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So Democracy is Fake in the UK? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter fantasycurse42
- Start date
msommer
Footballguy
Not really, more like "I voted for Trump 'cause he'd get Mexico to pay for the wall, now he won't? #### that ####!"
msommer
Footballguy
Brexit: What just happened?
Essentially, it is reported that May started shifting the conversation to "give us the 3 months delay or we'll spin the hard brexit on the 29th as being theown out"
To which the EU has said: " you have two weeks to get parliament to agree to a deal. If you succeed you can have another 40 days to plan implementation. If no deal in two weeks? Ciao on April 12th"
Essentially, it is reported that May started shifting the conversation to "give us the 3 months delay or we'll spin the hard brexit on the 29th as being theown out"
To which the EU has said: " you have two weeks to get parliament to agree to a deal. If you succeed you can have another 40 days to plan implementation. If no deal in two weeks? Ciao on April 12th"
The Z Machine
Footballguy
msommer
Footballguy
She's pretty screwed. She can't get the EU to give her a fig leaf. Without one she can't get a vote on the deal. Without a vote on the deal she can't get Parliament's approval. Without Parliament's approval it's Hard Brexit April 12.
And even if she gets a vote it's likely a loser like the last two times they voted on it.
If not for Neville Chamberlin she'd be called the worst PM ever.
And Cameron is still in hiding.
Boris and Nigel are preparing for being tarred and feathered, I should think
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
It’s like Ireland is about to be Britain and Britain is about to be Ireland. This is the dumbest idea ever. At least Chamberlain was staring down the barrel of a gun. The UK just woke up one morning and decided to do this. Cameron belongs at the top of the blame sharing though, this was his idea. May’s just been given an impossible task, please everyone and make the impossible happen.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Nigel Farrage was just spouting off in Brussels every so often. No one was supposed to listen to him.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Was he 6ft 4 and full of muscles? Or was it Mussels? The guy was full from eating of the bivalves?
msommer
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
1,000,000 Brits signed a petition to halt Brexit and broke Parliament's website in the process, according to WaPo.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/03/21/can-brexit-be-stopped-people-are-trying-so-hard-that-parliaments-website-is-broken/?utm_term=.9744aa351ce1&tid=sm_tw
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/03/21/can-brexit-be-stopped-people-are-trying-so-hard-that-parliaments-website-is-broken/?utm_term=.9744aa351ce1&tid=sm_tw
msommer
Footballguy
Cameron is skating so much on the blame by hiding. If the exit will be as bad as it looks, he may end up being tarred and feathered as well, and possibly worse than Boris and Nigel. Which may seem unfair. May will live in ignominy for ever, though.
msommer
Footballguy
msommer
Footballguy
May: Vote on plan may not happen next week
Tusk: until April 12, anything is possible. The fate of Brexit is in the hands of our British friends. Hope dies last
Tusk: until April 12, anything is possible. The fate of Brexit is in the hands of our British friends. Hope dies last
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
msommer
Footballguy
No one doubts that there are many remainers. The critical question should be if the leavers have had second thoughts. There is a call for a second referendum that has gotten about five million (digital) signatures. When it was at about 4m (yday) they analysed the geographical density, and that matched the remain corresponding geographical spread at the election.
So a possible conclusion is that the leavers have not generally changed their minds, at least not in numbers that show up
The Z Machine
Footballguy
One has to think that are least some of the leavers changed their mind, some leavers have died, and the younger generation is more apt to remain. I can't see it going the other direction.
msommer
Footballguy
The only way to make sure is to have another referendum, which currently 1) would destroy the conservative party and 2) may destroy faith in democracy (as there is no fig leaf to trigger this referendum).
This is why it likely won't happen unless the conservative government falls and Labour takes over
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BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Turnout for Brexit was 72.2%, which was well above the previous couple general elections. The U.K. turnout for the last 100 years has averaged 72.9%, with a low of 59.1% in 2001. Turnout in the USA is far lower; 49.6% for 2016.
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8060%23fullreport
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
This is where I was going with the thread title. It's hypocrisy from those that want another vote, would they want one if their side had won?
Overall, they made a bad decision, but a decision was voted on and made in a referendum nonetheless. Over 17mm people came out and voted for that decision, and by not adhering to that decision, you're going to have a lot of angry people.
Of course someone like Squistion posts links to petitions for another vote, maybe someone should remind him that 16mm people already voted for the same thing in that petition, so getting a bunch of signatures on it won't be that difficult, I find it shocking such a simple concept would need to be explained, but whatever.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
At what point should a government cut bait on a knowingly bad decision? Why continue down a terrible trajectory and see it through if there's an alternative?
If there's another referendum, yes, some people could lose faith in direct democracy. However, I think it equally possible that some others would lose faith in representative democracy if the UK goes through with a hard Brexit.
If there's another referendum, yes, some people could lose faith in direct democracy. However, I think it equally possible that some others would lose faith in representative democracy if the UK goes through with a hard Brexit.
msommer
Footballguy
Thought this article interesting:
What do voters make of Brexit now?
Polling is 54-46 remain but largely due to more voters who did not vote the first time around stating they would vote remain now.
But the spread is not too different from the first vote which means all bets would be off
What do voters make of Brexit now?
Polling is 54-46 remain but largely due to more voters who did not vote the first time around stating they would vote remain now.
But the spread is not too different from the first vote which means all bets would be off
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
msommer
Footballguy
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Do we have democracy here?
I may be misremembering but don't you live in Utah too? If so you'll remember that in the last election we voted on a proposition legalizing medical marijuana. Except the Utah Legislature decided the proposition that was voted on was no good, so they would implement it in their own much much more restrictive way.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
BREAKING: Parliament says NO to every Brexit option in indicative votes:
No deal 160-400
Common Market 2.0 188-283
EFTA 65-377
CU 264-272
Labour Plan 237-307
Revoke Article 50 184-293
Second vote 268-295
Malthouse 139-422
No deal 160-400
Common Market 2.0 188-283
EFTA 65-377
CU 264-272
Labour Plan 237-307
Revoke Article 50 184-293
Second vote 268-295
Malthouse 139-422
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The Z Machine
Footballguy
More dysfunctional, US Congress or UK Parliament?
At least the Brits put their dysfunction out in the open and debate it for the public to see.
At least the Brits put their dysfunction out in the open and debate it for the public to see.
msommer
Footballguy
Yep. They remain only capable of turning thinhs down.
Theresa May has offered to fall on her sword (resign) for her deal but it appears that even that is not enough to get it through parliament.
Chaos rules and Hard Brexit looms
msommer
Footballguy
Just speculation based on the fact that is what the people want, and they can't get anything passed in parliament at this stage, and nobody really wants a no-deal Brexit.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
They have very little time to agree to that plan. They'd have to ask for an extension in order to hold a people's vote on concrete plans. The problem is that Parliament cannot agree that this is the right path either. Truly a fractured state of affairs right now.
Ever since the original vote, I've been trying to get my head around what was causing the dysfunction in the UK. I feel like after yesterday's votes I finally have clarity. The referendum forced the country to make an affirmative change one way or another, but there is no policy that commands majority support. Can't go forward, can't go backward, can't stay in the same place.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Vladimir Putin, man. Gotta hand it to the guy. Takes an obvious stereotype that literally everyone knows- white English-speaking Christians hate brown people- and uses it to turn two of the world's most powerful and respected countries into ridiculous global punchlines. The best plans are often the simplest ones.
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fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
https://www.theweek.co.uk/100429/brexit-polls-how-the-mood-has-changed-in-britain-in-three-charts
55% would vote Remain
45% would vote Leave
Support for a 2nd Referendum: 48%
Oppose a 2nd Referendum: 36%
So, a hard Brexit is going against the will of the people (as is May's negotiated deal).
I do think one of the great ironies in this ordeal - conservatives oppose a 2nd Referendum, and insist on upholding the first vote - but they are the same party that has insisted on 2 votes on May's deal, and really want a 3rd vote in parliament on the exact same deal - instead of honoring the results of the first vote....
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
While I don't know which way this guy leans or the leanings of those behind the research, I do know the most important quote in the article is this:
I would conclude your statement is an opinion and far from a fact, nor the people's will. I'd also note the outcome in this BBC poll conducted between November and last week; https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47693645
Do people support another referendum on Leave vs Remain:
Support: 39%
Oppose: 48%
A few things to note from almost all of these polls:
1) Where the polling takes place is paramount. It was noted by MSommer last page, that the demographics from petitions signed for another referendum showed correspondents were heavily concentrated in districts where Remain won by a wide margin.
2) Almost every one of these articles I have read states in some form or shape that the polling includes voters who did not vote last time.
I'd like to note number 2, as this is a sticking point for me - if you were too stupid or lazy to vote last time, you don't deserve a do over... We live in such a soft world with so many hypocrites and crybabies - they didn't vote? Too bad, learn a lesson.
The bottom line imo is that they had a vote, the results are in - just because the results could go either way if they voted again doesn't change the fact.
That is incredibly short-sighted imo.
It was a monumentally stupid idea to put the issue to a referendum in the first place. That mistake was compounded by the complete lack of understanding - by either side - what Brexit would actually look like - was akin to asking the voters to decide between Box #1 and Box #2 - without disclosing what was in either box.
Now, having realized the practical impossibilities of Brexit - just using the Irish border as an example - and the real hardships that will come as a result of GB being unable to negotiate more favorable terms - its important to step back and reassess whether Brexit is really in anyone's best interests.
It is really dumb for people to stomp their feet and say - "We must respect the will of 17 Million Britains who voted to leave three years ago!"
“(Polling) is enough to raise doubts about whether, two-and-a-half years after the original ballot, leaving the EU necessarily continues to represent the view of a majority of the British public,” Curtice said.
“But given the potential frailties of all survey work the Remain lead in our data is not sufficiently large for anyone to be sure what the outcome of any second ballot would be.”'
This is why - if you really think the people should be heard here - there should be a 2nd referendum. Nobody should be claiming a public mandate here to leave...
Really should have two referendums at the same time:
1. Stay or Leave
2. Assuming Leave: "May's plan" or "No plan"
“But given the potential frailties of all survey work the Remain lead in our data is not sufficiently large for anyone to be sure what the outcome of any second ballot would be.”'
This is why - if you really think the people should be heard here - there should be a 2nd referendum. Nobody should be claiming a public mandate here to leave...
Really should have two referendums at the same time:
1. Stay or Leave
2. Assuming Leave: "May's plan" or "No plan"
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
No, it isn't - by having another vote you stick your middle finger up to those 17mm that voted leave. Faith in democracy amongst those individuals will forever be shattered.
You basically have data that says it is still close, even 3 years after the fact and now the variables are known. They voted, they should now deal with it. If they had voted Remain, there wouldn't be another vote 3 years later.
Anecdotally - I spend a lot (probably too much) time on an English forum, where the Brexit thread is 2000+ pages of back and forth, and the tide is very definitely in favor of Remain.
There are still a few people who are staunch Leave supporters, but nearly all of the ambivalent posters are now strong Remain supporters, now that the details of leaving have been discussed.
For a while, many had hoped that May would negotiate better terms, but once it was accepted that the EU was not offering better terms, the realization began to sink in that leaving solves some problems and creates so many more.
There are still a few people who are staunch Leave supporters, but nearly all of the ambivalent posters are now strong Remain supporters, now that the details of leaving have been discussed.
For a while, many had hoped that May would negotiate better terms, but once it was accepted that the EU was not offering better terms, the realization began to sink in that leaving solves some problems and creates so many more.
Why not?
If circumstances changed, I would certainly expect a new vote.
Scotland voted on their Independence in 2014 - I expect that they will hold another referendum sooner rather than later if Brexit, in fact occurs - given that the vast majority of Scotland voted to remain in the EU.
As for your original point - about giving the voters the middle finger - thats really dumb.
Doesn't the process already give the middle finger to 16M who voted to stay?
What if 1M people, who now understand the impacts of Brexit, do not want to leave? Aren't you giving them (and really everyone) the middle finger by sticking with the unpopular choice?
And, if the 2nd referendum supports leaving on May's terms (or no terms) - then its a win-win.
Right now, its a lose-lose.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
This is really grasping at straws. I'd be willing to bet that this forum of yours that you enjoy, similar to this one, leans heavily left.
There are only maybe a dozen people on this forum that support Trump - I'm not going to quote that, stick my head in the sand, and pretend there isn't a strong chance he is reelected in November 2020.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
I am not sure you are the best judge here, but how so?
You have 16M people who wanted to stay - but the process tells them, that they have to leave - their opinions no longer matter. Majority rules.
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