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KCitons

USA DUI Deaths (and how they relate to other things)

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2 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Eliminate one, and you eliminate the other.

Impossible to eliminate alcohol.  Not only is it very easy for anyone to make themselves it actually occurs naturally.  I suppose you could try banning yeast, hops and barley.

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2 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Impossible to eliminate alcohol.  Not only is it very easy for anyone to make themselves it actually occurs naturally.  I suppose you could try banning yeast, hops and barley.

I can make the same argument about firearms. If there was a ban on firearms, the desire to 3d print them would skyrocket. The only reason it hasn't is because they are readily available. 

So, we are left with the same conundrum. Regulate the heck out of it to make it as safe as possible. However, that's not happening to the point that we are seeing results with either. 

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1 minute ago, KCitons said:

I can make the same argument about firearms. If there was a ban on firearms, the desire to 3d print them would skyrocket. The only reason it hasn't is because they are readily available. 

So, we are left with the same conundrum. Regulate the heck out of it to make it as safe as possible. However, that's not happening to the point that we are seeing results with either. 

Not even close to the same and why you and stealthy get told time and time again how they should be discussed separately.

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7 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Not even close to the same and why you and stealthy get told time and time again how they should be discussed separately.

Which part isn't close? The fact that people under legal age are gaining access to items? Or that innocent lives are lost each year because of it?

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12 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Which part isn't close? The fact that people under legal age are gaining access to items? Or that innocent lives are lost each year because of it?

How easy it is to make alcohol versus making guns.  Terrible comparison.

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5 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

How easy it is to make alcohol versus making guns.  Terrible comparison.

Since we are in the technology age, I would think more kids would have the skills to make a gun. We may not have the exact technology now. But think where 3d printing was 10 years ago. Do you think that technology is slowing down? I don't. 

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4 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Since we are in the technology age, I would think more kids would have the skills to make a gun. We may not have the exact technology now. But think where 3d printing was 10 years ago. Do you think that technology is slowing down? I don't. 

What would be easier to prevent, the making homemade guns or homemade alcohol?  Remember, alcohol occurs naturally.

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21 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

What would be easier to prevent, the making homemade guns or homemade alcohol?  Remember, alcohol occurs naturally.

Isn't this the argument "it won't work, so don't try"

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2 hours ago, KCitons said:

Your words. 

When I linked to articles where people were killed by drunk drivers while going to, or coming from, concerts and church, you chose to argue semantics. 

How else would a person explain this comment? I see it as you saying "people that drive on public roads accept the possibility that they could be killed by a drunk driver". But, using your argument, people that choose shouldn't accept the possibility of partaking in activities in a public place such as concert, churches, or schools. 

I guess I need to try to be more clear tonight.  I still dont see in that where I am saying that it is ok that people are dying via duis,  which seems to be what you think I am saying.  

The last quote was me saying that there are different risks involved with driving to a concert and sitting at a concert.  SC posting stories of accidents afterwards isn't the same thing, IMO.  

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1 hour ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Impossible to eliminate alcohol.  Not only is it very easy for anyone to make themselves it actually occurs naturally.  I suppose you could try banning yeast, hops and barley.

Did a little research for you. Did you know that:

Opium occurs naturally? 

Coca leaves occur naturally? 

Ephedra sinica occurs naturally?

Mushrooms occur naturally?

Sassafras roots occur naturally?

And yet the product or byproduct of those plants are illegal.

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3 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I guess I need to try to be more clear tonight.  I still dont see in that where I am saying that it is ok that people are dying via duis,  which seems to be what you think I am saying.  

The last quote was me saying that there are different risks involved with driving to a concert and sitting at a concert.  SC posting stories of accidents afterwards isn't the same thing, IMO.  

You said that you accept the possible risk of driving an ATV. And that risk is not the same as a risk that you accept sitting at a concert or school. 

The risk of being shot is not acceptable because you don't see any offset to the ownership of firearms. I accept the risk of being in a car accident because the use of automobiles is the offset. They add to our society. I don't accept the risk of being in a car accident due to a drunk driver. I can't have a reasonable expectation to remove all cars from the road. But, I can have a reasonable expectation to remove all drunk drivers from the road. 

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1 minute ago, KCitons said:

You said that you accept the possible risk of driving an ATV. And that risk is not the same as a risk that you accept sitting at a concert or school. 

The risk of being shot is not acceptable because you don't see any offset to the ownership of firearms. I accept the risk of being in a car accident because the use of automobiles is the offset. They add to our society. I don't accept the risk of being in a car accident due to a drunk driver. I can't have a reasonable expectation to remove all cars from the road. But, I can have a reasonable expectation to remove all drunk drivers from the road. 

So where is our disagreement? 

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Just now, KCitons said:

I don't accept the risk of being in a car accident due to a drunk driver. I can't have a reasonable expectation to remove all cars from the road. But, I can have a reasonable expectation to remove all drunk drivers from the road. 

What do you mean you don't accept that risk? How do you not accept it?

I don't see how removing all drunk drivers from the road is a reasonable expectation.

Admittedly, I've clearly jumped into the middle of a back-and-forth, so I could be misreading your post.

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2 minutes ago, dgreen said:

What do you mean you don't accept that risk? How do you not accept it?

I don't see how removing all drunk drivers from the road is a reasonable expectation.

Admittedly, I've clearly jumped into the middle of a back-and-forth, so I could be misreading your post.

It's not that I can do anything about it. It was comparative to KarmaPolice saying that being killed while going to a concert or church is not acceptable. Neither death is acceptable.

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48 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

What would be easier to prevent, the making homemade guns or homemade alcohol?  Remember, alcohol occurs naturally.

I'll even take your comment one step further. 

The materials of guns and bullets occurs naturally.

Iron and carbon occur naturally which, when combined, make steel. (guns)

Copper and zinc occur naturally which, when combined, make brass. (casings)

Lead occurs naturally. (bullets)

Charcoal, Sulfer, and potassium nitrate all occur naturally which, when combined (correctly), make gunpowder. (boom)

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4 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I thought this site had some good info.  Check out the data by age.

https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-alcohol-impaired-driving

I thought I heard/read recently that Millennials and Gen Z have the lowest % getting drivers licenses.   I wonder how much that factors into the drop in %s that chart shows.  

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18 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I thought this site had some good info.  Check out the data by age.

https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-alcohol-impaired-driving

The Federal Bureau of Investigation estimates 1,017,808 drivers were arrested for driving under the influence of alcohol or narcotics in 2016. The arrest rate works out to one arrest for about every 215 licensed drivers in the United States.

 

good gawd, that's a lot ............ education in schools to NOT drive drunk made an impact, harsher penalties for driving drunk makes an impact .............. trying to restrict those legally driving or legally drinking? not much of an overall impact at all IMO

focus on those who would drink and drive, don't focus on people taking a bottle of wine home or those driving who don't drink etc.

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25 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

The Federal Bureau of Investigation estimates 1,017,808 drivers were arrested for driving under the influence of alcohol or narcotics in 2016. The arrest rate works out to one arrest for about every 215 licensed drivers in the United States.

 

good gawd, that's a lot ............ education in schools to NOT drive drunk made an impact, harsher penalties for driving drunk makes an impact .............. trying to restrict those legally driving or legally drinking? not much of an overall impact at all IMO

focus on those who would drink and drive, don't focus on people taking a bottle of wine home or those driving who don't drink etc.

So how much was booze, how much was narcotics? Are prescription meds in your numbers too? 

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21 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

So how much was booze, how much was narcotics? Are prescription meds in your numbers too? 

I was focusing on drunk driving alcohol

You are right, DUI of anything is a huge problem.

using solution by liberals on other examples of things that lead to American deaths .... i'm assuming everyone would be open to attacking this crisis with the same strategy

#1 focus on laws and restrictions on legal law abiding people - as I suggested, everyone blow before they go. Massive PITA, but hey, for the greater good right?

#2 background checks before you buy alcohol, every time

#3 we might want to raise the age of driving to 21 years old. Yes, I know, PITA, its going to affect a lot of legal law abiding people but if we can save lives isn't it worth it ?

#4 focus on banning the least consumed alcohol that is in drunk driving - not the most, focus on the least. Some people would push for total ban I imagine.

#5 insurance to anyone who has alcohol in the home. You have a bottle of wine? You need liability insurance in case someone drinks it and does something stupid and hurts someone.

 

Just some ideas .............

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11 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

I was focusing on drunk driving alcohol

You are right, DUI of anything is a huge problem.

using solution by liberals on other examples of things that lead to American deaths .... i'm assuming everyone would be open to attacking this crisis with the same strategy

#1 focus on laws and restrictions on legal law abiding people - as I suggested, everyone blow before they go. Massive PITA, but hey, for the greater good right?

#2 background checks before you buy alcohol, every time

#3 we might want to raise the age of driving to 21 years old. Yes, I know, PITA, its going to affect a lot of legal law abiding people but if we can save lives isn't it worth it ?

#4 focus on banning the least consumed alcohol that is in drunk driving - not the most, focus on the least. Some people would push for total ban I imagine.

#5 insurance to anyone who has alcohol in the home. You have a bottle of wine? You need liability insurance in case someone drinks it and does something stupid and hurts someone.

 

Just some ideas .............

I just find some of your posts and links frustrating because you say you are talking about one thing, but then link to something that talks about something else or has multiple factors in the stats, like that one did.  

Also, do you honestly believe that every death is the same and therefore needs to be talked about in the same manner and with the same solutions?  And do you see everything through a R vs. D lens?  

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2 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

So how much was booze, how much was narcotics? Are prescription meds in your numbers too? 

Does it matter? DUI stands for Driving Under (the) Influence. We know that most states have laws against narcotics. 

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3 hours ago, KCitons said:

Does it matter? DUI stands for Driving Under (the) Influence. We know that most states have laws against narcotics. 

Of course stats matter, and it matters when people are just talking about booze when problem solving solutions for DUIs.  

Edited by KarmaPolice

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3 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Of course stats matter, and it matters when people are just talking about booze when problem solving solutions. 

How so?

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Just now, KCitons said:

How so?

I like to know when people talk about an issue, what we are talking about.  SC brings up booze, then posts stats about booze and narcotics, so I asked a question about what we were talking about.  

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4 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I like to know when people talk about an issue, what we are talking about.  SC brings up booze, then posts stats about booze and narcotics, so I asked a question about what we were talking about.  

Got it.

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5 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Got it.

Example- we see a spike in narcotics/prescription drugs instead of alcohol related incidents over a period of time and we probably have to talk about different solutions.  That's all I am getting at.  

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Just now, KarmaPolice said:

Example- we see a spike in narcotics/prescription drugs instead of alcohol related incidents over a period of time and we probably have to talk about different solutions.  That's all I am getting at.  

Still got it. 

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First-time DUIs are treated like traffic tickets in Wisconsin,

Quote

On paper it might look like a can’t-miss bipartisan initiative, but it’s not that easy in a state where beer is so much a part of the culture that the major league baseball team is called the Brewers. Powerful Republican opponents are already lining up against the idea, calling it impractical and too expensive.

Quote

At a time when some states have talked about lowering their DUI limit — Utah just set its threshold at a nation-low of 0.05% blood alcohol content — Wisconsin remains the only state in the nation that treats a first offense as a civil violation akin to a speeding ticket rather than a crime.

 

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I posted earlier how insanely lax the law was here since my co-worker is on his 3rd and it still feels like a wrist slap. 

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9 minutes ago, dgreen said:

@KCitons

I just remembered about this blog post from Tyler Cowen several years ago: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/04/the-culture-of-guns-the-culture-of-alcohol.html

Interesting post and comments. 

I've been trying to say the same thing for over a year. Obviously, not as eloquently or effectively. It's very similar to the comparison between taking care of immigrants vs taking care of our own homeless population. People say they are for both, but the energy these days seems to be focused on one and not the other. It makes it hard to take them seriously. 

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14 minutes ago, KCitons said:

I promised not to post DUI issues in the other thread. So, I'll post them here.

Australia made the change to ban guns due to mass shootings. However, 30% of their fatal crashes involve alcohol

Wonder why they haven't banned alcohol yet?

Australia has a lower drunk driving threshold than many countries (.05), which causes their fatality rate to seem higher than it would be if the threshold was .08.

At any rate, it sounds like Australia should take stronger measures to restrict and regulate alcohol.

:shrug:

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Teen Drivers: Get the Facts

Quote

Among male drivers between 15 and 20 years of age who were involved in fatal crashes in 2016, 32% were speeding at the time of the crash13 and 21% had been drinking.

Quote

In 2016, 15% of drivers aged 16 to 20 involved in fatal motor vehicle crashes had a BAC of .08% or higher.

Quote

In the 2017 national Youth Risk Behavior Survey, 16.5% of high school students reported that, within the previous month, they had ridden with a driver who had been drinking alcohol. Among students who drove, 5.5% reported having driven after drinking alcohol within the same one-month period.

Quote

In 2016, 58% of drivers aged 15 to 20 who were killed in motor vehicle crashes after drinking and driving were not wearing a seat belt.

 

We can complain about kids shooting other kids at schools, but from these studies, it looks like they are doing just as much harm to themselves or others by using alcohol. 

Can someone tell me the legal drinking age these days?

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We talk about our culture of guns in the USA.  How much more of the population participate in our drinking culture? 

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18 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

We talk about our culture of guns in the USA.  How much more of the population participate in our drinking culture? 

We talk about how it doesn't matter when it comes to guns. Why does it matter when it comes to alcohol. If people are dying, does it matter?

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50 minutes ago, KCitons said:

We talk about how it doesn't matter when it comes to guns. Why does it matter when it comes to alcohol. If people are dying, does it matter?

Talk about the gun culture not mattering? That is brought up a bit, especially when talking about noncompliance and not participating in any buy back plans.  

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7 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Talk about the gun culture not mattering? That is brought up a bit, especially when talking about noncompliance and not participating in any buy back plans.  

Not sure your point. Culture really has nothing to do with the gun issue any longer. We are beyond that. It would be the same as saying we should continue to have slaves because that was the culture 200 years ago. 

The more important question is why our society isn't as outraged about the deaths related to alcohol, as they are about gun deaths? The only excuse I have heard for not banning alcohol, is that we have tried to ban it in the past and it didn't work. Does that mean, if we ban guns, and it doesn't work, we just give up and accept the killings?

 

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21 minutes ago, KCitons said:

 

The more important question is why our society isn't as outraged about the deaths related to alcohol, as they are about gun deaths? 

We have answered and discussed that.  

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8 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

We have answered and discussed that.  

Is that the same as "thoughts and prayers"?

People keep saying that they are for tougher penalties for drunk drivers. Does it ever move past talk? I mentioned that gun control is going to be key part of the 2020 elections (they were a part of last years elections). Was alcohol even discussed by one candidate? If we are concerned about loss of innocent lives, we could save more by banning alcohol than guns. I already posted the studies in the other thread. Alcohol was key factor in many shootings. And is an indicator of future gun violence.

People keep saying that guns serve no purpose in society. I ask what purpose alcohol serves in our society?

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Candidates didnt field questions about climate change, 0 surprise booze isn't brought up as they cut to a half a dozen beer and Jim Beam commercials during the broadcast.  

Alcohol has health benefits, and what % of the adult population uses? 60%?   Combine that with probably not a single person you know being against tougher laws on duis.  There really isn't a ton to debate on the topic, so I am not sure why you are so surprised the thread doesn't have much traction. 

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21 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Candidates didnt field questions about climate change, 0 surprise booze isn't brought up as they cut to a half a dozen beer and Jim Beam commercials during the broadcast.  

Alcohol has health benefits, and what % of the adult population uses? 60%?   Combine that with probably not a single person you know being against tougher laws on duis.  There really isn't a ton to debate on the topic, so I am not sure why you are so surprised the thread doesn't have much traction. 

Based on your post, it sounds like you (and society) is okay with the number of deaths resulting from alcohol. As to the bolded, is it okay for people to say they are for tougher gun laws, but equally okay if no laws are changed? Talk the talk or walk the walk. Even the laws that are in place are not preventing anyone from getting alcohol. By contrast, there are those that want to ban certain (and possibly all) guns. 

Has anyone even floated the idea that we could save lots of lives by banning alcohol? What would the negative be by doing so? I hear anti gun people say that gun owners are selfish and only care about their precious guns. Protecting their right to dress up like Rambo. Aren't people against an alcohol ban just protecting their right to get drunk and act like as ###?

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1.  This isn't an either/or thing.  I could want both. 

2.  Ask the people who want to ban all guns. 

3.  I dont act like an ### when i'm drunk.  

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9 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

1.  This isn't an either/or thing.  I could want both. 

2.  Ask the people who want to ban all guns. 

3.  I dont act like an ### when i'm drunk.  

1. But they don't. There's no rally. There's no main stream media coverage of dui deaths. You could want it. But, do you do anything to make those changes happen. Do you call or write your local representatives asking for tougher laws? How many have done so asking for tougher gun laws?

2. Cop out answer. You've read enough of the gun thread to know the responses. 

3. I don't shoot up schools with my guns. Yet, all gun owners are going to feel the effects of gun regulations because of those that do commit mass shootings. Do all alcohol drinkers feel the effects of alcohol regulations due to those that kill someone by drinking and driving? 

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15 hours ago, KCitons said:

Teen Drivers: Get the Facts

 

We can complain about kids shooting other kids at schools, but from these studies, it looks like they are doing just as much harm to themselves or others by using alcohol. 

Can someone tell me the legal drinking age these days?

If it were lower than 21, all those stats you cited would be worse. 

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33 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

If it were lower than 21, all those stats you cited would be worse

Does that make it better?

My point was that we have clear laws on who is allowed to purchase alcohol. That doesn't seem to be stopping underage drinking. (or deaths). It was also pointing out the hypocrisy of saying that kids were dying by the hands of other kids with guns. This is also true when it comes to alcohol. 

There is discussion in the other thread about active shooter training at schools. And how traumatic it is for the students. Yet, there have been similar training around drunk driving at schools as well, where they show a mangled car or even drop a car from a crane to simulate the damage caused by impact. Isn't this traumatic as well? Is it having any effect?

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