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KCitons

USA DUI Deaths (and how they relate to other things)

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47 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

Do you use a loaf of bread for self defense?

Drops mic. 

I don't need to. I have a gun. 

Never bring a loaf of bread to a gun fight.

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1 minute ago, KCitons said:

I don't need to. I have a gun. 

Never bring a loaf of bread to a gun fight.

And you know to never use it unless you "intend to kill", right?

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7 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

And you know to never use it unless you "intend to kill", right?

Or you're hungry.

 

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5 hours ago, KCitons said:

Or you're hungry.

 

Are you going to use the gun like a spoon to eat a live animal?

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30 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

Are you going to use the gun like a spoon to eat a live animal?

Why would I? Unless the anti gun crowd is going to ban sporks. You know, because they look dangerous.

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18 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Why would I? Unless the anti gun crowd is going to ban sporks. You know, because they look dangerous.

Just trying to understand your belief that the intent of guns is not to kill.

But I've come to conclude that my mind can't do the bends, leaps and twists required to do the mental gymnastics you're using. That either makes you a misunderstood genius... or something else. 

Carry on. 

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10 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

Just trying to understand your belief that the intent of guns is not to kill.

But I've come to conclude that my mind can't do the bends, leaps and twists required to do the mental gymnastics you're using. That either makes you a misunderstood genius... or something else. 

Carry on. 

Guns don't have an intent. They are inanimate objects. 

If your talking about the intent of use by the owner, then I think the purpose of most owners is to use their guns to kill animals or to shoot at inanimate targets. Not to kill people.  You're stats showed that already. How are you doing the mental gymnastics where you state there are 40k firearm deaths and 100 million animals killed? The math shows that people buy their guns to kill animals. Which brings us back to one of my original complaints a couple of years ago (and one I asked @KarmaPolice directly) "Are you against hunting"? 

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1 minute ago, KCitons said:

Guns don't have an intent. They are inanimate objects. 

If your talking about the intent of use by the owner, then I think the purpose of most owners is to use their guns to kill animals or to shoot at inanimate targets. Not to kill people.  You're stats showed that already. How are you doing the mental gymnastics where you state there are 40k firearm deaths and 100 million animals killed? The math shows that people buy their guns to kill animals. Which brings us back to one of my original complaints a couple of years ago (and one I asked @KarmaPolice directly) "Are you against hunting"? 

People are animals. The guns don't care what kind of animal it is. It will still kill them. 

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1 minute ago, Politician Spock said:

People are animals. The guns don't care what kind of animal it is. It will still kill them. 

Then why did you give stats that broke them down into different categories? By your own admission they are different. 

And I don't believe shooting wild game is the same as shooting a human being. I would venture to guess you are in the minority on that as well. Along with your far left stance on banning guns.

You're the yin to SC's yang. 

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1 minute ago, KCitons said:

Then why did you give stats that broke them down into different categories? By your own admission they are different. 

And I don't believe shooting wild game is the same as shooting a human being. I would venture to guess you are in the minority on that as well. Along with your far left stance on banning guns.

You're the yin to SC's yang. 

Because I collected that data from two different sources. 

And I"m not saying they are the same. I'm stating what the purpose of a gun is. The purpose of a gun is to kill. The uses however can be criminal or non-criminal. It doesn't shock me at all that the non-criminal uses exceed the criminal uses. I would expect that result 

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10 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

Because I collected that data from two different sources. 

And I"m not saying they are the same. I'm stating what the purpose of a gun is. The purpose of a gun is to kill. The uses however can be criminal or non-criminal. It doesn't shock me at all that the non-criminal uses exceed the criminal uses. I would expect that result 

Then your point is lost. Unless you are trying to ban hunting. Which is why I asked this of posters some time ago. 

You can't say that guns are the problem when the number of people killed by firearms is .04% of the number of animals killed. It defines the purpose of guns as being for hunting. Not for harming people. The stats prove that. 

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Just now, KCitons said:

Then your point is lost. Unless you are trying to ban hunting. Which is why I asked this of posters some time ago. 

You can't say that guns are the problem when the number of people killed by firearms is .04% of the number of animals killed. It defines the purpose of guns as being for hunting. Not for harming people. The stats prove that. 

The discussion of what the purpose of a gun is has nothing to do with political agendas. It's simply stating a fact. The primary purpose of guns is to kill. FACT!

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2 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

The discussion of what the purpose of a gun is has nothing to do with political agendas. It's simply stating a fact. The primary purpose of guns is to kill. FACT!

And I'm saying that your political agenda is addressing a problem by targeting millions of hunters that are not the issue, instead of concentrating on the real problem. 

How many of your 40k firearm deaths were related to gangs? That number gets smaller and smaller.

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4 minutes ago, KCitons said:

And I'm saying that your political agenda is addressing a problem by targeting millions of hunters that are not the issue, instead of concentrating on the real problem. 

How many of your 40k firearm deaths were related to gangs? That number gets smaller and smaller.

My political agenda has ZERO impact on hunters... unless they would fail the training, testing and licensing process. 

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7 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

My political agenda has ZERO impact on hunters... unless they would fail the training, testing and licensing process. 

Zero? 

What about the cost involved with that training, testing, and licensing?

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26 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Zero? 

What about the cost involved with that training, testing, and licensing?

:cry::ptts:

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17 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

:cry::ptts:

Then you admit that your statement of ZERO impact is a lie. 

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42 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Then you admit that your statement of ZERO impact is a lie. 

If this is the negative you want to focus on in my political agenda, then have at it. 

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Just now, Politician Spock said:

If this is the negative you want to focus on in my political agenda, then have at it. 

Not really. It just shows that you are only looking at this from one side. You've not softened your stance at all, even after all this discussion. 

I've made concessions in the areas of background checks, magazine capacity, some testing/training, and limits on calibers for assault rifles. 

You keep making points about things like the purpose of guns (which was proved have zero effect on human deaths). 

It's obvious that your single agenda is to ban firearms. I get it. But, don't be surprised when people disagree with your stance.

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Just now, KCitons said:

Not really. It just shows that you are only looking at this from one side. You've not softened your stance at all, even after all this discussion. 

I've made concessions in the areas of background checks, magazine capacity, some testing/training, and limits on calibers for assault rifles. 

You keep making points about things like the purpose of guns (which was proved have zero effect on human deaths). 

It's obvious that your single agenda is to ban firearms. I get it. But, don't be surprised when people disagree with your stance.

I used to be a fundamentalist christian, hardcore conservative and 2nd amendment supporter. Ask anyone who posted on this board with me 10+ years ago. I've been on that side of the argument, and am ashamed of the claims I made and held to. Part of the reason I take such a stance with you is because I used to be you. 

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1 minute ago, Politician Spock said:

I used to be a fundamentalist christian, hardcore conservative and 2nd amendment supporter. Ask anyone who posted on this board with me 10+ years ago. I've been on that side of the argument, and am ashamed of the claims I made and held to. Part of the reason I take such a stance with you is because I used to be you. 

I'm flattered? Are you expecting to change my point of view?

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3 minutes ago, KCitons said:

I'm flattered? Are you expecting to change my point of view?

Are you open minded?

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50 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

Are you open minded?

I think so. But probably not the way you define it. 

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15 hours ago, Politician Spock said:

Are you open minded?

The guy's avatar on a magic football message board is a gun. Good luck.

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45 minutes ago, Apple Jack said:

The guy's avatar on a magic football message board is a gun. Good luck.

Is that what you see my avatar as? Just a gun?

Who has the closed mind?

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7 hours ago, Apple Jack said:

The guy's avatar on a magic football message board is a gun. Good luck.

It wasn't a rhetorical answer, as the answer was obvious. 

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On 4/25/2019 at 3:43 PM, KCitons said:

Link?  I'd like to know if they are including suicides and gang violence. Two things I believe should be thrown out of any stats.

How many more guns do we have vs other developed countries?

 

Why should those be removed from gun death stats?

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52 minutes ago, Terminalxylem said:

Why should those be removed from gun death stats?

Gang violence because this is a problem that will be least effected by a ban or increased regulations on guns. Many are already criminals and shouldn't be in possession of a firearm. Solve the gang problem and the gun problem goes away. 

Suicides are similar to abortion. A person should be allowed to make decisions about their own body. It's not a violent crime committed on oneself. 

The only reason that people are talking about gun regulation is due to the recent mass shootings. Nobody cared about gangs shooting each other 10 years ago. Now they "pretend" that they do because without acknowledging them, overall gun deaths is decreased.

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1 hour ago, KCitons said:

Gang violence because this is a problem that will be least effected by a ban or increased regulations on guns. Many are already criminals and shouldn't be in possession of a firearm. Solve the gang problem and the gun problem goes away. 

Suicides are similar to abortion. A person should be allowed to make decisions about their own body. It's not a violent crime committed on oneself. 

The only reason that people are talking about gun regulation is due to the recent mass shootings. Nobody cared about gangs shooting each other 10 years ago. Now they "pretend" that they do because without acknowledging them, overall gun deaths is decreased.

Is there any bull#### you wont say in service of your precious?

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wint‏ @dril

drunk driving may kill a lot of people, but it also helps a lot of people get to work on time, so, it;s impossible to say if its bad or not,


 

 

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28 minutes ago, Apple Jack said:

Is there any bull#### you wont say in service of your precious?

Care to explain why you think this?

This weekend is an good example. We had two shootings covered by the media. One being a synagogue shooting where 1 person was killed and 3 others were injured. The other was a shooting at a barbecue where 1 person was killed and 7 injured.

One was carried out with an AR15. The other appears to be handgun. One was a hate crime. The other is looking like it could be gang related. One has the shooter in custody. The other is still on the run. 

One of these stories is getting more attention than the other. The Baltimore barbecue shooting received it's initial coverage because it was thought to have taken place at a church. It was determined that one of the victims fled the scene and died near church. Now that it's not a hate crime, nobody cares.  

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On 4/26/2019 at 5:19 PM, KCitons said:

But your guns were purchased for hunting and target shooting. A very small reason was for home protection. And in all this time, you've never used them to protect yourself, or your family from an intruder. But, you have used them to hunt and target shoot. You would never use all of your guns at the same time to protect your house, so truth is you have one gun for home protection. The rest are for hunting. That's their primary purpose.

I've only purchased one gun in my life and that was my .22 rifle two years ago.  I bought it for shooting varmints around the house.  The rest of the guns I have are all shotguns and were handed down to me over the years and one was won at a sportsman's event.  I believe there were all originally purchased for deer and turkey hunting.

At some point you're going to have to admit to the fact of why guns were made.  It doesn't matter what my intent is for why I bought a gun, I know what it was designed to do.

Their primary purpose is to kill.  That's it.  It can not be argued.

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1 minute ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I've only purchased one gun in my life and that was my .22 rifle two years ago.  I bought it for shooting varmints around the house.  The rest of the guns I have are all shotguns and were handed down to me over the years and one was won at a sportsman's event.  I believe there were all originally purchased for deer and turkey hunting.

At some point you're going to have to admit to the fact of why guns were made.  It doesn't matter what my intent is for why I bought a gun, I know what it was designed to do.

Their primary purpose is to kill.  That's it.  It can not be argued.

Do you know how many times a gun is taken into the field and never fired? It's called hunting, not killing. At some point, you're going to have to admit that a large percentage of guns are not purchased to take a human life. 

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38 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Care to explain why you think this?

This weekend is an good example. We had two shootings covered by the media. One being a synagogue shooting where 1 person was killed and 3 others were injured. The other was a shooting at a barbecue where 1 person was killed and 7 injured.

One was carried out with an AR15. The other appears to be handgun. One was a hate crime. The other is looking like it could be gang related. One has the shooter in custody. The other is still on the run. 

One of these stories is getting more attention than the other. The Baltimore barbecue shooting received it's initial coverage because it was thought to have taken place at a church. It was determined that one of the victims fled the scene and died near church. Now that it's not a hate crime, nobody cares.  

He's saying that it's absolute nonsense to declare that "nobody cared about gangs shooting each other 10 years ago," which is what you said and what he bolded.

He's right. That statement is just absurd. Gang warfare and urban crime have been a consistent part of the national dialogue for decades. They've been making movies and TV shows about it forever. IMO people care about them far less now than they have at several points in our recent history. Politicians went so far over the top in trying to "get tough" on gang violence in the 90s that their actions and rhetoric are actually getting them in trouble today. 

And as @Apple Jack pointed out, the fact you would say something so obviously and ridiculously untrue in service of some throwaway argument about gun control rhetoric strongly suggests that you'll say pretty much anything in service of opposing gun control.

Edited by TobiasFunke
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6 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Do you know how many times a gun is taken into the field and never fired? It's called hunting, not killing. At some point, you're going to have to admit that a large percentage of guns are not purchased to take a human life. 

Sometimes I feel like you're having a debate with just yourself?  Who's been focusing on taking a human life in this conversation?  The only goal I've had with interacting with you on this is to get you to see and admit to why guns were created and what they are meant to do.  I have not said they their only purpose is to kill humans or deer or anything specific like that.  I am saying that their purpose is to kill and that is it.  I know they can be used for many other things just like everything else in the world. 

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3 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

He's saying that it's absolute nonsense to declare that "nobody cared about gangs shooting each other 10 years ago," which is what you said and what he bolded.

He's right. That statement is just absurd. Gang warfare and urban crime have been a consistent part of the national dialogue for decades. They've been making movies and TV shows about it forever. IMO people care about them far less now than they have at several points in our recent history. Politicians went so far over the top in trying to "get tough" on gang violence in the 90s that their actions and rhetoric are actually getting them in trouble today. 

And as @Apple Jack pointed out, the fact you would say something so obviously and ridiculously untrue in service of some throwaway argument about gun control rhetoric strongly suggests that you'll say pretty much anything in service of opposing gun control.

Wrong. 

The media and this board are prime examples of this. Look at the gun thread. Posters in there are in a rush to condemn the synagogue shooting and point out it was an AR15. Meanwhile, not a single mention of the Baltimore shooting. 

Why do you think that is?

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3 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Sometimes I feel like you're having a debate with just yourself?  Who's been focusing on taking a human life in this conversation?  The only goal I've had with interacting with you on this is to get you to see and admit to why guns were created and what they are meant to do.  I have not said they their only purpose is to kill humans or deer or anything specific like that.  I am saying that their purpose is to kill and that is it.  I know they can be used for many other things just like everything else in the world. 

Then you should be having a conversation with Politician Spock. 

People want to say the purpose of a gun is to kill. Implying that they are to kill humans. They then relate those numbers the way PS did up thread by saying 40k gun deaths. But, he also posts that 100 million animals were killed with a gun. 

So, if you were defining the purpose of a gun, it's not to kill humans. It's to hunt and kill animals. That should be at the forefront of any regulation. Because that's the primary purpose. 

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4 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Wrong. 

The media and this board are prime examples of this. Look at the gun thread. Posters in there are in a rush to condemn the synagogue shooting and point out it was an AR15. Meanwhile, not a single mention of the Baltimore shooting. 

Why do you think that is?

What in God's name are you talking about?

You said people didn't care about gang violence ten years ago. That is pretty clearly wrong. I'm confident that most anyone over the age of 35 or so who tracks politics or even pop culture would agree that, if anything, gang violence used to be a much bigger issue.  So you said a wrong, silly thing in service of your argument.  Apple Jack bolded it and correctly called you out for it. End of analysis. AR15s and Baltimore and the synagogue shooting and another thread have nothing to do with it.

Edited by TobiasFunke

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2 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Then you should be having a conversation with Politician Spock. 

People want to say the purpose of a gun is to kill. Implying that they are to kill humans. They then relate those numbers the way PS did up thread by saying 40k gun deaths. But, he also posts that 100 million animals were killed with a gun. 

So, if you were defining the purpose of a gun, it's not to kill humans. It's to hunt and kill animals. That should be at the forefront of any regulation. Because that's the primary purpose. 

I think you are making this into something more complex than it really needs to be.  All I'm asking you is what the purpose of a gun is, not all the random things it can be used for.

What is the purpose of a gun?

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8 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

What in God's name are you talking about?

You said people didn't care about gang violence ten years ago. That is pretty clearly wrong. I'm confident that most anyone over the age of 35 or so who tracks politics or even pop culture would agree that, if anything, gang violence used to be a much bigger issue.  So you said a wrong, silly thing in service of your argument.  Apple Jack bolded it and correctly called you out for it. End of analysis. AR15s and Baltimore and the synagogue shooting and another thread have nothing to do with it.

Had the Baltimore shooting been with an AR15 or been at a church (like was originally reported) the anti gun group would made a bigger deal. As it is, the same number of deaths (1) and more injured (7) in Baltimore wasn't even mentioned. 

Again, why do you think that is?

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3 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I think you are making this into something more complex than it really needs to be.  All I'm asking you is what the purpose of a gun is, not all the random things it can be used for.

What is the purpose of a gun?

Based on the use of the guns in this country, it's hunting. The are used to kill animals a million times more than they are to kill humans. 

 

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8 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Based on the use of the guns in this country, it's hunting. The are used to kill animals a million times more than they are to kill humans. 

 

It's an extremely simple question.  You're making it too difficult by getting into specifics.

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5 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

It's an extremely simple question.  You're making it too difficult by getting into specifics.

Not really. You admitted that the only gun you bought was to hunt with. 

I believe that you're expanding on the perception of the answer. If you say that a gun's sole purpose is to kill, some would equate that to killing people. When in reality, only .04 percent of the deaths are people. The rest are animals. Therefor the correct answer to your question is hunting. 

 

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2 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Not really. You admitted that the only gun you bought was to hunt with. 

I believe that you're expanding on the perception of the answer. If you say that a gun's sole purpose is to kill, some would equate that to killing people. When in reality, only .04 percent of the deaths are people. The rest are animals. Therefor the correct answer to your question is hunting. 

 

You either don't get it or are going out of your way to make this more difficult.  You continue to talk about what guns can be used for which can be whatever the hell anyone wants to but that's not why guns are made.  I can turn a gun into a lawn ornament if I want to but that's not what it's made for.  You really do not want to answer this do you?

What are guns designed to do?  (Hint: It's a one word answer)

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2 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

You either don't get it or are going out of your way to make this more difficult.  You continue to talk about what guns can be used for which can be whatever the hell anyone wants to but that's not why guns are made.  I can turn a gun into a lawn ornament if I want to but that's not what it's made for.  You really do not want to answer this do you?

What are guns designed to do?  (Hint: It's a one word answer)

Wrong. You know that there are guns made that aren't even used to hunt. So, to answer your question. Guns are designed to send a projectile down range at a target. 

You want to define them as a killing machine in order to tie them to killing people. When that's not their primary use by citizens in this country. 

What's a knife designed to do? 

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7 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Wrong. You know that there are guns made that aren't even used to hunt. So, to answer your question. Guns are designed to send a projectile down range at a target. 

You want to define them as a killing machine in order to tie them to killing people. When that's not their primary use by citizens in this country. 

What's a knife designed to do? 

A knife is designed to cut or puncture.  I believe knives were originally created as a tool and I am not sure when they started getting used for killing.  A gun is designed to kill, whether it be a human or some other kind of animal.  If you want to include something like a air gun then I will admit that is not designed to kill, but that's not what we've been talking about.

Guns were created to kill.  They are still designed to do so.  That is there general purpose.  Just like all things we create what we choose to use it for changes but that does not change what it was originally created for.

Edited by Hawkeye21

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8 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

A knife is designed to cut or puncture.  I believe knives were originally created as a tool and I am not sure when they started getting used for killing.  A gun is designed to kill, whether it be a human or some other kind of animal.  If you want to include something like a air gun then I will admit that is not designed to kill, but that's not what we've been talking about.

Guns were created to kill.  They are still designed to do so.  That is there general purpose.  Just like all things we create what we choose to use it for changes but that does not change what it was originally created for.

In the case of knives, they may have been created as a tool. But, are used more and more as a weapon.

In the case of guns, they may have been created to as a weapon. But are used more and more as a tool for hunting. 

If you want to take it a step further, there is nothing illegal about using a gun to kill animals. (it's called hunting) Overall it's a net positive due to revenue and animal population control. So when people say that the purpose of a gun is to kill. They are wanting to convey the message as though the purpose is to kill humans. Otherwise, what's the point of making the statement?

 

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It's interesting that the purpose of a knife is defined as being used to cut or puncture. But the purpose of a gun is to kill. Not to fire a projectile. 

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4 minutes ago, KCitons said:

In the case of knives, they may have been created as a tool. But, are used more and more as a weapon.

In the case of guns, they may have been created to as a weapon. But are used more and more as a tool for hunting. 

If you want to take it a step further, there is nothing illegal about using a gun to kill animals. (it's called hunting) Overall it's a net positive due to revenue and animal population control. So when people say that the purpose of a gun is to kill. They are wanting to convey the message as though the purpose is to kill humans. Otherwise, what's the point of making the statement?

 

Why do you keep going off in odd directions like this.  Why do you want to go further?  I know all of this and am not arguing against it.  I'm just seeing if you'll ever admit what guns are created for.  I agree with a lot of the same things as you when it comes to guns but I'm able to admit what they really are.

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