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Los Angeles County Teachers on STRIKE! (1 Viewer)

timschochet said:
600,000 students, one of the largest school districts in the country (80% of the students are at poverty level). The strike is not about salary- it’s about class size: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/education/2019/01/10/why-los-angeles-teachers-are-ready-strike-over-huge-class-sizes/
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I thought California has one of the best economies in the world?  Do they not prioritize education?   How are 80% of the students at poverty level in such a rich state?

 
I totally get where these teachers are coming from. But there are logistical problems with a strike over class size. If it was over salary it’s easy to resolve. Both sides agree to a number they can live with and you’re done. But decreasing class size involves expanding schools and hiring more teachers- it’s a much more complicated problem to solve. So this may take a while. 

 
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timschochet said:
I totally get where these teachers are coming from. But there are logistical problems with a strike over class size. If it was over salary it’s easy to resolve. Both sides agree to a number they can live with and you’re done. But decreasing class size involves expanding schools and hiring more teachers- it’s a much more complicated problem to solve. So this may take a while. 
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My brother is a teacher in LA county schools. He was home over Christmas break and we talked about the strike probability and issues quite a bit. Class sizes may be part of it, but there were a host of things he mentioned were sticking points. One huge one he said was public schools vs. charter schools and the amount of state resources which go to charter schools vs. the public schools. Public schools definitely get the short end of the stick in comparison and I suppose class sizes play into that. 

 
dgreen said:
I find this number to be very hard to believe.
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This, from 2015, indicates a poverty rate of 31.4%

County-wide, there are 1.6m children ages 5-17. Of those 1.6m, 390k live in poverty. The LA school district has about 650k students, according to the first link above. So, about 1m kids go to private schools or are home schooled or don't go to any school? Obviously that's going to mostly be private school. Even if we assume all 390k kids living in poverty go to public schools, that's "only" 60%. Not sure where they get their 80% number. I see the 80% number in the OP article and another link I found, but neither seem to say where the number came from.

 
dgreen said:
This, from 2015, indicates a poverty rate of 31.4%

County-wide, there are 1.6m children ages 5-17. Of those 1.6m, 390k live in poverty. The LA school district has about 650k students, according to the first link above. So, about 1m kids go to private schools or are home schooled or don't go to any school? Obviously that's going to mostly be private school. Even if we assume all 390k kids living in poverty go to public schools, that's "only" 60%. Not sure where they get their 80% number. I see the 80% number in the OP article and another link I found, but neither seem to say where the number came from.
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I don’t know where it came from either, but this morning there was an interview with Kamela Harris and she repeated it as well. The number stunned me when I first heard it. 

 
T J said:
My brother is a teacher in LA county schools. He was home over Christmas break and we talked about the strike probability and issues quite a bit. Class sizes may be part of it, but there were a host of things he mentioned were sticking points. One huge one he said was public schools vs. charter schools and the amount of state resources which go to charter schools vs. the public schools. Public schools definitely get the short end of the stick in comparison and I suppose class sizes play into that. 
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That’s interesting. In local news, and in statements by the head of the union, you certainly get the impression that class size is the key issue. But maybe there is more. 

The charter school complaint is interesting because as I mentioned, I know some parents that for them it’s the ONLY public school option they will attend. And of course isn’t Betsy Devos pushing for more, not less money to be diverted to charter schools? 

 
IvanKaramazov said:
The United States spends more money educating its young people than any other nation.
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This is correct, and it’s an argument used by conservatives every time there is a proposal to throw more money at public schools. It’s not without merit. Why are we spending even more money to prop up a system that doesn’t work in the first place? Or so goes the argument. 

The problem with the argument IMO is that conservatives don’t seem to propose any promising alternatives. Their most common solution, to provide vouchers for private education alternatives, would actually weaken public education further. I think the goal should be to improve public education, not destroy it. I’m all ears on how to do so. 

 
Interesting

On class size, Los Angeles Unified has an average of 26 students per class. Of the 10 largest school districts in California, only one has a smaller average class size than Los Angeles.

i would be more concerned about the districts pushing 50 kids/class as mentioned in the article.  

Anything over 35 used to be the limit in my area. 

 
knowledge dropper said:
Interesting

On class size, Los Angeles Unified has an average of 26 students per class. Of the 10 largest school districts in California, only one has a smaller average class size than Los Angeles.

i would be more concerned about the districts pushing 50 kids/class as mentioned in the article.  

Anything over 35 used to be the limit in my area. 
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You just cherry picked that quote from the article. It goes on to point out how misleading those numbers are, and how high school classes in the district exceed 40 students per class. 

This is not the first time you have deliberately cherry picked quotes. Are you incapable of making arguments without resorting to dishonesty? Or are you just eager to emulate the guy in the White House you admire so much? 

 
timschochet said:
This is correct, and it’s an argument used by conservatives every time there is a proposal to throw more money at public schools. It’s not without merit. Why are we spending even more money to prop up a system that doesn’t work in the first place? Or so goes the argument. 

The problem with the argument IMO is that conservatives don’t seem to propose any promising alternatives. Their most common solution, to provide vouchers for private education alternatives, would actually weaken public education further. I think the goal should be to improve public education, not destroy it. I’m all ears on how to do so. 
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That's fair.  I just wanted to point that it's factually wrong to say that the US doesn't prioritize education.  We invest a ton of resources in education -- whether and how they might be used more effectively is really the issue.

 
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derek245583 said:
How did it get to this point?
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That would take hours to answer. And in the end you might not have a better picture than you do now. 

But to summarize: well intentioned mistakes, stupidity, incompetence, avoidance of concerns built up over years and decades by the public and politicians. And specifically in the form of Proposition 13, a statewide insistence on keeping property taxes low. 

 
timschochet said:
You just cherry picked that quote from the article. It goes on to point out how misleading those numbers are, and how high school classes in the district exceed 40 students per class. 

This is not the first time you have deliberately cherry picked quotes. Are you incapable of making arguments without resorting to dishonesty? Or are you just eager to emulate the guy in the White House you admire so much? 
Click to expand...
Wow. 

I’m pretty sure if we sat down and discussed we would be on the same side of this argument.  A lot of my family were inner city school educators.  I also have a school finance background. The number (26) has a lot of variables and factors behind it (e.g. % with special needs).  It was the 50 kids per class that was astounding to me and those districts had not been an issue.  

 
knowledge dropper said:
Wow. 

I’m pretty sure if we sat down and discussed we would be on the same side of this argument.  A lot of my family were inner city school educators.  I also have a school finance background. The number (26) has a lot of variables and factors behind it (e.g. % with special needs).  It was the 50 kids per class that was astounding to me and those districts had not been an issue.  
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Maybe we would. But my reaction was based on your cherry picking and your history of dishonesty in political discussions. 

 
derek245583 said:
How did it get to this point?
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Mainly because of teacher pay. A lot of people cannot afford to live on a teacher’s salary pushing them to other professions thereby creating a teacher shortage and larger class sizes. 

 
T J said:
Mainly because of teacher pay. A lot of people cannot afford to live on a teacher’s salary pushing them to other professions thereby creating a teacher shortage and larger class sizes. 
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School facilities play a part in this as well. You can only add so many temporary trailers on school lots.  Modernizing/Expanding schools has been on the backburner for decades all over the country.  Infrastructure in inner city and rural schools in many areas is shoddy at best.  

 
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OrtonToOlsen said:
Immigration...legal or not...obviously impacts population.  But it really doesn't matter where these kids are coming from.  They just count as students.  It is up to the district to ensure there are enough classrooms/teachers.
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I really have no clue how this works, but I was always under the impression that property tax was a major driver in funding for public schools. Is that true/not true?

If true, I would think undocumented immigrants are less likely to own homes resulting in lower property tax collection yet they still send kids to schools.

Could be way off though. Just spit balling.

We just passed a levy in our SD to build a bigger school. They haven't even broken ground yet and the school is already too small. So now they have to go back and try and pass a bigger one.

 
T J said:
Mainly because of teacher pay. A lot of people cannot afford to live on a teacher’s salary pushing them to other professions thereby creating a teacher shortage and larger class sizes. 
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Is teacher pay in Cali abnormally low? Or is this problem coming everywhere?

 
derek245583 said:
I really have no clue how this works, but I was always under the impression that property tax was a major driver in funding for public schools. Is that true/not true?

If true, I would think undocumented immigrants are less likely to own homes resulting in lower property tax collection yet they still send kids to schools.

Could be way off though. Just spit balling.

We just passed a levy in our SD to build a bigger school. They haven't even broken ground yet and the school is already too small. So now they have to go back and try and pass a bigger one.
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Yes, property taxes are the driver behind the funding.

Of course people that rent also pay property tax...or at least their landlords do.

 
derek245583 said:
Landlords pay just based off value of their building? Higher/lower because they rent it out vs primary residence?
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Yes.  It’s based on property value.  Normally values assessed by state or local government based on many factors.  Problem is many of these urban areas don’t have new development and property values don’t increase as quickly and as much as other areas.  New development tends to get temporary tax abatements so they can be exempt from property taxes for years.  Rural districts have similar issues when trying to value and fund agricultural property to finance those schools.  

 
Bucky86 said:
Weren’t you the one talking about how it seems unlikely most people don’t have two years of bills saved up and should be enjoying their work furlough? Now you want a state to spend its rainy day funds?
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Yes.

What's your point?

 
timschochet said:
It’s a big state. Los Angeles is a huge city. Most of the wealthy and middle class people I know avoid sending their kids to LAUSD- unless it’s a special charter school. 
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My buddy in Pasadena who moved out there in early 2000 has done private schools for both his daughters the whole way.

 
derek245583 said:
Landlords pay just based off value of their building? Higher/lower because they rent it out vs primary residence?
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Most municipalities have a rental tax that you pay to the city.  I have some rentals that the property manager pays them for me at the end of the year.  Most places large enough to make rentals viable have city school districts as opposed to county/rural districts.

But yes there is also a property tax based off the assessed value of the building.

 
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derek245583 said:
Is teacher pay in Cali abnormally low? Or is this problem coming everywhere?
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I think everywhere. My wife is a teacher here in Indiana and they don’t get paid well. My wife does ok but it’s taken a lot of years and a masters to earn about $60k.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
I thought California has one of the best economies in the world?  Do they not prioritize education?   How are 80% of the students at poverty level in such a rich state?
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They count poverty by who is on subsidized lunch, but there is no income verification to get on the program.

 
whiskey7 said:
I don’t think it happens near enough, so I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the educators out there for all the good work they do. Sincerely appreciated! :thanks:
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Part of my favorite part of doing things at my daughters school is the teacher lunches and thank you carts.

 
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