Going paycheck to paycheck.......

[Walking Boot 7,455]

8 minutes ago, SHIZNITTTT said:

where did they find 11,000 replacements? 

 

Bosses and supervisors filled the immediate gap while they fast-tracked new hiring and training for replacement workers over the next few years. 

[belljr 8,674]

2 minutes ago, Walking Boot said:

 

Bosses and supervisors filled the immediate gap while they fast-tracked new hiring and training for replacement workers over the next few years. 

Military controllers also.  

[scorchy 175]

1 hour ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Most that I have worked with work for the feds because they could hide out with low performance, boss around contractors, and end up with a fantastic pension plan.  Not everyone but a pretty damn good amount were pretty open about it.

I've been with the government more than 20 years and I would say the number of legitimately poor performers I've worked with totals less than a dozen, and most of them ended up leaving after poor reviews.  Sure, we've got a couple of Miltons in our 50-person office, but what workplace doesn't?  

I stay with the government despite making less then I could elsewhere because I believe in our mission, like the people I work with, and yes, job security also plays a part.  It's a trade off.  My wife is an attorney who makes probably 40 percent less than she did in Big Law, but at least she now is only working 50 hour weeks instead of 70 and doesn't have a bunch of stuffed shirt old partners breathing down her neck.  Again, tradeoffs.  

As for the fantastic pension, I guess it's "fantastic" compared to the $0 that most companies now offer.  But I'm not sure receiving a pension that equals 30 percent of my salary when I worked at the same place from the time I was 25 to when I'm 62 qualifies as "fantastic." At least when we compare it to what a fantastic pension meant in the past.

Edited January 15, 2019 by scorchy

[fantasycurse42 7,133]

15 minutes ago, scorchy said:

My agency isn't shut down so I got the usual direct deposit on Friday.  Wife's agency is shut down, but she's essential, so she's working without a paycheck at the moment.  We're fortunate enough to have quite a bit put away, but not everyone is in the same boat, especially in DC/MD/VA area.  She manages a few 20-somethings where this is their first job out of law school, and they have significant school debt and really high rent, and a missed paycheck really hurts, even if they know (think?) they'll get paid eventually.  Similarly, there were some glitches when my agency recently switched credit card vendors, and one of my newer GS-7s had to travel for work using her personal card to the tune of $2500 right before the holidays.  Thanks to issues with our awful travel management system (thanks, Concur!) she still hasn't gotten all her money, her credit card was maxed, and she had to borrow from her mom to pay off her credit card.  If we had to shut down, she would have been double screwed. Not everyone is a FBG with 7 figures in the bank, and lots of folks living paycheck-to-paycheck haven't necessarily been making terrible decisions.

 

Not to be a ####, but these youngsters are pretty stupid with money, at least from my anecdotal experiences. Day after day I hear/see one story after the next, just my company alone. 

Whether it is the girl who has $10k of handbags who makes $50k a year, or the group of 4 dudes who live in a $12k a month apartment as roommates, the moron who makes $75k that was so proud to show off his new Rolex Submariner, and I can go on and on and on.

Here’s a crazy thought; get an apartment in Jackson Heights Queens with one roommate and pocket half of that $3k a month you pay on rent. You could max your 401k on that difference, but instead you’ll head over to the bars and watch TNF paying $19 a drink. 

We’re a country of irresponsible morons, and it will catch up one day. My objective is to position my family as best as possible for when it does.

Edited January 15, 2019 by fantasycurse42

[Sand 4,366]

3 hours ago, culdeus said:

It's somewhat offtopic for this thread, there is a credit card thread where I described how to do this using Plastiq.com  There are other providers that offer the same service. 

You will pay the fee, but for meeting minimum spend it can be worth it.  When MasterPass runs a promotion you can pay fee free. Those periods come up about every 6 months, and are a ####### bonanza of points.  

I've heard bad stories about that place not making loan payments on time.  

 

5 hours ago, Bucky86 said:

Didn't they just announce they'r currently only inspecting "high risk" foods? What could possible go wrong. 

All international inspections are still normal.  As are high risk foods like romaine.  

 

59 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Sound like I just increased my net worth.  

Damn, a HE line of credit and a CC application bonanza and I can retire!  

Edited January 15, 2019 by Sand

[KCitons 4,144]

1 minute ago, Sand said:

Damn, a HE line of credit and a CC application bonanza and I can retire!  

Until the next housing bubble. 

[scorchy 175]

3 minutes ago, fantasycurse42 said:

Not to be a ####, but these youngsters are pretty stupid with money, at least from my anecdotal experiences.

I can only speak for the four or five 20-somethings who work for me, but I haven't seen that at all.  The girl who had to ask for a credit increase lives in an iffy area, brings her lunch everyday, and volunteers at a homeless shelter in her spare time.  Maybe it's a difference between folks who choose public health work in Baltimore vs. people who pick the financial sector in Manhattan?

[fantasycurse42 7,133]

2 minutes ago, scorchy said:

I can only speak for the four or five 20-somethings who work for me, but I haven't seen that at all.  The girl who had to ask for a credit increase lives in an iffy area, brings her lunch everyday, and volunteers at a homeless shelter in her spare time.  Maybe it's a difference between folks who choose public health work in Baltimore vs. people who pick the financial sector in Manhattan?

I work in technology, but I’d venture to say finance is equally as bad. 

Ive personally never lived in Manhattan. When I moved to NYC, I moved to Brooklyn, I still live here 15 years later. 

Of the hundreds of people in my office, of those under 30, I could prob count on one hand the amount that are financially responsible.

[Fishboy 284]

For those in government or those more knowledgeable than I, how is it determined who is essential vs nonessential?

I know if it was I and deemed nonessential I'd be looking for a new job. Maybe it's semantics but if my current employer told me that, I'd be looking for something else ASAP. 

[JaxBill 5,089]

13 minutes ago, Fishboy said:

For those in government or those more knowledgeable than I, how is it determined who is essential vs nonessential?

I know if it was I and deemed nonessential I'd be looking for a new job. Maybe it's semantics but if my current employer told me that, I'd be looking for something else ASAP. 

Meh. I think it has more to do with whether your job/dept/project is necessary for day to day operations. You could be working on an important long-term project but if you're not necessary to "keep the lights on" then you're non-essential.

[Bucky86 15,850]

1 hour ago, Sand said:

I've heard bad stories about that place not making loan payments on time.  

 

All international inspections are still normal.  As are high risk foods like romaine.  

 

Damn, a HE line of credit and a CC application bonanza and I can retire!  

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/fda-resume-food-safety-inspections-tuesday-n958631

 

 Sounds like it had stopped at one point? 

[Sand 4,366]

1 minute ago, Bucky86 said:

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/fda-resume-food-safety-inspections-tuesday-n958631

 

 Sounds like it had stopped at one point? 

I watched a whole news segment on Newsy last night about the FDA thing.  They noted that they were strategizing effort, not that it had stopped.

And no, I have no idea why I stopped on that channel nor why I sat through a whole (boring) interview on the FDA part of the shutdown.

[CGRdrJoe 2,592]

11 hours ago, SHIZNITTTT said:

What is the penalty for not working in an essential job?   Prison time?  Getting Fired? 

Has there ever been a time when these "government shutdown" people have not gotten their back pay? 

I can't imagine having to go to work every day hoping to get paid eventually.    I think a lot of people would start calling in "sick." 

 

MAGA! 

I wouldn’t get fired but I would get sent to the brig  

Edited January 15, 2019 by CGRdrJoe

[belljr 8,674]

10 hours ago, Fishboy said:

For those in government or those more knowledgeable than I, how is it determined who is essential vs nonessential?

I know if it was I and deemed nonessential I'd be looking for a new job. Maybe it's semantics but if my current employer told me that, I'd be looking for something else ASAP. 

Actually there are 3 levels and it's based on Agency etc.  I'll speak in generalities.

Essential - these are day to day operations that can't stop. ATC, Tsa, police for example.

Excepted - these are people that do day to day tasks and some support Essential employees

Non essential/not excepted - these could range from clerk's to irs auditors to research and development, engineers.   I know most of the non essential people here are people working on projects that will be released nationally in a year or two

Edited January 15, 2019 by belljr

[derek245583 410]

11 hours ago, scorchy said:

I can only speak for the four or five 20-somethings who work for me, but I haven't seen that at all.  The girl who had to ask for a credit increase lives in an iffy area, brings her lunch everyday, and volunteers at a homeless shelter in her spare time.  Maybe it's a difference between folks who choose public health work in Baltimore vs. people who pick the financial sector in Manhattan?

We have both at my office.

I don't think it has much to do with where you choose your field. Its just a mixed bag everywhere.

 

[derek245583 410]

12 hours ago, NewlyRetired said:

I have no data to back this up so it is all just a hunch but I feel like people with children find it much easier to spend above their means than people who are single and with no kids.

I think there is something inherent in our society today  where people with kids sometimes feel pressure to make sure their kids have as many goodies and experiences as they can and that stuff adds up super quickly.

I was going to say the opposite.

Once I became a parent, I found joy in staying home with the kids and tossing a ball or playing a board game...costing me almost no money.

When I was single, I had to go party with my friends for entertainment.

I know what you are saying, and I do see that occasionally too....where Christmas cost someone with 2 kids $3K and now they whine they have no money. I also don't have experience with teenagers where things can get steep $-wise. But I have single digit aged kids and I go days and days without money coming out of my pocket (CC or otherwise) and am busy and having fun.

[derek245583 410]

12 hours ago, scorchy said:

My agency isn't shut down so I got the usual direct deposit on Friday.  Wife's agency is shut down, but she's essential, so she's working without a paycheck at the moment.  We're fortunate enough to have quite a bit put away, but not everyone is in the same boat, especially in DC/MD/VA area.  She manages a few 20-somethings where this is their first job out of law school, and they have significant school debt and really high rent, and a missed paycheck really hurts, even if they know (think?) they'll get paid eventually.  Similarly, there were some glitches when my agency recently switched credit card vendors, and one of my newer GS-7s had to travel for work using her personal card to the tune of $2500 right before the holidays.  Thanks to issues with our awful travel management system (thanks, Concur!) she still hasn't gotten all her money, her credit card was maxed, and she had to borrow from her mom to pay off her credit card.  If we had to shut down, she would have been double screwed. Not everyone is a FBG with 7 figures in the bank, and lots of folks living paycheck-to-paycheck haven't necessarily been making terrible decisions.

 

Sure, you can find people that didn't make bad decisions and are living paycheck to paycheck. Feels like the exception to the rule. Would you not agree?

[CGRdrJoe 2,592]

3 minutes ago, derek245583 said:

Sure, you can find people that didn't make bad decisions and are living paycheck to paycheck. Feels like the exception to the rule. Would you not agree?

In general or for this particular shut down? 

[The Iguana 2,326]

18 hours ago, MAC_32 said:

I'm sure someone has data to cite, but if you're blissfully unaware how little most americans have in savings it's substantially higher than you think it is.

I work with a local food bank. Haven't read much here but the statistics of the number of people that live literally paycheck to paycheck is staggering. I don't recall the numbers off the top of my head and I'm sure in 3 pages someone has googled them already but a ridiculously large percentage of the the American population would be devastated financially by going without a job for 1 month or less. 

Most people live well above their means, or at the very least, are virtually every penny they bring in. A huge part of the real estate bust a few years ago was based on that. A number of factors included a ton of shady practices done to put people into homes they had no chance of ever affording. Banks giving out loans to people with ARM's. A year or two goes by, the ARM increases, the taxes are reassessed at a higher rate and suddenly the house payment has increased $100-$300 a month and people that were already strapped for money with credit card payments, etc were toast and repo's were off the charts. 

Combine that with the number of people that make use of "payday loans", have huge credit card debt, and/or other unpaid loans and there is a huge percentage of the population on the precipice of financial ruin if anything bad happens - unexpected medical bills, loss of job, car trouble, etc. 

[proteus126 524]

11 hours ago, Fishboy said:

For those in government or those more knowledgeable than I, how is it determined who is essential vs nonessential?

I know if it was I and deemed nonessential I'd be looking for a new job. Maybe it's semantics but if my current employer told me that, I'd be looking for something else ASAP. 

It is semantic, to some extent.

Think of how your town works.  Trash pickup, or the water pumping station, would be considered "essential" since that stuff needs to stay online.  The zoning board and the tree trimmers would not be "essential" since they can take a break.  Yeah - I wish they would come up with another term for my job other than "non-essential".  But honestly I much prefer being non-essential.  Being forced to work without pay, even with the promise of back pay, would suck.

They key to me is that who is deemed essential and non-essential has been carefully worked out in advance.  Agencies are supposed to adhere to that plan in times like this.  The administration asking agencies to change things around is essentially breaking the rules, and I consider it to be usurping the prerogative of the Legislative Branch.  In other words, illegal.

[The Iguana 2,326]

12 minutes ago, derek245583 said:

Sure, you can find people that didn't make bad decisions and are living paycheck to paycheck. Feels like the exception to the rule. Would you not agree?

You would probably be surprised to find out how many people are doing this. Odds are very high that if you could honestly poll a dozen of your neighbors, at least 8 of them would be in a situation that being out of work for 1 month would put them into "desperation mode" - i.e. paying for food, mortgage, utilities, etc would be near impossible for more than 1 month without their current income. 

And that includes a lot of people that look like they have everything going for them - i.e. nice car, clothes, etc. They live "in the now" and are not planning for the future nearly enough. 

[Ramblin Wreck 11,760]

12 minutes ago, CGRdrJoe said:

In general or for this particular shut down? 

I think it's in general.  I have a friend that isn't getting paid right now and will not be getting back pay (both husband and wife).  It sucks and I do truly feel bad for their family.   But at the same time, I know the combined income is well north of $250K, they go to Europe at least once a year, usually take a vacation in the US too, both drive $40K-$50K cars and the wife is on facebook whining that they don't have the savings to miss anymore paychecks.  I try not to be too judgmental but that's just irresponsible if she's telling the truth and not just whining.

I fully believe there are a large percentage of Americans that don't make enough money to save anything.  I do feel bad for them because they have much fewer choices about their situation.  But it is mind-boggling to see people like that buying the latest and greatest iPhone for themselves or their teenagers.

[MAC_32 8,026]

There are some parents that spend irresponsibly - some don't.  There are some single people that spend irresponsibly - some don't.  There are some millenials that spend irresponsibly - some don't.  There are some boomers that spend irresonsibly - some don't.  Etc.

About a quarter of each of those groups give or take live below their means and have a meaningful contingency.  The rest of each group's bell curve fills in accordingly.  And most of them are from their own decisions.  Although I sympathize with younger adults more than I do older.  Given the hand they've been dealt the only way they could deal with this is if they already had at least one side job, of which many of them do.

[The Iguana 2,326]

5 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

I fully believe there are a large percentage of Americans that don't make enough money to save anything.  I do feel bad for them because they have much fewer choices about their situation.  But it is mind-boggling to see people like that buying the latest and greatest iPhone for themselves or their teenagers.

"Keeping up with the Jones' " is a saying for a reason. Between people keeping up certain appearances and a number of predatory lending practices, a ton of people get caught up in the race to present a certain facade. 

 

[eoMMan 4,904]

They should take a poll and see how many of these affected govt. employees (that are having trouble paying their bills) have iPhone Xs or Galaxy S9s.  Bonus questions....how new and how many miles on their cars. 

Bonus Bonus question....how many times have they procreated.

[culdeus 5,930]

10 minutes ago, eoMMan said:

They should take a poll and see how many of these affected govt. employees (that are having trouble paying their bills) have iPhone Xs or Galaxy S9s.  Bonus questions....how new and how many miles on their cars. 

Bonus Bonus question....how many times have they procreated.

Because these are things you need what income level to support?

[jomar 2,303]

I'd bet the number of households living paycheck to paycheck is much higher than many in this thread think. 

there is a somewhat snooty country club that I have interactions with.  the club general manager was just fired and after he was, it was determined that one member hadn't been paying his dues or bills for all of the wine and food he had been ordering.  for some reason, the GM allowed this and the guy ran up about $40k in charges.  the club demanded immediate payment and the guy had to take a home equity loan to come up with the $40k.  He's a successful lawyer in town that has to be making $500k+ and couldn't come up with $40k in cash.

I do business with some members of this same club.  I send them a bill for a few grand and they have to make $500/month payments to me.  I have to shake my head.  It's all about keeping up with the Jones's.  they all drive Teslas and Audis but can't pay a bill for a couple thousand dollars.  

[eoMMan 4,904]

1 minute ago, culdeus said:

Because these are things you need what income level to support?

I would say you can splurge on the newest smart phone, a newer car, etc.....when you aren't living paycheck to paycheck.

No set income level....everyone's situation is different.

[belljr 8,674]

I drove a 2003 Accord with 265000 miles on it to pay for college JERK

[identikit 1,199]

11 minutes ago, jomar said:

I'd bet the number of households living paycheck to paycheck is much higher than many in this thread think. 

there is a somewhat snooty country club that I have interactions with.  the club general manager was just fired and after he was, it was determined that one member hadn't been paying his dues or bills for all of the wine and food he had been ordering.  for some reason, the GM allowed this and the guy ran up about $40k in charges.  the club demanded immediate payment and the guy had to take a home equity loan to come up with the $40k.  He's a successful lawyer in town that has to be making $500k+ and couldn't come up with $40k in cash.

I do business with some members of this same club.  I send them a bill for a few grand and they have to make $500/month payments to me.  I have to shake my head.  It's all about keeping up with the Jones's.  they all drive Teslas and Audis but can't pay a bill for a couple thousand dollars.  

Or don't have the discipline to not run up ridiculous debt.

[derek245583 410]

1 hour ago, CGRdrJoe said:

In general or for this particular shut down? 

in general

[Chemical X 4,905]

45 minutes ago, The Iguana said:

"Keeping up with the Jones' " is a saying for a reason. Between people keeping up certain appearances and a number of predatory lending practices, a ton of people get caught up in the race to present a certain facade. 

 

I think our society has been conditioned a certain way and we are too sheepish to realize or admit it.  Watch TV a little and check the commercials.......the size of houses, the new cars, wife and 2 kids plus dog, send and pay for kids to go to college.   We have been trained to spend and marry and procreate.  Not many people own their vehicles, I mean don't have a payment.  It seems that we have budgeted $500 a month at least in car payments.  Something wrong with keeping a car and saving that money?   Credit card debt is more common than many realize, but is 16-24% interest noticed?

On the predatory lending thing, I work for a bank so I am a bit sensitive to this aspect......we don't lend money and we are killing the economy, racist, too tight, etc.  We lend to those in lower brackets, creatively, to get into a house that they dream of and we are predatory.  I think people need to take more responsibility for their own actions.  We are trained to play the blame game.  Its always someone else's fault.

[culdeus 5,930]

29 minutes ago, eoMMan said:

I would say you can splurge on the newest smart phone, a newer car, etc.....when you aren't living paycheck to paycheck.

No set income level....everyone's situation is different.

I mean some people siphon off huge % of their income to tax-deferred accounts.  I mean for someone making 100k, you can siphon off more than 22% of your gross, and effectively 35% of your net income in this manner without any issue.  

Be careful, when conflating issues here.  Some people have a tight budget but save a lot. It just doesn't mean they can draw down those funds at a moments notice.  401k savings rates are steadily increasing.  That's about the only good news in the economy now is that people have money they can't grab till later.  If it's enough? Probably not, but it's something. 

[Otis 10,558]

20 hours ago, Chemical X said:

So, I try to stay above the politics rabbit hole.  The more things change, the more they stay the same IMO.  That said, my nightly routine with the wife is eating dinner while watching the 6.30p evening news.  Mostly just to kill time.  While the government is shut, this has been the lead story, with cutaways of families trying to cope without paychecks, etc.  Last Friday is the first pay people have missed and the people being interviewed are already in dooms day mode.  Can't pay mortgage, going to food bank, need help on loans, etc.  Got me to think if this missed check is making people exaggerate or if missing 1 check really puts people on tilt immediately.  I mean, no one has any savings?  I am not demeaning anyone's financial position, but what percent of this country has no savings and is going check to check?   I am lucky not to be in this spot, but the people being interviewed at home seem to be living well.  Are people house poor, just living above their means? 

Just looking for other peoples' opinions......

I bet more people than you might think are in this position.   There was a time surely as a younger man when I lived like this, but with mouths to feed, the notion of being in that position would positively terrify me.

[derek245583 410]

55 minutes ago, The Iguana said:

predatory lending practices 

 

While I agree that the banks had a hand in lending money freely without any ramifications...They got bailed out and didn't have to pay the piper when their loans defaulted.

At least SOME blame has to be placed on people for accepting these loans. Just because someone tells me I can afford a $600K house doesn't mean I can. I have a hard time sympathizing with these people as well. Do you your own math and take responsibility for accepting a loan.

[derek245583 410]

4 minutes ago, Chemical X said:

I think our society has been conditioned a certain way and we are too sheepish to realize or admit it.  Watch TV a little and check the commercials.......the size of houses, the new cars, wife and 2 kids plus dog, send and pay for kids to go to college.   We have been trained to spend and marry and procreate.  Not many people own their vehicles, I mean don't have a payment.  It seems that we have budgeted $500 a month at least in car payments.  Something wrong with keeping a car and saving that money?   Credit card debt is more common than many realize, but is 16-24% interest noticed?

On the predatory lending thing, I work for a bank so I am a bit sensitive to this aspect......we don't lend money and we are killing the economy, racist, too tight, etc.  We lend to those in lower brackets, creatively, to get into a house that they dream of and we are predatory.  I think people need to take more responsibility for their own actions.  We are trained to play the blame game.  Its always someone else's fault.

I was shopping for a new mower last summer and these guys were bringing up financing to me. I kept thinking "if I need to finance a lawnmower, I cannot afford a lawnmower"

There are QUITE a few things I think that about and yet the endless stream of people coming in to finance new countertops or cabinets just grows and grows.

[eoMMan 4,904]

4 minutes ago, culdeus said:

I mean some people siphon off huge % of their income to tax-deferred accounts.  I mean for someone making 100k, you can siphon off more than 22% of your gross, and effectively 35% of your net income in this manner without any issue.  

Be careful, when conflating issues here.  Some people have a tight budget but save a lot. It just doesn't mean they can draw down those funds at a moments notice.  401k savings rates are steadily increasing.  That's about the only good news in the economy now is that people have money they can't grab till later.  If it's enough? Probably not, but it's something. 

I agree with you but if you are putting a ton in your 401k and have basically nothing liquid to survive missing a paycheck (or two), you are doing it wrong.  

[Chemical X 4,905]

5 minutes ago, culdeus said:

I mean some people siphon off huge % of their income to tax-deferred accounts.  I mean for someone making 100k, you can siphon off more than 22% of your gross, and effectively 35% of your net income in this manner without any issue.  

Be careful, when conflating issues here.  Some people have a tight budget but save a lot. It just doesn't mean they can draw down those funds at a moments notice.  401k savings rates are steadily increasing.  That's about the only good news in the economy now is that people have money they can't grab till later.  If it's enough? Probably not, but it's something. 

I thought the max was $18.5k <50, with an extra 6k >50.  I m all about saving, but you should have some liquidity in case of emergency. 

[TripItUp 2,796]

One of the kids that works for me just bought a brand new A4...he makes about 20% of what I make.

 

I have driven a Toyota for the last 12 years.

 

 

[Fishboy 284]

1 minute ago, derek245583 said:

I was shopping for a new mower last summer and these guys were bringing up financing to me. I kept thinking "if I need to finance a lawnmower, I cannot afford a lawnmower"

There are QUITE a few things I think that about and yet the endless stream of people coming in to finance new countertops or cabinets just grows and grows.

Agreed - I went with my sister and nephew last weekend to the "puppy" store and it wasn't 5 minutes into the pitch that they brought up financing the 2K puppy.  Let alone the constant upsell of every dog product inside the store. 

And the place was absolutely packed and I bet I saw at least another 4-5 dogs bought during that time.  I bet 1/2 went the financing option. 

[Chemical X 4,905]

1 minute ago, TripItUp said:

One of the kids that works for me just bought a brand new A4...he makes about 20% of what I make.

 

I have driven a Toyota for the last 12 years.

 

 

Bought or Leased?

[TripItUp 2,796]

Just now, Chemical X said:

Bought or Leased?

Does it matter?  Poor decision either way.

[Chemical X 4,905]

Just now, Fishboy said:

Agreed - I went with my sister and nephew last weekend to the "puppy" store and it wasn't 5 minutes into the pitch that they brought up financing the 2K puppy.  Let alone the constant upsell of every dog product inside the store. 

And the place was absolutely packed and I bet I saw at least another 4-5 dogs bought during that time.  I bet 1/2 went the financing option. 

I am a dog person and a rescue dog adopter.  Don't get me even started on this.  Buying a dog is lud-a-cris, spending 2k is idiotic, financing this is insane.

They are literally giving dogs away for free.   Yikes.

[The Iguana 2,326]

2 minutes ago, derek245583 said:

While I agree that the banks had a hand in lending money freely without any ramifications...They got bailed out and didn't have to pay the piper when their loans defaulted.

At least SOME blame has to be placed on people for accepting these loans. Just because someone tells me I can afford a $600K house doesn't mean I can. I have a hard time sympathizing with these people as well. Do you your own math and take responsibility for accepting a loan.

I don't disagree with you, especially when it comes to "most people". Your average person should be able to determine what kind of mortgage they can afford. Or at least be able to tell when they are stretching themselves very thin. Lots of people will still convince themselves they can handle it and/or will be in a "better position in a year". 

When I bought my house many, many moons ago, I was still a college student waiting tables for a living. My wife was a social worker employed by the state. I don't recall the exact number but the amount of money I was pre-approved to borrow was stupid high. 

It's one thing to say people "should do x". The reality is that a huge % of the population doesn't do what it "should". Having skimmed this thread, a lot of people have quoted a bunch of very valid statistics. The % of the population paying credit interest rates (17%+) on significantly sized balances (5-15K) is nuts. They don't even look at the numbers showing how much money they are wasting in interest - they just keep charging and paying. 

[derek245583 410]

1 minute ago, Chemical X said:

I am a dog person and a rescue dog adopter.  Don't get me even started on this.  Buying a dog is lud-a-cris, spending 2k is idiotic, financing this is insane.

They are literally giving dogs away for free.   Yikes.

NOT CUTE PUPPIES!!!!!!

[MAC_32 8,026]

9 minutes ago, Chemical X said:

I think our society has been conditioned a certain way and we are too sheepish to realize or admit it.  Watch TV a little and check the commercials.......the size of houses, the new cars, wife and 2 kids plus dog, send and pay for kids to go to college.   We have been trained to spend and marry and procreate.  Not many people own their vehicles, I mean don't have a payment.  It seems that we have budgeted $500 a month at least in car payments.  Something wrong with keeping a car and saving that money?   Credit card debt is more common than many realize, but is 16-24% interest noticed?

On the predatory lending thing, I work for a bank so I am a bit sensitive to this aspect......we don't lend money and we are killing the economy, racist, too tight, etc.  We lend to those in lower brackets, creatively, to get into a house that they dream of and we are predatory.  I think people need to take more responsibility for their own actions.  We are trained to play the blame game.  Its always someone else's fault.

A lot of good stuff here.  We're a country of consumption.  We lack accountability, always blaming someone else instead of looking in the mirror.  And the pressure to have kids is very real...then consider the medical costs to actually have said kid.  The costs to care for them until they're in school.  The costs for a house of reasonable enough size to shelter you, your spouse, and however many kids you spit out.  Then the costs to educate them.  And the costs they have to eat themselves for that education.  And the cycle continues.  And that's just baseline stuff.  The costs for having kids now cannot be compared to previous generations.  Sure they got taken to the cleaners in other areas, but they weren't fixed costs like is the case now.

But all of that is contributing to declining birth rates and young people not purchasing homes, among other things.  

[Chemical X 4,905]

1 minute ago, TripItUp said:

Does it matter?  Poor decision either way.

My point here is he will probably say bought, but that means you will own the vehicle at some point in the future and have no payments.  People nowadays conflux buy and lease.  I bought a new A4 (but actually leased) , so I dropped money down, have limited miles and need to do this again in 3 years.

[The Iguana 2,326]

3 minutes ago, Chemical X said:

I am a dog person and a rescue dog adopter.  Don't get me even started on this.  Buying a dog is lud-a-cris, spending 2k is idiotic, financing this is insane.

They are literally giving dogs away for free.   Yikes.

But not the fancy labrasnowzerdoodles! 

[Keerock 4,337]

And as alluded to, there are many reasons people have to live paycheck to paycheck.  It's not just those that are irresponsible with money.  I've made a good living, and have retirement accounts, etc. but medical expenses have killed my family recently.  Most liquid savings have been tapped.  If I lost my job I'd have to take early withdrawls from my 401K/IRAs.

[Chemical X 4,905]

Just now, The Iguana said:

But not the fancy labrasnowzerdoodles! 

I am waiting for the "I have an allergy and need X dog".