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Insein

Kickoffs are Stupid and Bad

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30 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

Watch how the fans react if a silly 4th and 15 did happen.

Are you telling me you saw both games but didn't see replays a couple of them of a kicker  trying to bounce the ball off a on line guy?  It was talked about because it was weird.  I can't remember which game.

And, more than once.....do we see an onside here...?  Which means we have a....????

I watched most of both games. Don't remember any onside kick and the play by play in the box score seems to verify that. Even you can't remember when it happened. 

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30 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

You want to do the kickoff a different way, right? So how am I misunderstanding anything, well?

What gets me is how could anyone who knows the game want to change an historically great play?

I was saying I didn't miss any big return because there was no big return in the 21 Kickoffs from yesterday. None of them made it past the 40. Only 2 made it past the 30. Most were touchbacks. Basically nothing really happened.

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15 minutes ago, Insein said:

I watched most of both games. Don't remember any onside kick and the play by play in the box score seems to verify that. Even you can't remember when it happened. 

Key word there....most.

If you had watched all of both games it would be impossible to miss what I;m talking about. In the replay it was real obvious there was an attempt to hit a guy with the ball, and the kicker did as they showed.  While not the classic on side it was an attempt to get the ball back.

A replay of a kicker  trying to hit a guy with the ball and you somehow missed it.

Edited by ZenoRazon

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11 minutes ago, Insein said:

I was saying I didn't miss any big return because there was no big return in the 21 Kickoffs from yesterday. None of them made it past the 40. Only 2 made it past the 30. Most were touchbacks. Basically nothing really happened.

How many times in NFL history have we seen kickoff returns for TDs?

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3 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

Key word there....most.

If you had watched all of both games it would be impossible to miss what I;m talking about. In the replay it was real obvious there was an attempt to hit a guy with the ball, and the kicker did s they showed.  While not the classic on side it was an attempt to get the ball back.

A replay of a kicker  trying to hit a guy with the ball and you somehow missed it.

sounds riveting. we should keep kick offs just for those nerve wracking plays

 

Look!!!! Squirell!!!!!!

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1 minute ago, ZenoRazon said:

How many times in NFL history have we seen kickoff returns for TDs?

out of how many total kickoffs?

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7 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

sounds riveting. we should keep kick offs just for those nerve wracking plays

 

Look!!!! Squirell!!!!!!

Then there is always.

All those with 4-8 returns for scores. 

1Josh Cribbs82005-20143TM

Leon Washington82006-20144TM

3Mel Gray61986-19974TM

Dante Hall62000-20082TM

Ollie Matson+61952-19664TM...................Olympian

Cordarrelle Patterson62013-20183TM

Gale Sayers+61965-1971chi................HOF RB

Travis Williams61967-19712TM...........world class sptinter

9Michael Bates51993-20036TM.............Olympian

Timmy Brown51959-19683TM........great RB

Percy Harvin52009-20164TM

Devin Hester52006-20164TM

Jacoby Jones52007-20154TM

Terrence McGee52003-2012buf

Justin Miller52005-20123TM

Bobby Mitchell+51958-19682TM........HOF WR

Allen Rossum51998-20096TM

Abe Woodson51958-19662TM

19Ron Brown41984-19912TM..........Olympian

Andre Coleman41994-19983TM

Andre' Davis42002-20094TM

Jacoby Ford42010-2013rai..........World class sprinter

Tony Horne41998-2000ram

Brian Mitchell41990-20033TM

Brad Smith42006-20143TM

Cecil Turner41968-1973ch...........World class sorinter

Tamarick Vanover41995-20022TM

Darrick Vaughn42000-20032TM

Jon Vaughn41991-19943TM

Buddy Young41947-19554TM.........World class sprinter

That list of those with 3-1 a mile long.

We have Olympic sprinters up there, some very exciting athletes, some amazing runs, but dump it.....ha~~~~~~~~~

Edited by ZenoRazon

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9 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

Then there is always.

All those with 4-8 returns for scores. 

1Josh Cribbs82005-20143TM

Leon Washington82006-20144TM

3Mel Gray61986-19974TM

Dante Hall62000-20082TM

Ollie Matson+61952-19664TM

Cordarrelle Patterson62013-20183TM

Gale Sayers+61965-1971chi

Travis Williams61967-19712TM

9Michael Bates51993-20036TM

Timmy Brown51959-19683TM

Percy Harvin52009-20164TM

Devin Hester52006-20164TM

Jacoby Jones52007-20154TM

Terrence McGee52003-2012buf

Justin Miller52005-20123TM

Bobby Mitchell+51958-19682TM

Allen Rossum51998-20096TM

Abe Woodson51958-19662TM

19Ron Brown41984-19912TM

Andre Coleman41994-19983TM

Andre' Davis42002-20094TM

Jacoby Ford42010-2013rai

Tony Horne41998-2000ram

Brian Mitchell41990-20033TM

Brad Smith42006-20143TM

Cecil Turner41968-1973chi

Tamarick Vanover41995-20022TM

Darrick Vaughn42000-20032TM

Jon Vaughn41991-19943TM

Buddy Young41947-19554TM

That list of those with 3-1 a mile long.

 

what percentage of all kick returns in the history of the NFL have gone for Tds?

I'd bet dollars to donuts it is less than 0.5%

Edited by Dr. Dan

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8 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

what percentage of all kick returns in the history of the NFL have gone for Tds?

Jim Brown had how many carries, what % went for Td's?

Jerry Rice caught how many passes, what % went for td's?

Brown had 12312 carries, and 106 rushing td's.

See how silly that was?

Edited by ZenoRazon

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21 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

How many times in NFL history have we seen kickoff returns for TDs?

Going back to 1920 (98 years), there have been 659 kick return TDs. There aren't accurate stats for how many Kickoffs there were in that amount of time but let's say there are 10 per game combined. That means that there are over 200,000 Kickoffs in that time. So in 2-3% of the times that a kickoff occurred, there was a TD. 

The real question would be how many times did the kick return make it past the 30 yard line. That I'd imagine is incredibly low.

Edited by Insein

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7 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

Jim Brown had how many carries, what % went for Td's?

Jerry Rice caught how many passes, what % went for td's?

we arent talking about getting rid of boring running back carries or boring receptions for TDs

we are talking about the most exciting play in the game

 

but to answer your question:

Jim Brown 4.4% of his carries went for TDs. 

Jerry Rice 12.7% of his receptions went for TDs

in 2017 alone, 0.27% of kick returns went for TDs

 

Edited by Dr. Dan

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11 minutes ago, Insein said:

Going back to 1920 (98 years), there have been 659 kick return TDs. There aren't accurate stats for how many Kickoffs there were in that amount of time but let's say there are 10 per game combined. That means that there are over 200,000 Kickoffs in that time. So in 2-3% of the times that a kickoff occurred, there was a TD. 

659 times we got some real excitement, that;s a bad thing?  Then there are all those 40-70 yard returns where ....is he going to score????  How many of those?

You don't dump anything that has thrilled fans a 1000 times.

Edited by ZenoRazon

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7 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

we arent talking about getting rid of boring running back carries or boring receptions for TDs

we are talking about the most exciting play in the game

 

but to answer your question:

Jim Brown 4.4% of his carries went for TDs. 

Jerry Rice 12.7% of his receptions went for TDs

in 2017 alone, 0.27% of kick returns went for TDs

 

What about long unscoring returns?

What about the....will he run it back?

Seen a lot of exciting kickoff returns, you haven't?

 

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Anthony Schwartz is the fastest NCAA player in the nation, he will be running track at Auburn in the spring.

So he ends up in the NFL. There he stands all set to return the kickoff.

That is excitement.

If you don't get that I can't help you.

Edited by ZenoRazon

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6 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

What about long unscoring returns?

What about the....will he run it back?

Seen a lot of exciting kickoff returns, you haven't?

 

insein has shown that long returns are rare as well. 

so we should save the kick return because of the suspense of a 0.27% chance for a td return? you must be a casino's dream... 

no, I havent seen a high percentage of exciting kick off returns

 the vast majority of kick returns I have seen are unexciting.

If I had to choose to watch a kick return or a 4th and 15 option, I'd take the 4th and 15.

4th down conversion rates are way more successful than kr for TDs AMD long KRs combined. if you dont get that then I cant help you

Edited by Dr. Dan

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12 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

insein has shown that long returns are rare as well. 

so we should save the kick return because of the suspense of a 0.27% chance for a td return? you must be a casino's dream... 

no, I havent seen a high percentage of exciting kick off returns

 the vast majority of kick returns I have seen are unexciting.

If I had to choose to watch a kick return or a 4th and 15 option, I'd take the 4th and 15.

4th down conversion rates are way more successful than kr for TDs. if you dont get that then I cant help you

Give me a guy like this getting ready to return a kickoff.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzTETykr8kQ

And, I have seen tons of great kickoff returns. By TONS of exciting players.

When you know the athletes involved you want to see them returning kicks, because of what they are capable of.

Next week the Chiefs are down by 2 with 29 seconds left in the game, the Pats just scored will be kicking off, enter......Tyreek Hill.

That's excitement.

So he takes the kick 7 yards deep and takes off.............

That beats the hell out of 4th and 15.

Edited by ZenoRazon

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24 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

Next week the Chiefs are down by 2 with 29 seconds left in the game, the Pats just scored will be kicking off, enter......Tyreek Hill.

That's excitement.

saving this

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6 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

saving this

You do know there has been an OT game won by a KO return, right?

The very first play in Charger history was a 105 yard KO return bu speedy Paul Lowe.

Who ran back the first KO to score on MNF?

So just dump all that?

Google...John Gilliam.

Edited by ZenoRazon

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1 minute ago, ZenoRazon said:

You do know there has been an OT game won by a KO return, right?

:lol:

I'm sure there has been at least 1 in the NFL at some point. I'm sure there are many many more games won on a drive that included a 4th down conversion 

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5 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

:lol:

I'm sure there has been at least 1 in the NFL at some point. I'm sure there are many many more games won on a drive that included a 4th down conversion 

You are comparing a 4th down conversion to a 100 yard ko return, really?  REALLY?

You don't watch any videos do you?

Edited by ZenoRazon

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6 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

You are comparing a 4th down conversion to a 100 yard ko return, really? 

Let's review, you seem to have a problem focusing....

the topic of discussion is should a KR be changed to 4th and 15?

You say, there was an overtime game that was decided by a kr for a td. great. my retort was that I'm sure there were many ot games decided by a drive with a 4th down conversion. 

you seem to be arguing in a circle, not really addressing the actual debates rather just trying to make krs seem exciting or that they have mattered in games. that's great. but the discussion is should they be removed in favor of something more exciting, more successful historically, and more safe? if you want to discuss that I'd be glad to continue. if you want to keep going off on tangents then I'm done here 

Edited by Dr. Dan

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7 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

Let's review, you seem to have a problem focusing....

the topic of discussion is should a KR be changed to 4th and 15?

You say, there was an overtime game that was decided by a kr for a td. great. my retort was that I'm sure there were many ot games decided by a drive with a 4th down conversion. 

you seem to be arguing in a circle, not really addressing the actual debates rather just trying to make krs seem exciting or that they have mattered in games. that's great. but the discussion is should they be removed in favor of something more exciting, more successful historically, and more safe? if you want to discuss that I'd be glad to continue. if you want to keep going off on tangents then I'm done here 

Then go, if you can't figure out a kickoff return is FAR more exciting than a 4th and 15th then you don't know the game so stop wasting my time. ok?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dr. Dan said:

we arent talking about getting rid of boring running back carries or boring receptions for TDs

we are talking about the most exciting play in the game

 

but to answer your question:

Jim Brown 4.4% of his carries went for TDs. 

Jerry Rice 12.7% of his receptions went for TDs

in 2017 alone, 0.27% of kick returns went for TDs

 

Using only 2017 is a little disingenuous since it comes after multiple rules changes to diminish the kickoff return as a meaningful play.

If we want to fairly assess the excitement level of a traditional return, rather than the current, heavily nerfed version, we'd need to look at older data.

Insein's 659 in 100 years was a better starting point for that line of argument imo.

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14 minutes ago, Arodin said:

Using only 2017 is a little disingenuous since it comes after multiple rules changes to diminish the kickoff return as a meaningful play.

If we want to fairly assess the excitement level of a traditional return, rather than the current, heavily nerfed version, we'd need to look at older data.

Insein's 659 in 100 years was a better starting point for that line of argument imo.

I'm fine with that. it was the only data I had available to me. Regardless, 2.5% success rate is not worth it IMO

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He likes to reference Devin Hester, who I would agree was one of, if not the, best kick returner in the history of the game. 

1.6% of Hesters returned kick offs went for touchdowns. 

Only 8.8% were over 40 yards. You have better odds hitting on a 4 number combination in roulette than Devin Hester returning a kick 40+ yards 

And this should be considered the ceiling for this category; most other kick returners are likely performing less than this. 

 

 

ETA: I wish they'd make a Redzone that only shows kick returns. these 4 games... why watch anything else?!?! so exciting 

Edited by Dr. Dan
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You want stupid? THIS IS STUPID:  proposal to provide a fourth-and-15 alternative option to the onside kick. 

The competition committee members believe it could be a fun option for teams. Ok, lets bring some clowns in as well and have them run around on the field while plays are run.

The proposal calls for teams to get the option, a maximum of once per game during the fourth quarter only, of foregoing a kickoff and instead attempting to remain on offense following a score by converting what would essentially be a fourth-and-15 play from its own 35-yard line. They don't deserve the football back for no reason. You have to earn it.

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54 minutes ago, lod001 said:

You want stupid? THIS IS STUPID:  proposal to provide a fourth-and-15 alternative option to the onside kick. 

The competition committee members believe it could be a fun option for teams. Ok, lets bring some clowns in as well and have them run around on the field while plays are run.

The proposal calls for teams to get the option, a maximum of once per game during the fourth quarter only, of foregoing a kickoff and instead attempting to remain on offense following a score by converting what would essentially be a fourth-and-15 play from its own 35-yard line. They don't deserve the football back for no reason. You have to earn it.

I like limiting it to one per game to start. Good offenses would play make it take it against bad defenses otherwise. This at least is a football play to try and extend the game instead of the pointless onsides kick that has effectively been eliminated with the current rules for safety.

Also I feel like 4th and 20 at the 30 would be a better choice. Not as impossible as an onsides kick but still a difficult thing to convert. 

Edited by Insein

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