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fantasycurse42

So Democracy is Fake in the UK?

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If Brexit doesn't happen, and Parliament overturns Brexit, what does it say about the voting process there? 

Does it say your vote doesn't matter if the government disagrees with it?

While I think they need to work harder to avoid a hard Brexit, overturning Brexit, which appears to have legs, sets a terrible precedent.

Does anyone disagree with this?

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3 minutes ago, fantasycurse42 said:

If Brexit doesn't happen, and Parliament overturns Brexit, what does it say about the voting process there? 

Does it say your vote doesn't matter if the government disagrees with it?

While I think they need to work harder to avoid a hard Brexit, overturning Brexit, which appears to have legs, sets a terrible precedent.

Does anyone disagree with this?

Wait, what?

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2 minutes ago, General Malaise said:

Democracy?  Thought they had kings and queens and crap?  Pippa and Meghan and princes and stuff?  All I ever see in the papers anyway.

I'm still waiting for the dragons.

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4 minutes ago, General Malaise said:

Democracy?  Thought they had kings and queens and crap?  Pippa and Meghan and princes and stuff?  All I ever see in the papers anyway.

You joke, but they had a vote, and talks of Parliament overturning the results are becoming very real. 

 

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5 minutes ago, General Malaise said:

Democracy?  Thought they had kings and queens and crap?  Pippa and Meghan and princes and stuff?  All I ever see in the papers anyway.

I thought they were an autonomous collective?

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1 minute ago, OrtonToOlsen said:

I thought they were an autonomous collective?

related

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Just now, fantasycurse42 said:

You joke, but they had a vote, and talks of Parliament overturning the results are becoming very real. 

 

Sounds like it's working then. Aren't members of parliament elected to represent their constituents?

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2 minutes ago, OrtonToOlsen said:

I thought they were an autonomous collective?

 

Just now, Dedfin said:

I find it entertaining and not surprising that the most liberal people find it funny. 

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All this Brexit stuff is dumb. I don't care what they do. Ever since being told they are not allowed to own Africa, Britain has lost their damned minds.

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Just now, fantasycurse42 said:

 

I find it entertaining and not surprising that the most liberal people find it funny. 

That's because conservative comedy sucks. :lol: 

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10 minutes ago, General Malaise said:

Democracy?  Thought they had kings and queens and crap?  Pippa and Meghan and princes and stuff?  All I ever see in the papers anyway.

Constitutional monarchy. Means they get to have both a Royal family and democracy

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3 minutes ago, Bucky86 said:

Sounds like it's working then. Aren't members of parliament elected to represent their constituents?

Yes but their constiuents voted to leave two and a half years ago, therin lies the rub

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Just now, msommer said:

Yes but their constiuents voted to leave two and a half years ago, therin lies the rub

Agree. But if they don't want it anymore maybe they should allow their representatives to fix it? :shrug: 

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The precedent being set is pretty ####ty one, all I'm saying. 

 

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Just now, Bucky86 said:

Agree. But if they don't want it anymore maybe they should allow their representatives to fix it? :shrug: 

Umm, they had a vote. I'd be fairly confident that those who voted to leave haven't changed their minds. 

You can spin it however you want, but it is a bad look. 

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Just now, fantasycurse42 said:

Umm, they had a vote. I'd be fairly confident that those who voted to leave haven't changed their minds. 

You can spin it however you want, but it is a bad look. 

I think you'd be wrong...

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Just now, fantasycurse42 said:

The precedent being set is pretty ####ty one, all I'm saying. 

 

I agree. Britain's dumb voters really backed the adults into a corner. What do you think should happen? I don't think the EU is going to let Britain have any sweetheart deals like they had while in. This move is going to hurt all of the EU, but most of all Britain.

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3 hours ago, fantasycurse42 said:

If Brexit doesn't happen, and Parliament overturns Brexit, what does it say about the voting process there? 

Does it say your vote doesn't matter if the government disagrees with it?

While I think they need to work harder to avoid a hard Brexit, overturning Brexit, which appears to have legs, sets a terrible precedent.

Does anyone disagree with this?

Don't disagree as such. The thing is the Brexit campaign was all smoke and mirrors selling a fairy tale that had no place on Earth.

A very small majority votes yes to the fairy tale and since then layer by layer it has been exposed as the fraud it was (except, obviously if you ask Boris and Nigel).

The deal they have on the table is so fra from the Brexit fairy tale that it's not even funny. And a hard Brexit is even worse.

So, now the question is: Do you take the decade of economic trouble that will (IMHO) follow a break up with the EU because some slimeballs sold a slim majority some snake oil, or do you act in what appears to be the country's favor and put an end to the fairy tale?

We''l get our first look at the answer to that tomorrow

Edited by msommer
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Just now, Bucky86 said:

I think you'd be wrong...

Right. How many people voted to leave just as a gag? Some people saw it as a complete joke. Now it's going to crush London and the UK. Banks are going to flee London in untold numbers.

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22 minutes ago, fantasycurse42 said:

If Brexit doesn't happen, and Parliament overturns Brexit, what does it say about the voting process there? 

Does it say your vote doesn't matter if the government disagrees with it?

While I think they need to work harder to avoid a hard Brexit, overturning Brexit, which appears to have legs, sets a terrible precedent.

Does anyone disagree with this?

Parliament has to pass laws to implement Brexit, as the UK is a parliamentary democracy.  It's been unable to do so, mostly because the whole thing was built on a foundation of lies to begin with and there is no solution that implements what voters were promised.

If you want to argue that the UK is not a direct democracy, well, yeah.  We already knew that.

Edited by Dinsy Ejotuz
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4 minutes ago, Bucky86 said:

Agree. But if they don't want it anymore maybe they should allow their representatives to fix it? :shrug: 

So, you would just do more referendums until the publc "get's it right"?

Edited by msommer

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2 minutes ago, fantasycurse42 said:

I'd be fairly confident that those who voted to leave haven't changed their minds.

Any link to recent polling?

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Just now, msommer said:

So, you would just do more referendums until the publc get's it right?

I don't know what the solution is, but maybe public referendums are the problem?

I also don't think if people voted to shoot themselves in the ####,  they should just sit there and :shrug: "welp. they voted for it." 

I don't have any skin in the game, so I'm just :popcorn:

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1 minute ago, Dedfin said:

Right. How many people voted to leave just as a gag? Some people saw it as a complete joke. Now it's going to crush London and the UK. Banks are going to flee London in untold numbers.

Do you really believe this #### you spew? 

2 minutes ago, Dedfin said:

Britain's dumb voters really backed the adults into a corner. 

You aren't the adult and enrage others by saying this (I'm not saying me, I'm saying those who voted leave) - what you're saying is "I'm smarter than you and your vote means nothing!" 

You think that is a good way to promote agreements and meeting in the middle? 

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1 minute ago, Bucky86 said:

BC those polls were wildly accurate before too.

You can't redo a vote bc you don't like the outcome - can't believe anyone would really argue against that, but here we are. 

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Just now, fantasycurse42 said:

BC those polls were wildly accurate before too.

You can't redo a vote bc you don't like the outcome - can't believe anyone would really argue against that, but here we are. 

So now you're changing your argument. You claimed no-one would change their vote. I just showed you a poll that says otherwise.

Bye bye.

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26 minutes ago, fantasycurse42 said:

If Brexit doesn't happen, and Parliament overturns Brexit, what does it say about the voting process there? 

Does it say your vote doesn't matter if the government disagrees with it?

While I think they need to work harder to avoid a hard Brexit, overturning Brexit, which appears to have legs, sets a terrible precedent.

Does anyone disagree with this?

"Brexit" was never guaranteed. I think everyone understood that a "Leave" vote still required approval from parliament. It's not unlike a state passing a law that requires Constitutional approval from the Supreme Court.

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6 hours ago, Bucky86 said:

I don't know what the solution is, but maybe public referendums are the problem?

I also don't think if people voted to shoot themselves in the ####,  they should just sit there and :shrug: "welp. they voted for it." 

I don't have any skin in the game, so I'm just :popcorn:

There are no solutions that doesn't do harm.

a. Vote yes tomorrow: Do the Brexit as it stands. This will hurt the UK economy quite a lot 

b. Vote no tomorrow - gives one of two outcomes:

1. Hard Brexit - Massive recession and a lot of chaos,

2. Cancel Brexit and give the finger to the majority of 2016 (and possibly do irreparable harm to the democracy in the UK)

It all spells that the UK is going to get ####ed. Thanks Boris and Nigel!

Edited by msommer
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4 minutes ago, fantasycurse42 said:

Do you really believe this #### you spew? sometimes

You think that is a good way to promote agreements and meeting in the middle?  No, I don't

Did you post what you think should happen? I missed it, thanks.

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1 minute ago, [scooter] said:

"Brexit" was never guaranteed. I think everyone understood that a "Leave" vote still required approval from parliament. It's not unlike a state passing a law that requires Constitutional approval from the Supreme Court.

Actually, until a recent EU court ruling it was thought that there was no going back from involing article 50. So, for about two years after the election the story line was "Brexit means Brexit"

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1 minute ago, msommer said:

There are no solutions that doesn't do harm.

a. Vote yes tomorrow: Do the Brexit as it stands. This will hurt the UK economy quite a lot 

b. Vote yes tomorrow - gives one of two outcomes:

1. Hard Brexit - Massive recession and a lot of chaos,

2. Cancel Brexit and give the fingers to the majority of 2016 (and possibly do irreparable harm to the democracy in the UK)

It all spells that the UK is going to get ####ed. Thanks Boris and Nigel!

Agree. I know a few people that live in the U.K. Very successful. All were against Brexit. 

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2 minutes ago, Bucky86 said:

So now you're changing your argument. You claimed no-one would change their vote. I just showed you a poll that says otherwise.

Bye bye.

What were those polls before the vote?

You're aware the bookmakers had it 3-1 to stay? 

So if you're basing your argument on that, I find it humorous. 

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1 minute ago, Dedfin said:

No I don't

If that isn't what you think, why would you say that? 

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1 minute ago, Bucky86 said:

Agree. I know a few people that live in the U.K. Very successful. All were against Brexit. 

I hope they voted because if it was me and I'd stayed home for a lark, I'd be kicking myself

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1 minute ago, fantasycurse42 said:

What were those polls before the vote?

You're aware the bookmakers had it 3-1 to stay? 

So if you're basing your argument on that, I find it humorous. 

https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/

 

This poll had it 48-46 to remain. Within the margin of error.

You're not doing well in here.

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2 minutes ago, Bucky86 said:

Agree. I know a few people that live in the U.K. Very successful. All were against Brexit. 

And they want a vote overturned bc they disagree with it, I'm shocked. 

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1 minute ago, msommer said:

I hope they voted because if it was me and I'd stayed home for a lark, I'd be kicking myself

They definitely voted. They also did a lot of public "remain" endorsements. 

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2 minutes ago, fantasycurse42 said:

If that isn't what you think, why would you say that? 

Well I guess we should all be thankful that I'm not an elected official in the UK. Maybe you could share your opinion instead of being so weird.

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2 minutes ago, fantasycurse42 said:

BC those polls were wildly accurate before too.

You can't redo a vote bc you don't like the outcome - can't believe anyone would really argue against that, but here we are. 

You'll have to admit that there are a lot more of the Brexit voters that understand the outcome now that it is coming to light and weren't well informed at the time of the vote as to the difficulties Brexit would entail when they did vote for it. I think they should settle on the best "soft exit" deal they will get from EU and have another vote on a "soft" exit vs staying so the voters make this their "final answer".

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25 minutes ago, fantasycurse42 said:

 

I find it entertaining and not surprising that the most liberal people find it funny. 

I don't live in the UK, Nigel.

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Just now, Bucky86 said:

https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/

 

This poll had it 48-46 to remain. Within the margin of error.

You're not doing well in here.

:lol:

Just answer my very simple questions in italics with yes or no, that's all you have to do.

Do you think bookmakers are stupid?

Here is an article as polling was opening for Brexit of all of the bookmakers in the UK and the bets they were taking:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/latest-brexit-betting-what-are-odds-eu-referendum

They were all between 3/1 & 7/1 to leave - do you think bookmakers give out 3/1-7/1 odds when the situation remains close to a coinflip? 

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1 minute ago, fantasycurse42 said:

:lol:

Just answer my very simple questions in italics with yes or no, that's all you have to do.

Do you think bookmakers are stupid?

Here is an article as polling was opening for Brexit of all of the bookmakers in the UK and the bets they were taking:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/latest-brexit-betting-what-are-odds-eu-referendum

They were all between 3/1 & 7/1 to leave - do you think bookmakers give out 3/1-7/1 odds when the situation remains close to a coinflip? 

That was before Putin came in and doped the horses in the race.

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11 minutes ago, fantasycurse42 said:

You can't redo a vote bc you don't like the outcome - can't believe anyone would really argue against that, but here we are. 

Brexit Yes voters were told they could leave the EU, and keep the parts about free trade that they liked, and have an extra umpty-trillion dollars to spend on domestic priorities, and the Irish border would be left in place, and they'd be able to completely block foreigners from entering the country and on and on.

No solution put forth so far does more than two of those things.  So what, exactly, did the Brexiteers actually vote for?

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2 minutes ago, ffldrew said:

You'll have to admit that there are a lot more of the Brexit voters that understand the outcome now that it is coming to light and weren't well informed at the time of the vote as to the difficulties Brexit would entail when they did vote for it. I think they should settle on the best "soft exit" deal they will get from EU and have another vote on a "soft" exit vs staying so the voters make this their "final answer".

The plan that is up for a parliamentary vote is the best soft exit the EU is willing and able to give. They have no reason to incentivize any exit

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