Elevencents
Footballguy
Sorry, I meant HOF. Had you confused with someone else.ZenoRazon said:Did you miss my top 10 list?
Eli is a ....maybe top 20?...and I made that clear.
Sorry, I meant HOF. Had you confused with someone else.ZenoRazon said:Did you miss my top 10 list?
Eli is a ....maybe top 20?...and I made that clear.
Correct, players should be evaluated on what they did, not what might happened if x, y or z happened. Sure, it is fun to debate how well Peyton Manning could have done with Bill Belichik as his coach his whole career, or how Tom Brady would have done had he been drafted by the Bengals, or how much better Elway's stats would have been had he played his whole career with an offensive head coach, but it ultimately is just chit-chat. Players should be judged and evaluated on what they did.Is the question who is the most talented QB or who is the most accomplished? There doesn't seem to be much of an argument on the latter. I've seen the arguent that some QBs would have done as well or better than Brady but I believe in evaluating the question on what actually happened rather than on what might have happened if circustances were different.
The question of who the most talented QB may be a better debate. I'd go with Steve Young but there are several other people with good cases.
Denver's "D" took a below average Manning to the SB.Manning took 2 different teams to the SB - and won.that HAS to be worth something.
Randall Cunningham in the top 10? Instead of a knee jerk reaction which is.....noway. I need some time to look at that.Jim Kelly turned the Bills around. Everything from work ethic to game play to community...so many became similar to him. They had tons of bad draft picks before and since. I know Levy and the GM get credit but I give a lot to Kelly.
The older I get, the less I love Marino.
I can't seem to give credit to Eli and feel that's unfair but...he seems like a cog not a leader
Moon wasn't a crunch time QB and I think it shows in his record. Every game wasnt to sling it and outscore the other.
Warner brought change. Hope for UDFAs, speedy slant, NFLE...a whole lot no one gives him credit for. Was he great long?
I'd put Randall in the top ten. He was the best mobile QB and sling it QB at times and no one can change their game like he did. There's race issues he dealt with and...I think he brought change too but you can't tell me Philly Randall wasn't scary to play against or him chucking to Moss Carter and Reed. I'd probably put him 10th but he was quite a player
How good was Archie Manning? How do we know?Insomniac said:Is the question who is the most talented QB or who is the most accomplished? There doesn't seem to be much of an argument on the latter. I've seen the arguent that some QBs would have done as well or better than Brady but I believe in evaluating the question on what actually happened rather than on what might have happened if circustances were different.
The question of who the most talented QB may be a better debate. I'd go with Steve Young but there are several other people with good cases.
Brady never played Brees or Rodgers in the play-offs and only could in a SB. Brady dominated Manning overall.FYI, Brady has never beaten Brees or Rodgers in the playoffs (although he might have a chance to beat Brees in 2 1/2 weeks) and he had a losing record in the playoffs against Peyton. Just saying...
Eli Sucks. Just saying...Top 5 in interceptions . . . 6 times
Top 5 in fumbles . . . 4 times
Losing record . . . 6 times
Missed the playoffs . . . 9 times
One + done in the playoffs . . . 4 times
Career earnings . . . 2nd all time (will take over the top spot next year from his brother)
Career fumbles + interceptions . . . 6th all time
Career pick 6's . . . 7th all time
Career fumbles . . . 8th all time
Career interceptions . . . 14th all time
Career sacks . . . 15th all time
Career completion % . . . 40th all time
Career passer rating . . . 42nd all time
Career TD% . . . 68th all time
Yards per attempt . . . 85th all time
Yards per completion . . . 133rd all time
Hmmmmmmm?
It's impossible to win TWO SB, be among the best ever in career stats and suck.Eli Sucks. Just saying...
I remember LT complimenting him on and on and yet LT often thought every QB stunk and I always found that hmm...ZenoRazon said:Randall Cunningham in the top 10? Instead of a knee jerk reaction which is.....noway. I need some time to look at that.
Cunninghams career comp%....56.6. his career QB rating....81.5.I remember LT complimenting him on and on and yet LT often thought every QB stunk and I always found that hmm...
In the old videos, Parcells, Gibbs, Ditka, even Walsh rave about young Randall.
For me, it was his determination. The announcers would talk like Quick was an awesome WR and the guy would only get open deep, drove me nuts. Anyway, Randall faced best ever defenses and while most QBs crumbled, he did about every athletic thing you could think of whether it be a fake, a move, a pump, a flip, a dive. The Eagles had a few RBs that would just sort of hang around and if he needed to adlib, they were ready with a block or catching a toss. The "I'm getting this first down" mindset was something in him. Then as if he wasn't enough of a super athlete, the guy punted and well too. How the heck do you defend that?
I mocked people for taking the old man in fantasy, as I selected Jake Reed who did real well. All arrogant and all, I was so wrong. I think he lost one game that year, as a pocket QB.
I think we've wanted Vick, Kordell, RG3.....to be just like Randall, in many respects
If there was a hall of fame for avoiding injuries, Eli is a first ballot, mortal lock. How you can play as many games at QB as he has and not get hurt is amazing. Even Farve dealt with nagging injuries and played through them. Eli never even seems to have those. Maybe he has, and I just have not been aware. But his play on the field for his career has only been average to good. He just gets the benefit of being on a team that won the Super Bowl twice. And compiling lots of stats because he has never gotten hurt.It's impossible to win TWO SB, be among the best ever in career stats and suck.
Ok, a good QB who was always there for you, that'll work. Sure beats.....he sucks.If there was a hall of fame for avoiding injuries, Eli is a first ballot, mortal lock. How you can play as many games at QB as he has and not get hurt is amazing. Even Farve dealt with nagging injuries and played through them. Eli never even seems to have those. Maybe he has, and I just have not been aware. But his play on the field for his career has only been average to good. He just gets the benefit of being on a team that won the Super Bowl twice. And compiling lots of stats because he has never gotten hurt.
screw the race baiting , you don't have to go there.as a Giants fan who watched Randall C KILL the Giants all the time, he's a bonafide top 10 , I agree 100%! he was just soo good. kids nowadays who are on this site have no idea what Cunningham was all about. I HATED the Eagles ( stil do) but they, along with the Bills, were in the right place at the wrong time - Eagles had the Gibbs era, Parcells era, Jimmy Johnson era..Bills had to play ALL 3 of these teams, at their zenith, in the SB - they could've beat the g-men but didn't stand a chance v Redskins, or Dallas 2x. those Eagles' teams were something special. Reggie White.J. Brown. Byars. Randall C, bla bla bla..it's a shame they never won. they'd be talked about as one of the all-time greats had the just gotten a Lombardi trophy back then.Jim Kelly turned the Bills around. Everything from work ethic to game play to community...so many became similar to him. They had tons of bad draft picks before and since. I know Levy and the GM get credit but I give a lot to Kelly.
The older I get, the less I love Marino.
I can't seem to give credit to Eli and feel that's unfair but...he seems like a cog not a leader
Moon wasn't a crunch time QB and I think it shows in his record. Every game wasnt to sling it and outscore the other.
Warner brought change. Hope for UDFAs, speedy slant, NFLE...a whole lot no one gives him credit for. Was he great long?
I'd put Randall in the top ten. He was the best mobile QB and sling it QB at times and no one can change their game like he did. There's race issues he dealt with and...I think he brought change too but you can't tell me Philly Randall wasn't scary to play against or him chucking to Moss Carter and Reed. I'd probably put him 10th but he was quite a player
Appreciate the Eagles love. We Philly fans feel the same way, especially about 1991. One of the best defenses of all time and Randall gets knocked out for the season in the first game. Eagles still finish 10-6 even with Jim McMahon, Jeff Kemp, Brad Goebal, and Pat Ryun playing QB, but miss the playoffs.screw the race baiting , you don't have to go there.as a Giants fan who watched Randall C KILL the Giants all the time, he's a bonafide top 10 , I agree 100%! he was just soo good. kids nowadays who are on this site have no idea what Cunningham was all about. I HATED the Eagles ( stil do) but they, along with the Bills, were in the right place at the wrong time - Eagles had the Gibbs era, Parcells era, Jimmy Johnson era..Bills had to play ALL 3 of these teams, at their zenith, in the SB - they could've beat the g-men but didn't stand a chance v Redskins, or Dallas 2x. those Eagles' teams were something special. Reggie White.J. Brown. Byars. Randall C, bla bla bla..it's a shame they never won. they'd be talked about as one of the all-time greats had the just gotten a Lombardi trophy back then.
Warner was special.Jim Kelly was already in my top ten! he's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drew Brees.
Here is a list of players that ranked one spot ahead of Eli each year in passer rating to give folks a true comparison as to how Eli performed year to year.Ok, a good QB who was always there for you, that'll work. Sure beats.....he sucks.
Saw Cunningham play at UNLV also saw him high jump and run a leg on a 4x1 team.screw the race baiting , you don't have to go there.as a Giants fan who watched Randall C KILL the Giants all the time, he's a bonafide top 10 , I agree 100%! he was just soo good. kids nowadays who are on this site have no idea what Cunningham was all about. I HATED the Eagles ( stil do) but they, along with the Bills, were in the right place at the wrong time - Eagles had the Gibbs era, Parcells era, Jimmy Johnson era..Bills had to play ALL 3 of these teams, at their zenith, in the SB - they could've beat the g-men but didn't stand a chance v Redskins, or Dallas 2x. those Eagles' teams were something special. Reggie White.J. Brown. Byars. Randall C, bla bla bla..it's a shame they never won. they'd be talked about as one of the all-time greats had the just gotten a Lombardi trophy back then.
Warner was special.Jim Kelly was already in my top ten! he's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drew Brees.
I don't care, he was A "good" QB, always there for his team. A guy who can win you a SB a couple times.Here is a list of players that ranked one spot ahead of Eli each year in passer rating to give folks a true comparison as to how Eli performed year to year.
2018 - Ryan Tannehill
2017 - Cam Newton
2016 - Jameis Winston
2015 - Philip Rivers
2014 - Ryan Tannehill
2013 - Brandon Weeden
2012 - Andy Dalton
2011 - Matt Schaub
2010 - Jay Cutler
2009 - Kurt Warner
2008 - Donovan McNabb
2007 - Kyle Boller
2006 - Jon Kitna
2005 - Trent Dilfer
2004 - A.J. Feeley
Eli's career passer rating is 84.1. The average of all the QBs that finished the season ranked 20th the past 15 years is 82.5. Bottom line, Eli hasn't even been in the top half of starting QBs in the league over his career.
So now we are making a lot of the top "good" quarterbacks? For example, Jim Plunkett won two Super Bowls and was a good quarterback. Bob Griese won 2 Super Bowls and didn't even reach 100 yards passing in either game he won. I would put Eli a lot closer to those guys than many of the other guys getting discussed. Yes, Griese got inducted into the HOF, but not many people would consider him in the pantheon of the all time greatest.I don't care, he was A "good" QB, always there for his team. A guy who can win you a SB a couple times.
Who on that list can say that?
Nobody is talking about Eli among the very elite, but top 20ish, hmmmm?So now we are making a lot of the top "good" quarterbacks? For example, Jim Plunkett won two Super Bowls and was a good quarterback. Bob Griese won 2 Super Bowls and didn't even reach 100 yards passing in either game he won. I would put Eli a lot closer to those guys than many of the other guys getting discussed. Yes, Griese got inducted into the HOF, but not many people would consider him in the pantheon of the all time greatest.
No one should be talking Eli in the Top 20ish. That's been my point for 5 pages.Nobody is talking about Eli among the very elite, but top 20ish, hmmmm?
I know, and how can you keep what he has accomplished out of that top 20? Too many playoff wins, too high on the stats lists.No one should be talking Eli in the Top 20ish. That's been my point for 5 pages.
Eli has barely ranked in the Top 20 in any individual season, let alone all time. If longevity alone makes you a Top 20 talent, then you win this debate.I know, and how can you keep what he has accomplished out of that top 20? Too many playoff wins, too high on the stats lists.
Two SB winsEli has barely ranked in the Top 20 in any individual season, let alone all time. If longevity alone makes you a Top 20 talent, then you win this debate.
Horse hockey.Two SB wins
Among the best ever stat wise
RELIABLE for a long time.
How about number 20?
I agree with this point. Durability is something that gets glossed over quite a bit. Especially given the typical dropoff from most NFL starters to their backups. Playing every game for so long provided significant value to his team.Ok, a good QB who was always there for you, that'll work. Sure beats.....he sucks.
Eli number 8 all time TD passesHorse hockey.
Not to mention the rest of the teams in the NFC East.I agree with this point. Durability is something that gets glossed over quite a bit. Especially given the typical dropoff from most NFL starters to their backups. Playing every game for so long provided significant value to his team.
No way. There are currently 34 QBs in the HOF, with Peyton, Brees, Brady, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Eli, and (IMO) Rivers on the way to joining them. That is 41 QBs.Two SB wins
Among the best ever stat wise
RELIABLE for a long time.
How about number 20?
How many won more SB's?No way. There are currently 34 QBs in the HOF, with Peyton, Brees, Brady, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Eli, and (IMO) Rivers on the way to joining them. That is 41 QBs.
I don't know much at all about Earl Clark, Jimmy Conzelman, John Driscoll, Benny Friedman, Arnie Herber, or Ace Parker, who all played in the 1920s-1940s, so I will exclude them, leaving 35 QBs remaining in my group.
Without looking into it deeply, I can't see ranking Eli above the bottom 5 of that group, and he could literally be last. So he isn't top 30, much less top 20.
Depending on how to rank him amongst those older QBs I excluded, he might not even be top 35.
If these are the only questions you think matter, there is no point continuing this conversation.How many won more SB's?
How many had more TD;s?
How many had more yards?
How many won more games?
Let's not forget 14th all-time in interceptions, 85th in yards per attempt and a whopping 42nd all-time in passer rating. Impressive.Eli number 8 all time TD passes
Eli number 6 all time yards.
Who trolls, yep, some dumb kid.If these are the only questions you think matter, there is no point continuing this conversation.
Based on this and other threads, I have to conclude you are just trolling.
So no HOF?Let's not forget 14th all-time in interceptions, 85th in yards per attempt and a whopping 42nd all-time in passer rating. Impressive.
lord almighty. Your own freakin words in the original post were: "Key words....All Time. So it's more about dominance of era than just stats, numbers."Eli number 8 all time TD passes
Eli number 6 all time yards.
I was asked where he was stat wise, so I showed him. I didn't just toss it out.lord almighty. Your own freakin words in the original post were: "Key words....All Time. So it's more about dominance of era than just stats, numbers."
And then anyone who responds with info that shows he WASN'T dominant during his own era compared to other QBs, you decide to throw stats like "number 8 all time TD passes", etc.
Dude, the past 15-20 years QB stats are exponentially higher (exaggeration) than those from previous generations of QBs with how the game has changed.
You're moving the goal post like crazy with this Eli Top 20 defense.
I'm convinced that you're just using all these different "all time" and "top 10" threads to show off how much NFL history you know and take any chance to whip that out and swing it around.
Amen.Eli's rankings among active players . . .
Completion % - 22nd
Passing Yds / G - 11th
INT % - 23rd
TD% - 13th
Y/A - 17th
Adj Y/A - 22nd
QB Rating - 22nd
Yes, we all get that he has played a long time and compiled a bunch of statistics. He had two great post season runs that resulted in SB wins.
But in the NFL, being below average for many, many years actually HURTS a team . . . and the Giants mediocre record (.504) reflects that.
At what point was Eli considered a Top 5 QB over the course of his career?
Yes, with Eli playing in this era and playing in 230 games, his career numbers will blow past QBs from other eras. Put another way, once someone like Matt Ryan catches up to Eli in seasons played (4 years younger), Ryan will have 9,000-10,000 more passing yards than Eli did. Matt Stafford is 7 years younger. He could end up 10K or 12K more than Eli.
IMO, it's hard (at the moment) to make a truly compelling case for those two guys as a Top 20 QB. Yeah, I get it. Eli has two rings and they don't. Put the point remains, once the old vanguard of QBs from the 2000s retire and the new breed and current crop of QBs retire, Eli could very easily fall out of the Top 10 in total stats . . . then out of the Top 15 . . . then out of the Top 20. Hats off to him for having a couple great team years and playing a long time (and making a ton of $$$). But IMO it's hard to view him as anything but a compiler that went on two great post season runs fueled by the strength of the Giants defense.
Eli's rankings among active players . . .
Completion % - 22nd
Passing Yds / G - 11th
INT % - 23rd
TD% - 13th
Y/A - 17th
Adj Y/A - 22nd
QB Rating - 22nd
Yes, we all get that he has played a long time and compiled a bunch of statistics. He had two great post season runs that resulted in SB wins.
But in the NFL, being below average for many, many years actually HURTS a team . . . and the Giants mediocre record (.504) reflects that.
At what point was Eli considered a Top 5 QB over the course of his career?
Yes, with Eli playing in this era and playing in 230 games, his career numbers will blow past QBs from other eras. Put another way, once someone like Matt Ryan catches up to Eli in seasons played (4 years younger), Ryan will have 9,000-10,000 more passing yards than Eli did. Matt Stafford is 7 years younger. He could end up 10K or 12K more than Eli.
IMO, it's hard (at the moment) to make a truly compelling case for those two guys as a Top 20 QB. Yeah, I get it. Eli has two rings and they don't. Put the point remains, once the old vanguard of QBs from the 2000s retire and the new breed and current crop of QBs retire, Eli could very easily fall out of the Top 10 in total stats . . . then out of the Top 15 . . . then out of the Top 20. Hats off to him for having a couple great team years and playing a long time (and making a ton of $$$). But IMO it's hard to view him as anything but a compiler that went on two great post season runs fueled by the strength of the Giants defense.
andAmen.
And your argument will mean nothing to ZenoRazon.
Did Eli steal your girl? Shoot your bulldog? Why are working soooooooooooooooooo damn hard with this,.it's getting freaky.Looking at the quarterbacks who overlapped Eli's career, here are the guys up for consideration just as a comparison to Eli.
Guys with long-term careers that many will consider better (in no order):
- Brady, Peyton, Brees, Favre, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Warner, Rivers
Some may say Rivers may not belong in a "better than Eli" group. C'est la vie. The only thing he doesn't have is post season success.
Call me in another 5-7 years and we can revisit:
- Wilson, Luck, Ryan, Newton, Stafford, Flacco
Stafford and Flacco are reaches, but Stafford's career numbers are inflated and Flacco could go somewhere and win a second ring. Unlikely, sure, but crazier things have happened.
Who knows what will happen, but check back after a decade passes:
Mahomes, Wentz, Watson, Goff, Mayfield, Trubisky, Prescott, etc.
You can add in any other young QB for that matter.So much is left to be written about these guys that it's hard to really evaluate them as all time greats or HOF candidates.
The point being, there could be 15 quarterbacks just in the group of players whose careers intersected with Eli's that history will show were as good or better than Eli.