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How Effectively Could You Argue the Opposing View? (1 Viewer)

BobbyLayne

BobbyLayne

Footballguy
In The Crack-Up, F Scott Fitzgerald famously wrote "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function."

Just as a thought exercise, it might be fun for people to try to explain the other sides position. The thing is, we have devolved into tribalism on so many issues, and we - wrongly, I believe - conclude the other side is absolutely bonkers for believing what they do. We expend a lot of calories trying to be understood. I wonder if we might find more commonality if we instead try to understand a little better.

Could you, without resorting to backhanded swipes, slipping into derision, or subtly mocking, fully explain a viewpoint which is diametrically opposed to your own beliefs.

For instance, let's say you are something of a social justice warrior. You recognize white privilege is a real thing. Now explain why you (hypothetically) believe in rugged individualism, talk about bootstrapping and equality of opportunity in America.

OR

You know the data strongly supports the concept that mass incarceration of people of color - particularly blacks - is the result of systemic racism resulting from which crimes we choose, as a society, to emphasize in law enforcement. Mass incarceration was ignited by the war on drugs (blame Nixon or Reagan), was pumped up by draconian sentencing and is now sustained by a “prison industrial complex” that puts profit before humane treatment and rehabilitation. Lay all that aside and argue in favor of longer terms of imprisonment, mandatory sentencing, capital punishment, and/or argue why incarceration is the most effective means of crime prevention.

Feel free to front load or append your actual position so as to not confuse anyone about what you actually believe.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
I think I could do a decent but not great job advocating certain libertarian/conservative positions that I disagree with.  I would be terrible at arguing for Trump’s positions but so are his actual supporters.
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Agreed.  Conservativism would be an easy defense; moreso maybe than liberalism.  Trumpism.....don't know how you argue for that. 

 
As a person who had to develop a thorough understanding of the dictates of animalistic self in order to seek ways to transcend them, i could make Joseph Goebbels look like Perez Hilton

 
I am the most conservative member of my circle of friends, and the least conservative member of my office. I find myself regularly defending and arguing against both sides of many issues.

My friends tend to be open minded to conservative viewpoints, largely because A) they are not extreme left-wingers, and B) they are not crazy.

My co-workers, on the other hand, are birther types. They are impervious to rational arguments.

 
I generally know the counter position to the position I hold.  I think FG says it best.  I absolutely know the counterpoint to my positions, but I rarely hear them in opposition to my point.  It's always some other rotten word salad attempts to disagree.  I can't create those rotten word salads for the sake of disagreeing.

 
Can't do it. But my opponents in political philosophy can't make their own arguments, either. At least we haven't seen any since the '16 election.

 
BobbyLayne said:
Could you, without resorting to backhanded swipes, slipping into derision, or subtly mocking, fully explain a viewpoint which is diametrically opposed to your own beliefs.
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I feel like I can, and it’s a good idea to do internally to ensure you’re landing in the right place for you or just to prepare for counter arguments. - The Age of Trump is different though, it’s distorted things. You can argue on 1. principle and 2. facts. But the problem with Trump is that it’s about 1. supporting Trump the man and nothing else and 2. ignoring facts and even viewing the reporting them as animus. I can’t do that, I’ve never been able to.

 
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Perhaps the biggest divide in this country is the belief in the extent of the existence of white previledge and institutional racism.  One side blames society as mostly being responsible for the unequal outcomes and one side doesn't.  

 
Sure.  I've always liked debate, and part of my job involves advocating for my academic unit even when I'm not personally convinced of the arguments I'm putting forth.

 
The Commish said:
This doesn't answer his question.  He's wanting to know what/who those not blaming society blame for the inequality.
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Yeah it’s not an easy question for him to answer without sounding like a racist.  If society isn’t to blame for inequality, it seems to me that the only remaining answer would be that racial inequality is the result of certain races being inferior to others.  Jon’s probably not gonna go there.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
Yeah it’s not an easy question for him to answer without sounding like a racist.  If society isn’t to blame for inequality, it seems to me that the only remaining answer would be that racial inequality is the result of certain races being inferior to others.  Jon’s probably not gonna go there.
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The 21st century sidestep is to blame libs' social safety net programs, which creates an ongoing dependency. A "prison," if you like.

 
The Commish said:
This doesn't answer his question.  He's wanting to know what/who those not blaming society blame for the inequality.
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Put another way...I don’t think anyone (including jon_mx) would deny Black America had to survive a century (1865-1965) in the most hostile environment imaginable, enduring racism sanctioned and sponsored by their own government.

How do we then explain what has happened to income inequality since then? Whites used to make 3-4 times blacks pre-WWII. After Civil Rights legislation was passed, that has ballooned to 13:1. Though when you remove durable goods - appliances, furniture, vehicles - white wealth is 70 times black wealth.

Unemployment - twice as high amongst blacks. That’s comparing apples to apples, across every level of education attained. Pick a decade, any decade.

Incarceration - 1 in 15 black males are in jail rn (1 in 9 for the 18-24 cohort.) Its 1 in 36 for Hispanics, 1 in 108 for Caucasians. Y’all think that’s explained by rugged individualism?

You’re 21 times (2100%) more likely to be shot by police if you’re a black male rather than a white male. 

We won’t even bring up housing lending, redlining, FHA policy, Social Security Act of 1935, profiling, juvenile courts, jury selection, judicial misconduct, war on drugs...nah, we colorblind now, it’s all good.

Sorry about the last 400 years but at least we’re on equal ground now!

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
Yeah it’s not an easy question for him to answer without sounding like a racist.  If society isn’t to blame for inequality, it seems to me that the only remaining answer would be that racial inequality is the result of certain races being inferior to others.  Jon’s probably not gonna go there.
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Or....he could simply refuse to acknowledge that the inequality exists and claim we are starting from a false premise, which I have heard on this particular board many times before.

 
BobbyLayne said:
To answer my own OP, I do not think I could effectively explain why white privilege is a myth or institutional racism doesn’t exist.
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:goodposting:

This would be a tough one for me as well.  I'd throw it on the pile with trying to argue for a flat earth and the like.

 
BobbyLayne said:
To answer my own OP, I do not think I could effectively explain why white privilege is a myth or institutional racism doesn’t exist.
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding the OP. I thought the point was whether you could see both sides of an argument. The white privilege/institutional racism argument is quickly countered by the individual responsibility / 'other ethnic groups did it' argument, and vice versa. Is the question could you have the intestinal metal to argue for something you don't believe in and might even loathe? No, of course not, hopefully even people we disagree with are being intellectually honest to their own values at least.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the OP. I thought the point was whether you could see both sides of an argument. The white privilege/institutional racism argument is quickly countered by the individual responsibility / 'other ethnic groups did it' argument, and vice versa. Is the question could you have the intestinal metal to argue for something you don't believe in and might even loathe? No, of course not, hopefully even people we disagree with are being intellectually honest to their own values at least.
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Yep, I could make those rugged individualism / bootstrap arguments & fairly present them; but it would require a fair amount of insta-amnesia. Same same if I had to lay out justification for why supply side & trickle down economics are justification for tax breaks for the wealthy.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
The white privilege/institutional racism argument is quickly countered by the individual responsibility / 'other ethnic groups did it' argument, and vice versa.
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Right, but if "individual responsibility" is the answer to why some are much poorer than others and blacks are disproportionately poorer than other races, then it begs the question: Why aren't blacks more individually responsible people? I'm not sure I've heard an argument for that. Or is there another angle to this argument that I'm forgetting?

 
dgreen said:
Right, but if "individual responsibility" is the answer to why some are much poorer than others and blacks are disproportionately poorer than other races, then it begs the question: Why aren't blacks more individually responsible people? I'm not sure I've heard an argument for that. Or is there another angle to this argument that I'm forgetting?
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The answer I typically get:

:shrug:

(Aside: also, why is the “IDK shrug” emoji darker than the others??)

 
Let’s step back off this particular issue for a moment....

While most of the time I abhor the faulty logic of whataboutism/ “both sides” argumentation, it’s def true that in today’s climate - not just political discussion, this may be societal - it seems like both sides view the other as irrational or insane.

I thought introducing this thought exercise would ameliorate that. But folks only participated in the abstract, no one actually tried to do what they said they thought they could do.

Let’s reframe this...

Do you believe the opposing view from yours is rooted in facts, logic, sincerity and truth? Or do you think the explanation for what they believe is “they’re bat#### crazy” or “they’re a bunch of dumbasses” or “those people are weak willed pansies”?

We’re gonna say that about 60-70M of our fellow Americans? “They” are exactly like “us”.

The underlying objective (for me) is trying to 1) better understand the current global rise in authoritarianism, and 2) better appreciate what brought us to the point where tribalism rather than discourse is the norm.

 
BobbyLayne said:
Let’s reframe this...

Do you believe the opposing view from yours is rooted in facts, logic, sincerity and truth?
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Yes, absolutely.  There are people just as bright as I am who believe the exact opposite of everything I believe, and I have no reason to think that they've reached those positions from anything other than a good-faith search for the truth.  

There are a lot of cranks out there who stumble into their beliefs in a completely irrational and unreasonable manner.  But those folks aren't worth engaging with.  If you spend your time dunking on the stupidest and craziest spokespeople from "the other side," you're really just engaged in strawmanning.  

 
BobbyLayne said:
Let’s step back off this particular issue for a moment....

While most of the time I abhor the faulty logic of whataboutism/ “both sides” argumentation, it’s def true that in today’s climate - not just political discussion, this may be societal - it seems like both sides view the other as irrational or insane.

I thought introducing this thought exercise would ameliorate that. But folks only participated in the abstract, no one actually tried to do what they said they thought they could do.

Let’s reframe this...

Do you believe the opposing view from yours is rooted in facts, logic, sincerity and truth? Or do you think the explanation for what they believe is “they’re bat#### crazy” or “they’re a bunch of dumbasses” or “those people are weak willed pansies”?

We’re gonna say that about 60-70M of our fellow Americans? “They” are exactly like “us”.

The underlying objective (for me) is trying to 1) better understand the current global rise in authoritarianism, and 2) better appreciate what brought us to the point where tribalism rather than discourse is the norm.
Click to expand...
This a truly a timely exercise, thansk for bringing this up Bobby.  I have a very good friend who is the dicitinary definition of an ardent Trump supporter and she and I have gone round and round on many topics and issues and one thing we TRY to keep in mind at all times is to be civil and to understand that she is not insane and I am not a ####### fruitloop.  It isnt easy but it has at times allowed us to voice our thoughts in a more clear manner than would happen if we werre on guard for slights at the first instance.  Not sure either of us has persuaded the other much but she has a cleared understanding of me and my pov and I have a clearer understanding of her and her pov

 
I think the majority of people are too emotionally invested in these issues to take a step back and see both sides.  If you go into a debate close-minded, you limit your growth as a person. 

In high school I had to take a semester of debate.  We were broken into small teams and given a topic.  The twist was that you didn't know which side of the topic you had to debate until the day of the event.  It was an excellent exercise to see both sides of the issue.  You were forced to develop a point, a counter point and follow ups to each. 

In this political climate I don't think the average person is capable of arguing both sides.  

 
Between "LOCK HER UP!!" and "Impeach the mfer!" we have a lot of bad blood and folks are taking sides, dodgeballs at hand, ready to bloddy the nose of anyone on the other side.   Headshots are now the norm.

 
BobbyLayne said:
The answer I typically get:

:shrug:

(Aside: also, why is the “IDK shrug” emoji darker than the others??)
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I think "understanding" is important when discussing views that are opposite of yours and this is a good topic focused on that. But, I can also look back on my own past and realize that I didn't even understand some of my own arguments at times, and I'm sure that's still true in many areas. I know I've held a certain view on a topic, presented an argument in favor of my view, been challenged on that argument by someone who knows what they are talking about, and my only response is :shrug:  because I really didn't fully understand my own position or the arguments I was repeating in support of my position. Today, I hold far fewer opinions than I used to. My position is "I don't know" on many more topics than before. I used to have opinions on so many things that I had no business having an opinion.

My wife used to always say to me "You always think you're way is the right way." To which I'd respond, "Of course I do, that's what makes it my way. I wouldn't have it be 'my way' if I didn't think it was the right way." Take any individual topic and I'm going to say that I think I'm right (or that I don't have an opinion). If I thought I was wrong then my opinion would change and I'd be right again! However, on a macro level, I can say that I'm wrong about some things, maybe even a lot of things. I know that I'm wrong about stuff. I just have to look at my past and realize that I've changed opinions on things which means I was wrong at some point (either wrong in my previous opinion or my current one or both).

 
BobbyLayne said:
To answer my own OP, I do not think I could effectively explain why white privilege is a myth or institutional racism doesn’t exist.
Click to expand...
Here is the countervailing argument I understand about those two topics - 

It is not that they do not exist, it is that they beg the question of "what should we do about them," and the answers to that question are not satisfactory or fair.  If a white person has benefited from their race, but has not exhibited any racist behavior, it is not fair that they are punished for their race.  To punish that person would be, by definition, racism, which all reasonable people agree is wrong.  Similarly, "institutional racism" says that systems are set up to benefit or detriment certain races.  But what should we do?  Affirmative action is also racist and therefore wrong.  Further, it suggests that there ought to be an equality of outcome, instead of an equality of opportunity.  The former is untenable, the latter is desired by all reasonable people.

Instead, what should be done is punishment of actions.  If a person exhibits racist behavior, they should be condemned and offered education.  If an institution has racists policies, written or unwritten, they should be changed, by force of law if necessary.

 
dgreen said:
I think "understanding" is important when discussing views that are opposite of yours and this is a good topic focused on that. But, I can also look back on my own past and realize that I didn't even understand some of my own arguments at times, and I'm sure that's still true in many areas. I know I've held a certain view on a topic, presented an argument in favor of my view, been challenged on that argument by someone who knows what they are talking about, and my only response is :shrug:  because I really didn't fully understand my own position or the arguments I was repeating in support of my position. Today, I hold far fewer opinions than I used to. My position is "I don't know" on many more topics than before. I used to have opinions on so many things that I had no business having an opinion.

My wife used to always say to me "You always think you're way is the right way." To which I'd respond, "Of course I do, that's what makes it my way. I wouldn't have it be 'my way' if I didn't think it was the right way." Take any individual topic and I'm going to say that I think I'm right (or that I don't have an opinion). If I thought I was wrong then my opinion would change and I'd be right again! However, on a macro level, I can say that I'm wrong about some things, maybe even a lot of things. I know that I'm wrong about stuff. I just have to look at my past and realize that I've changed opinions on things which means I was wrong at some point (either wrong in my previous opinion or my current one or both).
Click to expand...
This resonates. When we are in our 20s - early 30s, we think we know everything. Partly wisdom, partly grace, but as I’ve grown through my 40s and 50s, I have found “I don’t know” is something I should be completely comfortable with as an answer.

 
I have always been a moderate conservative - but the last 3 years serving on the Board of Education has really opened my eyes and changed my position to the point that barring a few issues on the far left and a few issues on the far right I could easily classify myself as a Democrat or a Republican and play the part without much effort.

Right issues I struggle with Corporate Welfare and the Death Penalty

Left Issues I struggle with Abortion and Socialism (extreme left view of this)

I am sure there are other issues on both sides that I would struggle with but those are the first that came to mind.

 
jon_mx said:
It needs to come down to individual responsibility.  It is not white privilege or institutional racism which creates these largely segregated inner city ghettos. 
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You still believe it all boils down to individual responsibility? Cuz at 7 it's marginal right?

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Yes, absolutely.  There are people just as bright as I am who believe the exact opposite of everything I believe, and I have no reason to think that they've reached those positions from anything other than a good-faith search for the truth.  
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Meh - if they voted for Trump or are religious I can pretty much rule out that they reached those positions from a good-faith search for the truth.

 
BobbyLayne said:
Put another way...I don’t think anyone (including jon_mx) would deny Black America had to survive a century (1865-1965) in the most hostile environment imaginable, enduring racism sanctioned and sponsored by their own government. 

How do we then explain what has happened to income inequality since then? Whites used to make 3-4 times blacks pre-WWII. After Civil Rights legislation was passed, that has ballooned to 13:1. Though when you remove durable goods - appliances, furniture, vehicles - white wealth is 70 times black wealth. 

Unemployment - twice as high amongst blacks. That’s comparing apples to apples, across every level of education attained. Pick a decade, any decade.

Incarceration - 1 in 15 black males are in jail rn (1 in 9 for the 18-24 cohort.) Its 1 in 36 for Hispanics, 1 in 108 for Caucasians. Y’all think that’s explained by rugged individualism? 

You’re 21 times (2100%) more likely to be shot by police if you’re a black male rather than a white male. 

We won’t even bring up housing lending, redlining, FHA policy, Social Security Act of 1935, profiling, juvenile courts, jury selection, judicial misconduct, war on drugs...nah, we colorblind now, it’s all good.

Sorry about the last 400 years but at least we’re on equal ground now! 
Click to expand...
Why does something which happened over the last 400 years matter? Most folks start with nothing.  I received nothing from my dad, and my mom was dirt poor.  It matters nothing if 1% of my genes or 99% of my genes came from slaves or slave holders or none of the above.  Yes African-Americans are incarcerated at alarming rates and they do not accumulate wealth.  But why do blacks, unlike every other ethnic group, not eventually move out of ghettos?  Why do they remain so segregated and live in the most dangerous neighborhoods with horrendous schools and learning conditions?  Barriers have been removed.  Racism is no longer tolerated by the vast majority of people.  Institutions have policies which bend over backwards to be friendly to minorities.  Schools have lowered the bar for entrance.  Government provides preferential treatment in hiring and contracting.  Inner city police tend to be made up of mostly minorities and have strict rules and training concerning racial profiling.   What specific policies and actions continue to hold down African-Americans from succeeding?  A immigrant with nothing but the shirt on their backs are far more likely to succeed.  At some point they need to realize that white privilege and institutional racism are mostly ghosts of the past and they must move on and become personally responsible for their own success or failure.   

 
dgreen said:
Right, but if "individual responsibility" is the answer to why some are much poorer than others and blacks are disproportionately poorer than other races, then it begs the question: Why aren't blacks more individually responsible people? I'm not sure I've heard an argument for that. Or is there another angle to this argument that I'm forgetting?
Click to expand...
Individual responsibility falls by the wayside pretty quickly once you acknowledge "we don't know what we don't know" as a concept exists and is woven into the core of all these discussions.  It opens one's eyes to the reality that education is not equal opportunity in this country.  The core answer to your question about black people and responsibility is education and exposure to something outside of their incredibly small ecosystem.  People resist this with everything they have because once they accept it as a reality, they have to also accept the reality that racism is still alive and well in this country and woven throughout the system we have.

 
The Commish said:
Individual responsibility falls by the wayside pretty quickly once you acknowledge "we don't know what we don't know" as a concept exists and is woven into the core of all these discussions.  It opens one's eyes to the reality that education is not equal opportunity in this country.  The core answer to your question about black people and responsibility is education and exposure to something outside of their incredibly small ecosystem.  People resist this with everything they have because once they accept it as a reality, they have to also accept the reality that racism is still alive and well in this country and woven throughout the system we have.
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This sounds like "your side's" argument and not the "other side's" argument, though. I'm familiar with the many things the "other side" doesn't think are causing this (as seen in @jon_mx previous post), but I haven't seen an argument for what is causing this. I'd like to understand that argument.

 
Thorn said:
Here is the countervailing argument I understand about those two topics - 

It is not that they do not exist, it is that they beg the question of "what should we do about them," and the answers to that question are not satisfactory or fair.  If a white person has benefited from their race, but has not exhibited any racist behavior, it is not fair that they are punished for their race.  To punish that person would be, by definition, racism, which all reasonable people agree is wrong.  Similarly, "institutional racism" says that systems are set up to benefit or detriment certain races.  But what should we do?  Affirmative action is also racist and therefore wrong.  Further, it suggests that there ought to be an equality of outcome, instead of an equality of opportunity.  The former is untenable, the latter is desired by all reasonable people.

Instead, what should be done is punishment of actions.  If a person exhibits racist behavior, they should be condemned and offered education.  If an institution has racists policies, written or unwritten, they should be changed, by force of law if necessary.
Click to expand...
Actually, the majority of whites do not believe that white previledge exists or at least is not significant.  It is a concept in this forum which is as accepted as the sky is blue.   

 
Pretty easy.

Talk like a bumbling idiot.  Talk about how we need big government, raise taxes, impeach Trump and I would sound like the typical liberal.

 
jon_mx said:
Why does something which happened over the last 400 years matter? Most folks start with nothing.  I received nothing from my dad, and my mom was dirt poor.  It matters nothing if 1% of my genes or 99% of my genes came from slaves or slave holders or none of the above.  Yes African-Americans are incarcerated at alarming rates and they do not accumulate wealth.  But why do blacks, unlike every other ethnic group, not eventually move out of ghettos?  Why do they remain so segregated and live in the most dangerous neighborhoods with horrendous schools and learning conditions?  Barriers have been removed.  Racism is no longer tolerated by the vast majority of people.  Institutions have policies which bend over backwards to be friendly to minorities.  Schools have lowered the bar for entrance.  Government provides preferential treatment in hiring and contracting.  Inner city police tend to be made up of mostly minorities and have strict rules and training concerning racial profiling.   What specific policies and actions continue to hold down African-Americans from succeeding?  A immigrant with nothing but the shirt on their backs are far more likely to succeed.  At some point they need to realize that white privilege and institutional racism are mostly ghosts of the past and they must move on and become personally responsible for their own success or failure.   
Click to expand...
Do you think another ethnic group that faced the exact same treatment as African-Americans over the entire course of our nation's history would be, on average, better off than African-Americans are today? If so, why? 

Also can I get a link to support the statement that "an immigrant with nothing but the shirt on their backs are far more likely to succeed" than an African-American? TIA.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Do you think another ethnic group that faced the exact same treatment as African-Americans over the entire course of our nation's history would be, on average, better off than African-Americans are today? If so, why? 

Also can I get a link to support the statement that "an immigrant with nothing but the shirt on their backs are far more likely to succeed" than an African-American? TIA.
Click to expand...


Some Examples

More than half of the foreign-born population are homeowners. In 2012, 51 percent of immigrant heads of household owned their own homes, compared with 66 percent of native-born heads of household. Among immigrants, 65 percent of naturalized citizens owned their own homes in 2012.

Less than one in five immigrants live in poverty, and they are no more likely to use social services than the native-born Americans. In 2012, 19.1 percent of immigrants lived in poverty, while 15.4 percent of the native-born population lived in poverty. Of the foreign born, the two largest groups living in poverty were the 3.2 million people who emigrated from Mexico and the 1.4 million people who emigrated from either South or East Asia. Despite of this, studies have consistently shown that immigrants use social programs such as Medicaid and Supplemental Security Income at similar rates to native households.

The 20 million U.S.-born children of immigrants are significantly better off financially than their immigrant parents. The median annual household income of second-generation Americans in 2012 was $58,100, just $100 below the national average. This was significantly higher than the median annual household income of their parents at $45,800

 
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