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Top 10 QB's of All Time (1 Viewer)

travdogg said:
Randall Cunningham would be my choice for best African American QB.He carried some absolutely terrible offenses, kicking and screaming to the playoffs. When Cunningham went down in 1991, it was every bit as big a deal as Brady going down in 2008. The Eagles had arguably the best defense in NFL history that year, but it gets forgotten because the offense was so awful that they didn't even make the playoffs. 

He had seasons better than anything Moon or Wilson have ever done
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I disagree. What do you think is Cunningham's best season? Wilson's? Moon's? Let's compare them.

 
travdogg said:
Warren Moon might be the most overrated QB of all-time in my opinion, its him or Elway. Playing forever has its benefits.

Randall Cunningham would be my choice for best African American QB.He carried some absolutely terrible offenses, kicking and screaming to the playoffs. When Cunningham went down in 1991, it was every bit as big a deal as Brady going down in 2008. The Eagles had arguably the best defense in NFL history that year, but it gets forgotten because the offense was so awful that they didn't even make the playoffs. 

He had seasons better than anything Moon or Wilson have ever done, but was somewhat hated by the media/fans for whatever reasons. I will always wonder what Cunningham would have been if he had been surrounded by good weapons and coaching when he was young. That 98' Vikings year came when Cunningham was maybe 40% of the athlete he was in Philly. 
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When did Cunningham have any season better than Russell Wilson?

Cunningham never came lose to Russell Wilson stat  wish, not even ball park.

Hell just comp%/QB rating

Cunningham  56.6/81.5

Wilson 64.2/100.3...second best in history.

Google...both guys and find a better season for Cunningham, love to see it.

And, I do put Moon above him also.

 
ZenoRazon said:
Hard to totally leave a two time SB champ, who is also in the top 10 all time in TD/YARDS. off a top 20 list.

Hell, number 20???
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Not really difficult at all.  Through his first 8 seasons he had 27,479 yards, 185 TD's, and 129 INT's which compares nearly identically but slightly inferior to the 28,100/188/104 put up by Andy Dalton in his 8 year career.  He's led his team to the postseason 6 times in 15 seasons and outside of the two super bowl runs he was one and done the other 4 times.  In his first SB run he threw for 213 yards per game and 1.25 TD's a game which is pretty much game manager stats while in his second one he did put together a nice run, statistically.  He should not even come close to sniffing the HOF, he's a compiler who had 2 good runs fueled mainly by his defense.  Much of his career he's been hot garbage.

 
Men-in-Cleats said:
Not really difficult at all.  Through his first 8 seasons he had 27,479 yards, 185 TD's, and 129 INT's which compares nearly identically but slightly inferior to the 28,100/188/104 put up by Andy Dalton in his 8 year career.  He's led his team to the postseason 6 times in 15 seasons and outside of the two super bowl runs he was one and done the other 4 times.  In his first SB run he threw for 213 yards per game and 1.25 TD's a game which is pretty much game manager stats while in his second one he did put together a nice run, statistically.  He should not even come close to sniffing the HOF, he's a compiler who had 2 good runs fueled mainly by his defense.  Much of his career he's been hot garbage.
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Comp %....60.3

QB rating...84.1

Seven...4000 yard seasons

Three.....30 TDseasons

Two SB wins

Hmmmmmmm?

 
TheDirtyWord said:
With regard to Ryan...all but two years of his career are in the 2010's (this decade)...I could post the numbers comparing just their performances this decade and there is really not much variance other than the fact that Rivers winning percentage drops to .500.  Is Ridley that much more of a potential stud than Mike Williams?

The idea that Ryan would get deductions because of the weapons he's had to throw to...you don't hear those arguments for any of the other top tier QB's...who have undoubtedly had them.  Was Ryan lucky that he got drafted by a team obliterated by the Vick/Petrino situation?

Manning had Harrison/Wayne
Brady had Moss/Gronk
Big Ben had Ward/AB
Montana & Young had Rice

...so when I see that there seems to be this caveat for Ryan, I think people are mistaking 'eye test' for bias.  What about Rivers' career has been so special - where Ryan can't compere, that the last 9 years of Rivers' career, he's compiled a .500 record?

Fact is, if Ryan maintains the same level of production for the next 6 years of his career that he's had for the previous 8, he'll exit his Age 39 season ahead of where Drew Brees exited his Age 39 season in terms of passing yards.
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Since this thread went off the rails a long time ago, I will pick nits about Brady's weapons. He had Moss for a whopping two seasons. He's had a healthy Gronk for about 5 seasons. Brady has started for 17 years.

As far as Ryan goes, part of the problem is the HOF is not just the Hall of Stats. Sure, if Ryan gets another MVP, goes to another and wins a Super Bowl, and still produces at the same level of production in those 6 years you mentioned, then he will get more traction as a top flight HOF candidate. No one is saying he isn't a good QB, but his stats certainly get a nice bump having played 105 of his 174 games indoors.

As an example, Brady has a career passer rating of 97.6 and Ryan at 94.9 . . . a difference of 2.7 points. But if Brady played the same percentage of games indoors as Ryan has and Ryan played the same percentage of games outdoors as Brady has (at the same rate of production), then their passer ratings would be as follows: Brady 102.2, Ryan 92.2 (a difference of 10 points). In career rankings, Brady would jump from 4th to 2nd (just behind Rodgers) and Ryan would fall from 10th to 14th.

 
Anarchy99 said:
Since this thread went off the rails a long time ago, I will pick nits about Brady's weapons. He had Moss for a whopping two seasons. He's had a healthy Gronk for about 5 seasons. Brady has started for 17 years.

As far as Ryan goes, part of the problem is the HOF is not just the Hall of Stats. Sure, if Ryan gets another MVP, goes to another and wins a Super Bowl, and still produces at the same level of production in those 6 years you mentioned, then he will get more traction as a top flight HOF candidate. No one is saying he isn't a good QB, but his stats certainly get a nice bump having played 105 of his 174 games indoors.

As an example, Brady has a career passer rating of 97.6 and Ryan at 94.9 . . . a difference of 2.7 points. But if Brady played the same percentage of games indoors as Ryan has and Ryan played the same percentage of games outdoors as Brady has (at the same rate of production), then their passer ratings would be as follows: Brady 102.2, Ryan 92.2 (a difference of 10 points). In career rankings, Brady would jump from 4th to 2nd (just behind Rodgers) and Ryan would fall from 10th to 14th.
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Don't Drew Brees' stats get that nice bump as well?  Playing indoors?  Peyton Manning played a majority of his career indoors.  We were comparing Ryan to Moon before in terms of contemporaries.  You didn't bring up that Moon also played indoors.

There are some very prominent and significant baselines statistically by which we have traditionally measured QB play...and by those measures compared with QB's of his era, somehow there is this perception that Ryan falls way behind (i.e; Ryan doesn't hold a candle to Rivers)...I know that wasn't your stance, but I suspect that in general, Ryan is dismissed quite easily in this conversation for no real good reason.

I think once we start to get into what I'd call 'situational bias'...then the wormholes we can create justification (positive or negative) thru are endless.  Ryan played indoors...he also didn't get to play close to 40% of his career regular season games against 3 of the worst run NFL franchises of the 21st century...nor did he get the benefit of being coached by Belichick, but rather M-M-M-Mike Smith.  Where does it end?

 
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ZenoRazon said:
Comp %....60.3

QB rating...84.1

Seven...4000 yard seasons

Three.....30 TDseasons

Two SB wins

Hmmmmmmm?
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The selective stats you posted for Eli are nice, but people need to consider the escalation of passing totals over the years. Here are the total number of 4,000 yard passing seasons by decade:

1960's - 1
1970's - 1
1980's - 14
1990's - 22
2000's - 46
2010's - 91 (with a year still to go . . . there were 12 guys this past season)

And here were the number of 30+ TD passing seasons by decade . . .

1960's - 10
1970's - 0
1980's - 13
1990's - 17
2000's - 24
2010's - 57 (with a year still to go . . . there were 9 guys this past season)

But a career 84.1 passer rating is just plan poor for this generation. And his 239 INT and 122 fumbles are equally ungood, as is his career 116-114 regular season record as a starter. In one of the Eli threads, I posted an article about Eli that indicated he was actually a below average QB when looked at over the entirety of his career.
 

 
TheDirtyWord said:
Don't Drew Brees' stats get that nice bump as well?  Playing indoors?  Peyton Manning played a majority of his career indoors.  We were comparing Ryan to Moon before in terms of contemporaries.  You didn't bring up that Moon also played indoors.

There are some very prominent and significant baselines statistically by which we have traditionally measured QB play...and by those measures compared with QB's of his era, somehow there is this perception that Ryan falls way behind (i.e; Ryan doesn't hold a candle to Rivers)...I know that wasn't your stance, but I suspect that in general, Ryan is dismissed quite easily in this conversation for no real good reason.

I think once we start to get into what I'd call 'situational bias'...then the wormholes we can create justification (positive or negative) thru are endless.  Ryan played indoors...he also didn't get to play close to 40% of his career regular season games against 3 of the worst run NFL franchises of the 21st century...nor did he get the benefit of being coached by Belichick, but rather M-M-M-Mike Smith.  Where does it end?
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You are confusing me with someone else. I never mentioned or responded to anything at all regarding Moon.

But since you mentioned playing in the AFC South,  in the time that Ryan has been in the league, TB / CAR / NOS have combined for 18 losing seasons. Over that same time, BUF / MIA / NYJ have combined for 20 losing seasons. And it's pretty clear that a lot of the AFC East's loses came at the hands of New England. Most years, the AFC South hasn't exactly been a murderer's row of competition.

 
See my....hmmmmmmmmmm?

I;m not totally sold on the guy either.

But we can't totally ignore....

He;s number  8 all time TD passes

Number 6 all time yards.

2 time SB champ.

And if plays another season he will Fran Tarkenton in TD passes,

With so many in the HOF with far inferior numbers, yep....hmmmm?

 
ZenoRazon said:
See my....hmmmmmmmmmm?

I;m not totally sold on the guy either.

But we can't totally ignore....

He;s number  8 all time TD passes

Number 6 all time yards.

2 time SB champ.

And if plays another season he will Fran Tarkenton in TD passes,

With so many in the HOF with far inferior numbers, yep....hmmmm?
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Carson Palmer, Vinny Testaverde, Drew Bledsoe, and Kerry Collins are in the Top 20 in passing yards. Palmer, Testaverde, and Jim Kreig are in the Top 10 in passing TD's. (Bledsoe is 21st). Tony Romo, Kirk Cousins, Chad Pennington, Marcus Mariota, Matt Schaub, Colin Kaepernick, Derek Carr, and Andy Dalton are all ranked in the Top 20 all time in passer rating. Just because players rank highly in a category doesn't mean they should be considered HOFers or elite all time greats at a position.

Eli will more than likely make the HOF . . . but that doesn't make him one of the greatest to play the game. It just means he played for a really long time. He will get in passed on two historic post season runs (on teams that weren't all that great in the regular season). Put another way, take away his Super Bowl runs and he's essentially Drew Bledsoe.

 
Anarchy99 said:
Carson Palmer, Vinny Testaverde, Drew Bledsoe, and Kerry Collins are in the Top 20 in passing yards. Palmer, Testaverde, and Jim Kreig are in the Top 10 in passing TD's. (Bledsoe is 21st). Tony Romo, Kirk Cousins, Chad Pennington, Marcus Mariota, Matt Schaub, Colin Kaepernick, Derek Carr, and Andy Dalton are all ranked in the Top 20 all time in passer rating. Just because players rank highly in a category doesn't mean they should be considered HOFers or elite all time greats at a position.

Eli will more than likely make the HOF . . . but that doesn't make him one of the greatest to play the game. It just means he played for a really long time. He will get in passed on two historic post season runs (on teams that weren't all that great in the regular season). Put another way, take away his Super Bowl runs and he's essentially Drew Bledsoe.
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But how many of those you listed won two SB;s?

A two time SB winner in the top 8ish in QB stats doesn't belong in the HOF? With a whole gang of guys with less numbers, no SB wins are in?

That won't work.

Eli might make my top 20, maybe?  But is a HOFer,

 
ZenoRazon said:
See my....hmmmmmmmmmm?

I;m not totally sold on the guy either.

But we can't totally ignore....

He;s number  8 all time TD passes

Number 6 all time yards.

2 time SB champ.

And if plays another season he will Fran Tarkenton in TD passes,

With so many in the HOF with far inferior numbers, yep....hmmmm?
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Inferior but they are already in and there’s no going back. With the evolution of the QB and the obscene stats they are putting up presently - 7 seasons of 4000 yards just isn’t that impressive. QB is one position you simply can’t say “Well this guy that is a HoF did this so it has to mean yada yada”. You can’t compare them. At all.

And as someone else mentioned, Eli has been blessed with longevity and will continue to pad his #’s. There’s no way I would put him in my top 20 but that is just personal opinion. 

 
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Anarchy99 said:
You are confusing me with someone else. I never mentioned or responded to anything at all regarding Moon.

But since you mentioned playing in the AFC South,  in the time that Ryan has been in the league, TB / CAR / NOS have combined for 18 losing seasons. Over that same time, BUF / MIA / NYJ have combined for 20 losing seasons. And it's pretty clear that a lot of the AFC East's loses came at the hands of New England. Most years, the AFC South hasn't exactly been a murderer's row of competition.
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My apologies - I did confuse you with someone else.

But going back to divisional competition...the record of the AFC East/NFC South taking away 1) NE & Atlanta's record and 2) intra-divisional games since there is always one winner/loser is:

AFC East: 220-264 (5 playoff teams)
NFC South: 242-241-1 (11 playoff teams)

...that's not an insignificant delta in terms of divisional performance.  With that being said...this is an example of a situational bias that works in Brady's favor but ultimately is a (very) small piece of his success metric.  But when people discredit Ryan as a top tier QB, they do infer situational bias (i.e: He has Julio or he played indoors).

 
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TheDirtyWord said:
My apologies - I did confuse you with someone else.

But going back to divisional competition...the record of the AFC East/NFC South taking away 1) NE & Atlanta's record and 2) intra-divisional games since there is always one winner/loser is:

AFC East: 220-264 (5 playoff teams)
NFC South: 242-241-1 (11 playoff teams)

...that's not an insignificant delta in terms of divisional performance.
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My point was that having to play NE twice a year limits the playoff chances of NYJ / BUF / MIA. NE wins at the same rate whether they play the AFC East or any other opponent. Over the 11 years Ryan has been in the league, the other AFC East teams went a combined 240-288. NE went 51-15 against those teams the past 11 seasons. Just eliminating the games against the Patriots, those 3 teams went a combined 225-237. Certainly not great, but not as bad as the 220-264 record you cited. Even using your combined records, the difference works out to 2 total wins a year over the span of 11 years. Having to play the Patriots accounted for an average of 4.6 losses per year. Not really apples to apples to compare the divisions, as NE has owned their division while the AFC South has rotated who has won almost every year.

 
Anarchy99 said:
My point was that having to play NE twice a year limits the playoff chances of NYJ / BUF / MIA. NE wins at the same rate whether they play the AFC East or any other opponent. Over the 11 years Ryan has been in the league, the other AFC East teams went a combined 240-288. NE went 51-15 against those teams the past 11 seasons. Just eliminating the games against the Patriots, those 3 teams went a combined 225-237. Certainly not great, but not as bad as the 220-264 record you cited. Even using your combined records, the difference works out to 2 total wins a year over the span of 11 years. Having to play the Patriots accounted for an average of 4.6 losses per year. Not really apples to apples to compare the divisions, as NE has owned their division while the AFC South has rotated who has won almost every year.
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So in the NFC South...the teams year-in-year out are a lot more competitive.  There are dips...but both CAR and NO have been formidable for significant stretches during those 11 seasons.

Let's call a spade a spade...the reason why NYJ, MIA, and BUF aren't making the playoffs isn't because NE is in their division, it's because they have sustained stretches of futility largely as a result of an incredible lack of stability at Head Coach and QB.  While they do play NE, they also play each other and no clear #2 has really emerged when the opportunity was ripe to do so.  MIA has the best since 2008 record (83-93).  Meanwhile - NO has gone 108-68 and CAR 93-82-1.  I mean, the tougher road to hoe is clear.

 
ZenoRazon said:
When did Cunningham have any season better than Russell Wilson?

Cunningham never came lose to Russell Wilson stat  wish, not even ball park.

Hell just comp%/QB rating

Cunningham  56.6/81.5

Wilson 64.2/100.3...second best in history.

Google...both guys and find a better season for Cunningham, love to see it.

And, I do put Moon above him also.
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I think you are putting too much emphasis on stats that aren't era adjusted. Those QB stats aren't apples to apples. The average QB in the NFL, in 1990(during Moon's best year, and arguably Cunningham's) put up a 56% comp%, 2,800 yards, 16 TD's, and 13 INT's, with a rating of 78. Right now, the average QB puts up a 66% comp%, 3,700 yards, 22 TD's, and 11 INT's with a rating of 95.  

ETA: That average QB in 2018, would have been 1st in comp%, 4th in yards, 8th in TD's, 20th-ish in INT's, and 4th in passer rating. Basically, current Mitch Trubisky numbers are equal to peak Jim Kelly numbers. 

Just Win Baby said:
I disagree. What do you think is Cunningham's best season? Wilson's? Moon's? Let's compare them.
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I think Moon's best season was 1990. 62%, 4689, 33-13,  96.8, his 1995 was also great with 62%, 4228, 33-14, 91.5. Both seasons were on teams with an excellent supporting cast.

Wilson's best season was either 2015, 64%, 4024, 34-8, 110.1, or 2018, 65%, 3448, 35-7, 110.9. Both seasons had mediocre supporting casts. Better cast in 2015 than 2018.

In Cunningham's case in 1998, 60%, 3,704, 34-10, 106.0. In 1990, 58%, 3466, 30-13, 91.6. The Vikings team in 98 was loaded, the Eagles team in 90 was by far the worst supporting cast of any of these.

In addition, in 1990 Cunningham had 942-5 rushing at an incredible 8.0 YPC. Wilson in 2014 had 849-6 rushing for 7.2 YPC, but that was in 2014, which was arguably his worst passing season.

 
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TheDirtyWord said:
So in the NFC South...the teams year-in-year out are a lot more competitive.  There are dips...but both CAR and NO have been formidable for significant stretches during those 11 seasons.

Let's call a spade a spade...the reason why NYJ, MIA, and BUF aren't making the playoffs isn't because NE is in their division, it's because they have sustained stretches of futility largely as a result of an incredible lack of stability at Head Coach and QB.  While they do play NE, they also play each other and no clear #2 has really emerged when the opportunity was ripe to do so.  MIA has the best since 2008 record (83-93).  Meanwhile - NO has gone 108-68 and CAR 93-82-1.  I mean, the tougher road to hoe is clear.
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Everyone wants to put NE in another division with the expectation that the Pats would be far inferior. But there could very easily be a different outcome. Take any cross section of years and the Pats win 75-80% of the time no matter who they played. If they were in the NFC South, the other teams were would be starting the season with an average of 1.5 loses per year just having to face NE. That has essentially played out that way, as NE with TB has gone 12-3 (0.800) against the NFC South over his career. Maybe the NFC South would still have had a bunch of playoff teams over that time, but I would still have penciled in the Pats for a 12-4 record each year . . . which likely would have knocked the records down for everyone else in the division. Obviously we will never know what would have happened. The Pats likely would not have won 10 straight division titles, but overall their record most likely would have been the same or close to it.

 
travdogg said:
I think you are putting too much emphasis on stats that aren't era adjusted. Those QB stats aren't apples to apples. The average QB in the NFL, in 1990(during Moon's best year, and arguably Cunningham's) put up a 56% comp%, 2,800 yards, 16 TD's, and 13 INT's, with a rating of 78. Right now, the average QB puts up a 66% comp%, 3,700 yards, 22 TD's, and 11 INT's with a rating of 95.  

I think Moon's best season was 1990. 62%, 4689, 33-13,  96.8, his 1995 was also great with 62%, 4228, 33-14, 91.5. Both seasons were on teams with an excellent supporting cast.

Wilson's best season was either 2015, 64%, 4024, 34-8, 110.1, or 2018, 65%, 3448, 35-7, 110.9. Both seasons had mediocre supporting casts. Better cast in 2015 than 2018.

In Cunningham's case in 1998, 60%, 3,704, 34-10, 106.0. In 1990, 58%, 3466, 30-13, 91.6. The Vikings team in 98 was loaded, the Eagles team in 90 was by far the worst supporting cast of any of these.

In addition, in 1990 Cunningham had 942-5 rushing at an incredible 8.0 YPC. Wilson in 2014 had 849-6 rushing for 7.2 YPC, but that was in 2014, which was arguably his worst passing season.
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Ok, how about saw them all many times, Wilson the best then Moon then Cunningham?

 
ZenoRazon said:
Ok, how about saw them all many times, Wilson the best then Moon then Cunningham?
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# of times ranking in the Top 5 in a season in passing yards, passing TD, passer rating and total MVP votes.

Moon: 7, 5, 4 = 16 times in 17 seasons with 18 total votes for MVP
Cunningham: 2, 4, 3 = 9 times in 16 seasons with 53 total votes for MVP
Wilson: 0, 2, 3 = 5 times in 7 seasons with 0 votes for MVP

 
Anarchy99 said:
Everyone wants to put NE in another division with the expectation that the Pats would be far inferior. But there could very easily be a different outcome. Take any cross section of years and the Pats win 75-80% of the time no matter who they played. If they were in the NFC South, the other teams were would be starting the season with an average of 1.5 loses per year just having to face NE. That has essentially played out that way, as NE with TB has gone 12-3 (0.800) against the NFC South over his career. Maybe the NFC South would still have had a bunch of playoff teams over that time, but I would still have penciled in the Pats for a 12-4 record each year . . . which likely would have knocked the records down for everyone else in the division. Obviously we will never know what would have happened. The Pats likely would not have won 10 straight division titles, but overall their record most likely would have been the same or close to it.
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I know we've gone a bit off tangent here with regard to an original point I had made regarding how Matt Ryan is viewed.  Of course NE & Brady would still be the crème de la crème over the last 18 years.  They've proven that.  It's probably an insignificant factor that's been a part of NE's success and Brady's personal success.  But situationally, it's been advantageous for Brady to be in the AFC East.  I wouldn't use that as an argument to detract from NE or Brady.

However, if you read above, when Ryan's credentials are discussed, certain situational elements of his career are brought up (Julio, Dome) as a means to discredit/diminish his career accomplishments.  And from my POV...that seems - off.

 
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TheDirtyWord said:
I know we've gone a bit off tangent here with regard to an original point I had made regarding how Matt Ryan is viewed.  Of course NE & Brady would still be the crème de la crème over the last 18 years.  They've proven that.  It's probably an insignificant factor that's been a part of NE's success and Brady's personal success.  But situationally, it's been advantageous for Brady to be in the AFC East.  I wouldn't use that as an argument to detract from NE or Brady.

However, if you read above, when Ryan's credentials are discussed, certain situational elements of his career are brought up (Julio, Dome) as a means to discredit/diminish his career accomplishments.  And from my POV...that seems - off.
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I posted this in a different thread last week. I think it's a good barometer to compare recent QBs in terms of how well they have done.

Number of total times ranked in the Top 5 in passing yards, passing TD, or passer rating in a season:

Peyton - 39
Brees - 29
Favre - 28
Brady - 24
Rodgers - 17
Rivers - 16
Roethlisberger - 12
Ryan - 12
Romo - 11
Warner - 10
Palmer - 9
Culpepper - 8
Stafford - 7
Bledsoe - 7
Eli - 7

That's not a knock on Ryan, just a way to compare guys from the last 20 or so years. If Ryan keeps producing, he will start inching up this list,

 
Anarchy99 said:
# of times ranking in the Top 5 in a season in passing yards, passing TD, passer rating and total MVP votes.

Moon: 7, 5, 4 = 16 times in 17 seasons with 18 total votes for MVP
Cunningham: 2, 4, 3 = 9 times in 16 seasons with 53 total votes for MVP
Wilson: 0, 2, 3 = 5 times in 7 seasons with 0 votes for MVP
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Russell Wilson most wins in a seven season career.

Only QB in history to post two 100 QB ratings his first two seasons.

Only QB in historty to have a 4000/500/30 season.(12 yards from having two)

Played in two SB's in first three seasons.

Three times more TD;s than INT's

Most 4TH Q TD passes in a season in history.

Rookie TD record.

His 100.3 passer rating second in NFL history

NFL leader 34 TD

NFL leader 110.1  QB rating.

Wilson in with far superior defenses than back in the day

Saw Moon at Washington and the CFL, saw Cunniinham at UNLV. Russell Wilson left Wisconsin as the all time NCAA passing efficency leader for a season.

Russell the best of the three.

 
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ZenoRazon said:
Russell Wilson most wins in a seven season career.

Only QB in history to post two 100 QB ratings his first two seasons.

Only QB in histort to have a 4000/500/30 season.

Played in two SB's in first three seasons.

Three times more TD;s than INT's

Most 4TH Q TDpasses in a season in history.

His 100.3 passer rating second in NFL historty.

NFL leader 34 TD

NFL leader 110.1  QB rating.

Wilson in with far superior defenses than back in the day
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Certainly he's off to a good start. We can double back in 10 more years to see how he stacks up. We can't really discuss things that haven't happened yet. After all, Mahomes in another 15 years could have 800 TD passes if he keeps producing at his current rate.

 
Anarchy99 said:
I posted this in a different thread last week. I think it's a good barometer to compare recent QBs in terms of how well they have done.

Number of total times ranked in the Top 5 in passing yards, passing TD, or passer rating in a season:

Peyton - 39
Brees - 29
Favre - 28
Brady - 24
Rodgers - 17
Rivers - 16
Roethlisberger - 12
Ryan - 12
Romo - 11
Warner - 10
Palmer - 9
Culpepper - 8
Stafford - 7
Bledsoe - 7
Eli - 7

That's not a knock on Ryan, just a way to compare guys from the last 20 or so years. If Ryan keeps producing, he will start inching up this list,
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Poor Eli. 

 
ZenoRazon said:
Russell Wilson most wins in a seven season career.

Only QB in history to post two 100 QB ratings his first two seasons.

Only QB in historty to have a 4000/500/30 season.(12 yards from having two)

Played in two SB's in first three seasons.

Three times more TD;s than INT's

Most 4TH Q TD passes in a season in history.

Rookie TD record.

His 100.3 passer rating second in NFL history

NFL leader 34 TD

NFL leader 110.1  QB rating.

Wilson in with far superior defenses than back in the day

Saw Moon at Washington and the CFL, saw Cunniinham at UNLV. Russell Wilson left Wisconsin as the all time NCAA passing efficency leader for a season.

Russell the best of the three.
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You’re cherry picking stats. You’re all cherry picking stats that the guy you are defending is at the top of. It’s like a dog chasing it’s own tail. 

Need to decide on one barometer, which there isn’t one, on which to hold all 3. 

####, Cunningham has a 91 yard punt. In my opinion that makes him the best. 

He also had arguably the best statistical season by a QB in 1990. 

3,466 passing yards. 942 rushing yards. 35 total TDs

That was in 1990. Before QBs would sneeze and put up 3500 yards passing and 30+ TDs. 

 
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Elevencents said:
You’re cherry picking stats. You’re all cherry picking stats that the guy you are defending is at the top of. It’s like a dog chasing it’s own tail. 

Need to decide on one barometer, which there isn’t one, on which to hold all 3. 
Click to expand...
Wilson holds NFL records, his first seven seasons the best we have ever seen. And totally prepared to prove it.

Like I mentioned saw all of them many times, Wilson is on another level.

 
ZenoRazon said:
Comp %....60.3

QB rating...84.1

Seven...4000 yard seasons

Three.....30 TDseasons

Two SB wins

Hmmmmmmm?
Click to expand...
Andy Dalton

Comp %....62.3

QB rating...88.8

Two...4000 yard seasons (one less than Eli at same stage of career)

One.....30 TD seasons (Same as Eli in same stage of career)

He's Andy Dalton with an elite defense that led him two SB wins yet people are asking for Dalton to lose his job while people discuss Eli's potential for HOF.  Eli Manning is a mediocre QB who has stayed healthy and who had two short hot streaks in the playoffs.  The rest of the time he's barely been able to win half his games.  He's first ballot Hall of Mediocrity candidate. 

 
ZenoRazon said:
See my....hmmmmmmmmmm?

I;m not totally sold on the guy either.

But we can't totally ignore....

He;s number  8 all time TD passes

Number 6 all time yards.

2 time SB champ.

And if plays another season he will Fran Tarkenton in TD passes,

With so many in the HOF with far inferior numbers, yep....hmmmm?
Click to expand...
Can't compare stats from guys in the 60's, 70's, and even 80's as offenses are way different.  If you compare him to guys in his own era he's sitting there with Andy Dalton who is nearly identical statistically. 

 
Annual passer rating ranking for Eli - 

2018 - 21
2017 - 25
2016 - 22
2015 - 13
2014 - 15
2013 - 35
2012 - 14
2011 - 7
2010 - 17
2009 - 11
2008 - 15
2007 - 25
2006 - 18
2005 - 23
2004 - 34

Average - 20

Combine that with his career 116-114 and I don't see how anyone can rave about his accomplishments. Based on QB rating (intended to give a baseline for all QBs), Manning hasn't even been in the top half of starters in the league in the time he's played. Hats off to him for winning two titles, but everything else about him has been mediocre . . . no matter what his career totals say.

 
ZenoRazon said:
So longevity means nothing?
Click to expand...
Should it? Should a player get credit for being below average for a lot of years? As I posted a few posts up, Eli's average yearly ranking in passer rating has been 20th. How great could he be if an average of 19 quarterbacks per year were more productive and efficient than he was?

Eli's best selling points are he suited up every game and he played for a lot of years. That doesn't make him an elite player.

 
ZenoRazon said:
Does he sniff the top 20?
Click to expand...
I would argue he's not even top-50. I don't have a list off the top of my head, but I wonder if I'd have him in the top-10 of just NFC East QB's?

ETA: Eli Manning is Jim Hart with rings.

 
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Anarchy99 said:
Should it? Should a player get credit for being below average for a lot of years? As I posted a few posts up, Eli's average yearly ranking in passer rating has been 20th. How great could he be if an average of 19 quarterbacks per year were more productive and efficient than he was?

Eli's best selling points are he suited up every game and he played for a lot of years. That doesn't make him an elite player.
Click to expand...
I'm looking at this stat page in a magazine.(last season)

MOST TOUCHDOWNS CAREER

1.Peyton Manning

2.Brett Favre

3.Drew Brees

4.Tom Brady

5.Dan Marino

6.Fran Tarkenton..........hard to believe,

7.Philip Rivers

8.Eli Manning

MOST YARDS IN A CAREER

1. Peyton Manning

2.Brett Favre

3.Drew Brees

4.Tom Brady

5.Dan Marino

6.Eli Manning

How many QB's have won 2 or more SB;s?

Hard to....forget all tha ### means nothing he's trash.

 
travdogg said:
I would argue he's not even top-50. I don't have a list off the top of my head, but I wonder if I'd have him in the top-10 of just NFC East QB's?
Click to expand...
Cowboys...Troy Aikman....Roger Staubach....Tony Romo....Dak Prescott

Eagles...Norm Van Brocklin....Norm Snead....Ron Jaworski....Randall Cunningham...Donovan McNabb

Redskins....Slingin' Sammy Baugh....Sonny Jurgenson...Joe Theisman....Alex Smith

Giants....Charley Connerly....Y.A.Tittle....Fran Tarkenton....Jeff Hosteller...Phil Simms

Hell

Babe Parilli

Jack Kemp

Tobin Rote

Frank Tribucka

Steve Spurrier

Jake Plummer

Jim Plunkett

Tom Flores

Micky Slaughter

Bob Waterfield

Frankie Albert

Eddie LeBaron

Zeke Bradkowski

Steve Bartkowski

Joe Kapp

Willie Thrower

James Harris

Joe "Jefferson Street" Gillum

Marlin "Magician" Briscoe

Vince Evans

Milt Plum

Bill Nelson

Bill Wade

Steve McNair

Neil Lomax

 
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ZenoRazon said:
I'm looking at this stat page in a magazine.(last season)

MOST TOUCHDOWNS CAREER

1.Peyton Manning

2.Brett Favre

3.Drew Brees

4.Tom Brady

5.Dan Marino

6.Fran Tarkenton..........hard to believe,

7.Philip Rivers

8.Eli Manning

MOST YARDS IN A CAREER

1. Peyton Manning

2.Brett Favre

3.Drew Brees

4.Tom Brady

5.Dan Marino

6.Eli Manning

How many QB's have won 2 or more SB;s?

Hard to....forget all tha ### means nothing he's trash.
Click to expand...
So if Joe Flacco wins a SB on a new team, that makes him a HOFer? He has the same passer rating as Eli does. They have similar stats through a similar age. If Flacco plays 4-5 more years, he should finish with similar career totals as Eli. Except Flacco has a 96-67 record as a starter in the regular season and a 10-5 record in the post season. Compare that to Eli's 116-114 and 8-4. If Flacco went somewhere and won another title and climbed into in the Top 10 in passing yards and TD,  does that make him a HOFer or a Top 20 all-time QB? There would be very little difference between the two.

 
ZenoRazon said:
Cowboys...Troy Aikman....Roger Staubach....Tony Romo....Dak Prescott

Eagles...Norm Van Brocklin....Norm Snead....Ron Jaworski....Randall Cunningham...Donovan McNabb

Redskins....Slingin' Sammy Baugh....Sonny Jurgenson...Joe Theisman....Alex Smith

Giants....Charley Connerly....Y.A.Tittle....Fran Tarkenton....Jeff Hosteller...Phil Simms
Click to expand...
I'd have him ahead of Prescott, Smith, Hostetler, Simms, Conerly, Snead and Jaworski. 

So that is 11 I'd take over Eli. 

 
Anarchy99 said:
So if Joe Flacco wins a SB on a new team, that makes him a HOFer? He has the same passer rating as Eli does. They have similar stats through a similar age. If Flacco plays 4-5 more years, he should finish with similar career totals as Eli. Except Flacco has a 96-67 record as a starter in the regular season and a 10-5 record in the post season. Compare that to Eli's 116-114 and 8-4. If Flacco went somewhere and won another title and climbed into in the Top 10 in passing yards and TD,  does that make him a HOFer or a Top 20 all-time QB? There would be very little difference between the two.
Click to expand...
Just seems weird that we need to....forget a that it means nothing.

 
TheDirtyWord said:
when Ryan's credentials are discussed, certain situational elements of his career are brought up (Julio, Dome) as a means to discredit/diminish his career accomplishments
Click to expand...
Situational/context elements are often brought up for players when discussing their place in history. You are characterizing Julio and playing in a dome as being brought up to diminish Ryan. They aren't brought up to diminish him, they are brought up to apply context, and it has the effect of mitigating his positives to a degree. You are seeing it as a bias, when it is just the outcome of objective facts.

 
Just Win Baby said:
Situational/context elements are often brought up for players when discussing their place in history. You are characterizing Julio and playing in a dome as being brought up to diminish Ryan. They aren't brought up to diminish him, they are brought up to apply context, and it has the effect of mitigating his positives to a degree. You are seeing it as a bias, when it is just the outcome of objective facts.
Click to expand...
So playing in a Dome mitigates against Warren Moon, Peyton Manning and Drew Brees respective careers?

 
Just Win Baby said:
You narrowed the question. No, a player should not get credit for being below average for a lot of years.

Yes, longevity means something, and a player should get credit for it, provided his play is above average for a lot of years.
Click to expand...
Hmmmm?

2 SB wins

4 pro bowls

7 4000 seasons

10 3500 yards or more

7 25 or more TD;s

5  90 or more QB Rating

 
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ZenoRazon said:
I'm looking at this stat page in a magazine.(last season)

MOST TOUCHDOWNS CAREER

1.Peyton Manning

2.Brett Favre

3.Drew Brees

4.Tom Brady

5.Dan Marino

6.Fran Tarkenton..........hard to believe,

7.Philip Rivers

8.Eli Manning

MOST YARDS IN A CAREER

1. Peyton Manning

2.Brett Favre

3.Drew Brees

4.Tom Brady

5.Dan Marino

6.Eli Manning

How many QB's have won 2 or more SB;s?

Hard to....forget all tha ### means nothing he's trash.
Click to expand...
You keep pushing the same statistics and getting the same response. Are you hoping someone will just agree with you so you can move on?

 
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