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Insein

Kickoffs are Stupid and Bad

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9 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

So you go to the head, just the kickoff.

When ya come back the Bears have the ball again, what happened?  Yep....fumble.

Nothing more boring than watching a ref placing the ball at the 25, yep....yawn.

And yet that happens 64% of the time on this sequence. Exciting.

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10 minutes ago, Insein said:

And yet that happens 64% of the time on this sequence. Exciting.

So we can know for sure the ball will be placed at the 25 or have a chance we could see a great return or a fumble or a penalty.

Which is better?

You keep ignoring this weekend, why? What will you say if that kickoff return plays a major roll in a game, well?

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4 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

So we can know for sure the ball will be placed at the 25 or have a chance we could see a great return or a fumble or a penalty.

Which is better?

You keep ignoring this weekend, why? What will you say if that kickoff return plays a major roll in a game, well?

No I just keep ignoring you because you clearly only read the parts you want to. 

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Bottom line.

Why don't most of us watch a replay of a game?  There is no suspense, no drama, The action is the same obviously but it's not.....will they make that first down?  No suspense.

Four things can happen on a kickoff return, a score. A so so out to the 28ish. A fumble. Out to the 25.  But we don't know so...suspense.

Take that away and just out to the 25 every single time.

That would suck.

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8 minutes ago, Insein said:

No I just keep ignoring you because you clearly only read the parts you want to. 

I think it's more because you know we will see a kickoff or kickoff;s make a real impact and your dump the kickoff will look silly

One of football exciting plays,....FAR FAR...superior to a ref setting the ball at the 25 100% of the time.

Edited by ZenoRazon
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13 hours ago, billrob said:

Yes please.

Player safety, sure makes complete sense.

Kickoffs and on-side kicks used to be exciting but with moving the kick up, the touchback spot up, equalizing the amount of players on each side, and changing the rule to that you can just let the ball bounce or roll into the endzone, it really is a waste of time.  The most exciting kickoff in the history of the game (as per the video) would have been a touchback as soon as it rolled into the endzone under todays rules.

I love the idea of in lieu of a kickoff you get 4th and 10 at your own 30 and can choose to punt or go for it.  Let's get the math guys at it, it might make sense to go for it every time just like the 2 point conversion vs 1 point probability equations.  

I find it amusing to cite all the rules that were designed to slowly remove the kickoff from the game as the reasons to remove the kickoff from the game.

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Well, this pretty much falls in line with all the other idiotic ideas that have been implemented and are ruining what has been a great American tradition, so why not?  Let’s just get it over with, outlaw football all together, and force everyone to watch non-contact soccer.  And yes, you would have to watch or be sent to a re-education center to get your mind right.

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2 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

Well, this pretty much falls in line with all the other idiotic ideas that have been implemented and are ruining what has been a great American tradition, so why not?  Let’s just get it over with, outlaw football all together, and force everyone to watch non-contact soccer.  And yes, you would have to watch or be sent to a re-education center to get your mind right.

co-sign

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1 hour ago, Bronco Billy said:

Well, this pretty much falls in line with all the other idiotic ideas that have been implemented and are ruining what has been a great American tradition, so why not?  Let’s just get it over with, outlaw football all together, and force everyone to watch non-contact soccer.  And yes, you would have to watch or be sent to a re-education center to get your mind right.

Hyperbole aside, what is it that you enjoy about Kickoffs? 

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1 hour ago, Insein said:

Hyperbole aside, what is it that you enjoy about Kickoffs? 

 

The contact.  The much more difficult task of trying to run an organized play under chaotic circumstances.  The establishment of a change of possession play that starts in the open field.  The kamikaze mentailty of special team players who may not otherwise be talented enough to earn a living in the NFL but are given this opportunity to stick on teams and perhaps develop.  That it embodies a lot of the traits of what football is about.  The sheer entertainment value.

 

.

Edited by Bronco Billy

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13 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

The contact.  The much more difficult task of trying to run an organized play under chaotic circumstances.  The establishment of a change of possession play that starts in the open field.  The kamikaze mentailty of special team players who may not otherwise be talented enough to earn a living in the NFL but are given this opportunity to stick on teams and perhaps develop.  That it embodies a lot of the traits of what football is about.  The sheer entertainment value.

 

.

And the fact that the results are 64% a non play and the rest of the time just having guys smash into each other for the same result still make it exciting for you?

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29 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

Yes thank you. You provided all the TDs on the kickoff from 2016 ad 2017 in a 3 minute video. Thanks for summing up the kickoff. I'd show you a montage of all the touch backs or returns in between the 20-30 from 16-17 but who wants to watch a 16 hour video of that. 

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12 minutes ago, Insein said:

And the fact that the results are 64% a non play and the rest of the time just having guys smash into each other for the same result still make it exciting for you?

 

That the rules have been changed to water down the product doesn’t change my opinion or my reasons for it.  Ummm, in case you haven’t noticed, the game of football involves guys smashing into each other.  Just go watch soccer or curling and leave the game of football be for those of us who enjoy what it is meant to be.  If it’s just too violent for you then choose something else more palettable to your mild constitution to watch.

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You make no sense at all, so take the ......will  he score....out of the kickoff?  That is better for the game?

How many times does a world class sprinter break the world record in his career, not very often, now think just a little bit.  Every time he runs it's...can he do it again?

Taking the suspense out of the kickoff is a good thing,no it's not.

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5 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

That the rules have been changed to water down the product doesn’t change my opinion or my reasons for it.  Ummm, in case you haven’t noticed, the game of football involves guys smashing into each other.  Just go watch soccer or curling and leave the game of football be for those of us who enjoy what it is meant to be.  If it’s just too violent for you then choose something else more palettable to your mild constitution to watch.

I mean if that's all you want, there's UFC. Football is a game who's objective is to move a football down the field and score points. Hitting is involved but it is not the reason the game is great. You're probably the same guy that argues there's not enough fighting in hockey anymore.

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5 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

You make no sense at all, so take the ......will  he score....out of the kickoff?  That is better for the game?

How many times does a world class sprinter break the world record in his career, not very often, now think just a little bit.  Every time he runs it's...can he do it again?

Taking the suspense out of the kickoff is a good thing,no it's not.

No, if you were reading or watched the opening video, I was saying to get rid of the kickoff altogether and replace it with a football play. 4th down and 15 from the 30 after every score for the team that scored. I won't explain to you how you would get what you are looking for in that because you keep focusing on placing the ball at the 25 for the opposing team which no one mentioned. 

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14 minutes ago, Insein said:

I mean if that's all you want, there's UFC. Football is a game who's objective is to move a football down the field and score points. Hitting is involved but it is not the reason the game is great. You're probably the same guy that argues there's not enough fighting in hockey anymore.

 

I’m not trying to change the game.  Why would I choose an alternative. You’re the one trying to change it to your vision.  You just can’t stand it if people like what you oppose, so you have to wreck it for them.  And yes, the contact is a fundamental part of the game and part of what makes it great.  It’s why there isn’t a National Flag Football League that is making hundreds of millions of dollars.  What’s your next mission?  Taking the contact out of wrestling?  

 

.

Edited by Bronco Billy

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4 minutes ago, Insein said:

No, if you were reading or watched the opening video, I was saying to get rid of the kickoff altogether and replace it with a football play. 4th down and 15 from the 30 after every score for the team that scored. I won't explain to you how you would get what you are looking for in that because you keep focusing on placing the ball at the 25 for the opposing team which no one mentioned. 

We will see how many football plays in a game? Do we really need more?

Guys who run backs kickoffs are fast, give me that excitement over just another play.

Watch what happens this weekend, ok?

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51 minutes ago, Insein said:

I mean if that's all you want, there's UFC. Football is a game who's objective is to move a football down the field and score points. Hitting is involved but it is not the reason the game is great. You're probably the same guy that argues there's not enough fighting in hockey anymore.

Dude, did you ever play the game?  Knocking somebody down IS football, ok?  Wanna be an instant football hero, knock the QB out.

Football is a violent game, oh well.

Nolan "Super Gnat" Smith was tiny. I'd guess 160ish pounder but while at Tennessee State he ran a 9.4 100 yards, he had blazing speed.  There he is back to return another kickoff, and he was dynamic at it.  Some real excitement.

Take that out of the game, hell no.

 

Professional career

Known as "Super Gnat" for his short stature and light weight -- he was listed at 5-6 1/4 and 154 pounds -- he was the smallest-sized player in the AFL or NFL of his era.[2] Smith was drafted by the Kansas City Chiefs in the sixth round of the 1967 AFL Draft. In his rookie season with the Chiefs in 1967, Smith led the American Football League in kickoff return yardage with 1,360 yards. On December 17, 1967, Smith returned a kickoff 106 yards for a touchdown, still the longest kickoff return in Kansas City Chiefs history. Smith currently ranks 18th on the NFL's all-time kick return average List with 26.06 yards per return.

During his three seasons in the AFL and the NFL with the Chiefs and 49ers, Smith was almost exclusively on kickoff and punt returns, with 63 punt returns for 635 yards and one touchdown and 82 kickoff returns for 2,137 yards and one touchdown, but only three rushing attempts for six yards, two pass receptions for 57 yards.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Billy "White Shoes" Johnson,  Abe Woodson,  Bobby Mitchell......those names mean anything to you?

 

Edited by ZenoRazon

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Just to answer some of the points video brought up, kickoff returns are some of the most exciting touchdowns in my opinion. It wouldn't be a boring play if you move the kickoff point back far enough that it would take a very unusual kick to make the end zone. The extra-point became automatic and they moved it back and now at least has an element of surprise or suspense, the same to be done with kickoffs. The only reason to take a kickoff out of the game is because of the injury risk. But there's no reason you couldn't design rules to make kickoffs more exciting just like you can make rules to open up the passing game.

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46 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

I’m not trying to change the game.  Why would I choose an alternative. You’re the one trying to change it to your vision.  You just can’t stand it if people like what you oppose, so you have to wreck it for them.  And yes, the contact is a fundamental part of the game and part of what makes it great.  It’s why there isn’t a National Flag Football League that is making hundreds of millions of dollars.  What’s your next mission?  Taking the contact out of wrestling?  

 

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Contact is a part of the sport yes. But the purpose that hitting someone running at 15mph down field serves is what? What advantage is gained in that sequence?  The data shows the gain or loss is negligible whether you get a touch ack or return it. Players get hurt proportionally more on Kickoffs than any other play in football. If this was a sequence that was yielding game changing plays at rate of say 5% or more then maybe there would be justification in keeping it in the game and putting players at unnecessary risk. Kickoffs yield a TD less than half a percent of the time and only gain ground past the 30,  2% of the time. 

I mean we have hitting on every play and it's meaningfully affects the game. The data shows that the kickoff has that for no reason.

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45 minutes ago, Insein said:

Contact is a part of the sport yes. But the purpose that hitting someone running at 15mph down field serves is what? What advantage is gained in that sequence?  The data shows the gain or loss is negligible whether you get a touch ack or return it. Players get hurt proportionally more on Kickoffs than any other play in football. If this was a sequence that was yielding game changing plays at rate of say 5% or more then maybe there would be justification in keeping it in the game and putting players at unnecessary risk. Kickoffs yield a TD less than half a percent of the time and only gain ground past the 30,  2% of the time. 

I mean we have hitting on every play and it's meaningfully affects the game. The data shows that the kickoff has that for no reason.

 

Spoken like a true numbers geek who doesn’t “get” the game of football.

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5 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

Spoken like a true numbers geek who doesn’t “get” the game of football.

I'm far from a numbers geek. I offered an alternative. The punt return. Way more exciting. Higher chance of fumble. Higher chance of TDs. Higher chance of big returns. And at the same time, higher chance of teams being able to convert a 4th and 15 instead of an onsides kick. Side effect being significantly lower chance of guys getting hurt when compared to the kickoff.

You haven't really given me a reason why Kickoffs are so good other than hitting is a part of football or it's the way it's always been. TDs? Happen at a lower rate than completed hail Marys. Fumbles? Even less than that. What makes the kickoff so great that we can't possibly lose this sequence in a football game without destroying the integrity of all that is holy in football?

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14 minutes ago, Insein said:

 

You haven't really given me a reason why Kickoffs are so good

 

Only because you aren’t interested in hearing arguments contrary to your position.  Guys like you like to break things in the name of fixing them.  Football is a game of field position, down, and distance.  Kickoff returns offer both teams an opportunity to improve field position in what is an exciting open field exchange of the ball.  

But you of course know better than anyone and everyone before you who has played, coached, or enjoyed watching the game because you’re certain you know how to improve the game - and everyone else just has to listen to you because you’re the smartest guy in the room.  Here’s a clue:  you’re not.  I’m not either, but then I’m not the one telling everyone how wrong they are.

 

.

Edited by Bronco Billy

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1 minute ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

Only because you aren’t interested in hearing arguments contrary to your position.  Guys like you like to break things in the name of fixing them.  Football is a game of field position, down, and distance.  Kickoff returns offer both teams an opportunity to improve field position in what is an exciting open field exchange of the ball.  

But you of course know better than anyone and everyone before you who has played, coached, or enjoyed watching the game because you’re certain you know how to improve the game - and everyone else just has to listen to you because you’re the smartest guy in the room.  Here’s a clue:  you’re not.  I’m not either, but then I’m not the one telling everyone how wrong they are.

 

.

It's not really about being right. My idea isn't even my idea. It's Greg Schianos idea that he came up with after he watched one  of his players at Rutgers get paralyzed on a kickoff.  He like many began to question what is the point of this part of the game? 

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11 minutes ago, Insein said:

It's not really about being right. My idea isn't even my idea. It's Greg Schianos idea that he came up with after he watched one  of his players at Rutgers get paralyzed on a kickoff.  He like many began to question what is the point of this part of the game? 

Kickoffs are inconsequential because the athleticism of the kickers has surpassed the rules like they surpassed the rules for extra points.  Move the kickoff back to the 25 or 20 yard line and things open up a lot.  I  get the injury issue , but what is the next play that now causes the most injuries?  How do we get rid of that play?  

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I was told to watch this game to witness the excitement if the kick return and how much it can change a game. the kc game was specifically pointed out due to the snow. 

 

I must say... I'm on the edge of my seat and I haven't been this excited in such a long time, all thanks to the kick return play. 

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If we are to debate the suggestion from the video based on what was actually recommended, I think there may be more alignment here. 

Their proposal isn’t to eliminate the kickoff and just award a team the ball. It is essentially turn most kickoffs into punts. 

You’d still get punt return like chaos and players like Dante Hall, Tyreek Hill, and Devin Hester causing additional strategy considerations. 

But it also introduces the drama of a team down 10, scores a TD with 4 mins left considering if they punt or risk going for it to get the ball right back to try to drive and go for at least a FG. 

The “new option” is interesting because it means more football instead of more special teams. I don’t find kickoffs so much more significantly interesting than punts to dismiss the idea. I also like the idea of the guys we’re paying to see are more likely the ones deciding the end of the game instead of an onside kick. 

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2 hours ago, Jayded said:

If we are to debate the suggestion from the video based on what was actually recommended, I think there may be more alignment here. 

Their proposal isn’t to eliminate the kickoff and just award a team the ball. It is essentially turn most kickoffs into punts. 

You’d still get punt return like chaos and players like Dante Hall, Tyreek Hill, and Devin Hester causing additional strategy considerations. 

But it also introduces the drama of a team down 10, scores a TD with 4 mins left considering if they punt or risk going for it to get the ball right back to try to drive and go for at least a FG. 

The “new option” is interesting because it means more football instead of more special teams. I don’t find kickoffs so much more significantly interesting than punts to dismiss the idea. I also like the idea of the guys we’re paying to see are more likely the ones deciding the end of the game instead of an onside kick. 

You’re not supposed to watch the video! Just run in here and yell about how great kick returns are!

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We heard this.....too early for an onside kick?....today.  So what happened?  The kicker tried to bounce the ball off a player and he actually did, yep...questions...something we would lose if the ball was just put at the 25. And, some other way makes no sense.

As a former kick off returner myself,  I loved  having the ball and a running start.  And a few of my fav memories of HS football. Yep, ran back three to score, almost four. Hell, even made the local paper......

ZenoRazon Leads Maverick Victory

ZenoRazon a star all season for the Mavericks,  returned the second half kickoff 87 yards.............

 

Edited by ZenoRazon
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11 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

I was told to watch this game to witness the excitement if the kick return and how much it can change a game. the kc game was specifically pointed out due to the snow. 

 

I must say... I'm on the edge of my seat and I haven't been this excited in such a long time, all thanks to the kick return play. 

Let's remember that post, come back to it.

This...no big return in these "two" games.....ha~~~

Edited by ZenoRazon

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4 hours ago, ZenoRazon said:

Let's remember that post, come back to it.

This...no big return in these "two" games.....ha~~~

sorry for the late reply, I was up all night because I was full of KR excitement. 

You specifically mentioned the kc game, more than once

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5 hours ago, ZenoRazon said:

We heard this.....too early for an onside kick?....today.  So what happened?  The kicker tried to bounce the ball off a player and he actually did, yep...questions...something we would lose if the ball was just put at the 25. And, some other way makes no sense.

As a former kick off returner myself,  I loved  having the ball and a running start.  And a few of my fav memories of HS football. Yep, ran back three to score, almost four. Hell, even made the local paper......

ZenoRazon Leads Maverick Victory

ZenoRazon a star all season for the Mavericks,  returned the second half kickoff 87 yards.............

 

Coach? Is that you? Three year letterman in the house?

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9 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

sorry for the late reply, I was up all night because I was full of KR excitement. 

You specifically mentioned the kc game, more than once

Why stop now?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOKuYqqkS1U

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY5RIA8uxIY

Do we need videos of....

Brian Mitchell

Mel Gray

Nolan Smith

Abe Woodson

Timmy Brown

Bobby Mitchell

Ollie Matson

and in and on............

 

 

Edited by ZenoRazon
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5 hours ago, ZenoRazon said:

We heard this.....too early for an onside kick?....today.  So what happened?  The kicker tried to bounce the ball off a player and he actually did, yep...questions...something we would lose if the ball was just put at the 25. And, some other way makes no sense.

As a former kick off returner myself,  I loved  having the ball and a running start.  And a few of my fav memories of HS football. Yep, ran back three to score, almost four. Hell, even made the local paper......

ZenoRazon Leads Maverick Victory

ZenoRazon a star all season for the Mavericks,  returned the second half kickoff 87 yards.............

 

You don't really deserve a response because you keep being purposely ignorant with insisting that the solution is to place the ball at the 25 for the receiving team. I have to assume it's ignorance because I don't want to accuse you of being unable to read the dozens of posts referencing the 4th and 15 for the scoring team idea.

However, perhaps you can enlighten us to when this magical onside kick happened. I don't see anything in the play by play of either game that indicates an onsides kick was tried. Every kickoff was deep according to the play by play. 21 kickoffs. 11 touchbacks. Only 2 returns made it past the 30. None past the 40. Are you sure you're not misremembering?

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20 minutes ago, Insein said:

You don't really deserve a response because you keep being purposely ignorant with insisting that the solution is to place the ball at the 25 for the receiving team. I have to assume it's ignorance because I don't want to accuse you of being unable to read the dozens of posts referencing the 4th and 15 for the scoring team idea.

However, perhaps you can enlighten us to when this magical onside kick happened. I don't see anything in the play by play of either game that indicates an onsides kick was tried. Every kickoff was deep according to the play by play. 21 kickoffs. 11 touchbacks. Only 2 returns made it past the 30. None past the 40. Are you sure you're not misremembering?

Do you really think we are going to see that 4th and 15?  That's not going to happen so why waste my time?

There was a kickout at the ...are we going to see a onside kick?...stage of the game.  Well what actually happened is the kicker  tried to kick the ball right at one of the front line blockers and he did hit him but didnt get the bounce.  You didn't see it?

 

Edited by ZenoRazon
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8 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

A great kickoff return is the most exciting play of the game.

Well I definitely didn't miss that. 

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25 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

Do you really think we are going to see that 4th and 15?  That's not going to happen so why waste my time?

There was a kickout at the ...are we going to see a onside kick?...stage of the game.  Well what actually happened is the kicker  tried to kick the ball right at one of the front line blockers and he did hit him but didnt get the bounce.  You didn't see it?

 

The 4th and 15 was an actual proposal to the NFL rules committee. Placing the ball at the 25 is not currently a proposal. Moving the kickoff back is not currently a proposal mainly because they moved the kickoff up in 2011. They're not going backwards ever again unless they suddenly don't have to payout concussion settlements.

Also thank you for that specific description of how, where and when the onside kick happened including which game it happened in. That makes it perfectly clear.

Edited by Insein

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4 minutes ago, Insein said:

Well I definitely didn't miss that. 

How in the hel lcould any football fan want to dump the kickoff return, wow~~~~~~~

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3 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

How in the hel lcould any football fan want to dump the kickoff return, wow~~~~~~~

You have an uncanny ability to misread everything. It's remarkable really. Let me show you the political forum. It'd be perfect for you.

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2 minutes ago, Insein said:

The 4th and 15 was an actual proposal to the NFL rules committee. Placing the ball at the 25 is not currently a proposal. Moving the kickoff back is not currently a proposal mainly because they moved the kickoff up in 2011. They're not going backwards ever again unless they suddenly don't have to payout concussion settlements.

Also thank you for that specific description of how, where and when the onside kick happened including which game it happened in. That makes it perfectly clear.

Watch how the fans react if a silly 4th and 15 did happen.

Are you telling me you saw both games but didn't see replays a couple of them of a kicker  trying to bounce the ball off a on line guy?  It was talked about because it was weird.  I can't remember which game.

And, more than once.....do we see an onside here...?  Which means we have a....????

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On 1/11/2019 at 2:08 PM, AhrnCityPahnder said:

quick best of three tiddlywinks tourney

What about thunderdome? I think the NFLPA would like it too because the teams would have to carry more players in case the player loses the matchup.

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4 minutes ago, Insein said:

You have an uncanny ability to misread everything. It's remarkable really. Let me show you the political forum. It'd be perfect for you.

You want to do the kickoff a different way, right? So how am I misunderstanding anything, well?

What gets me is how could anyone who knows the game want to change an historically great play?

Edited by ZenoRazon

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