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Potential NFL competitive integrity issue brought to light in Rams @ Saints game (1 Viewer)

And to add, It's obvious to everyone but it's still worth saying. 

This didn't cost the Saints the Super Bowl. This cost the Saints a shot at the Super Bowl and beating the Patriots. It's easy to argue like this no call took the Lombardi Trophy away from the Saints. They still had a huge obstacle with New England to win the Super Bowl. 

 
modogg said:
So it has been some time since this non call. I know the emotions are high right after the game, but do people still feel the same way?
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Visit Saintsreport.com sometime. It's a welcoming board that doesn't run opposing fans off for posting unpopular opinions. It'll give you the temperature of Saints fandom at any given moment. Safe to say the non-call will never, ever completely stop being discussed.

The longer Payton and some drag this out, the worse they look.
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Modogg ... I might have missed something, but I don't believe Sean Payton has addressed the no-call beyond the post-game press conference. The players that have spoken and/or gone on social media have taken the high road, so far as I have seen.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Yes, but not like this one.

Do you agree if the refs get this one thing right, the Saints take 3 kneel downs and kick a chip shot to go to the Super Bowl?
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I view it in the same vein as the Blair Walsh miss in '15 or Gary Anderson's miss in '98, for example.

The timing of those misses were terrible. But they alone didn't cause the Vikings' losses.

I understand that it's actions of players vs referees in that comparison. I'm just saying the timing is irrelevant in the big picture of an entire game.

Having said all that, I wouldn't think it improper if the NFL instituted a review system to get these calls right in the last two minutes or so.

 
Joe Bryant said:
And to add, It's obvious to everyone but it's still worth saying. 

This didn't cost the Saints the Super Bowl. This cost the Saints a shot at the Super Bowl and beating the Patriots. It's easy to argue like this no call took the Lombardi Trophy away from the Saints. They still had a huge obstacle with New England to win the Super Bowl. 
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Kind of the one consolation I have rattling around in my brain right now.

 
Doug B said:
Normally, seeing a foul like Robey-Coleman's would lead at least to a reflexive flag-throw from a ref. A flag that would be thrown without thinking ... no interpretation of the act necessary, no guesswork. Like Charles Martin body-slamming Jim McMahon out in the open -- the flag comes out immediately.

For the flag NOT to come out Sunday, IMHO, means that a willful determination not to throw a flag had to have been made in advance of the snap. I don't mean an act of malice -- I mean an ethic of "a flag won't decide this playoff game" taken too far. That's why I feel it wasn't a mistake or a missed call -- can't be missed because it was clearly seen by two officials at a minimum. The most charitable explanation I can summon would be that both near officials froze up (due to the pre-decision not to throw a game-deciding flag) and then upon recognition that an over-the-top foul occurred -- for whatever reason -- they could not bring themselves to counter their immediate lack of action (say, by conferencing with each other and then throwing a belated, but correct, flag).
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7o4Btr0-MM

Something like the 2:00 mark

or more along the lines of 6:25 where the Saints defender has a handful?

 
Joe Bryant said:
There was one person @Doug B saying that and he's changed his opinion. I called him on it too.
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I am now aware there have been some revisions that offer a bit more nuance and latitude, though the underlying concept of predetermination remains.  Perhaps I’ve misread the revisions, but I have yet to see a complete walk-back, which I still think unfairly maligns another human being who made an egregious but most likely honest error. To suggest otherwise is a pretty radical and probably unfair accusation.  

 
Joe Bryant said:
You probably should go back and edit your original post with an added note to how you feel now. 

Accusing a ref of throwing a game is a giant accusation.
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Done. A good suggestion.

I will say that even my original take was not an accusation of game-fixing -- I was and am open-minded about non-malicious reasons for not throwing a flag after the foul was recognized. I did say in a later post that I was agnostic on the matter, however.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Yes, but not like this one.

Do you agree if the refs get this one thing right, the Saints take 3 kneel downs and kick a chip shot to go to the Super Bowl?
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I agree with your second sentence but so what?  That call was missed and the Saints had to play on.

Once the call was missed, do you agree the Saints still could have won the game?  I know your answer is going to be "but it shouldn't have been necessary" and I say "but it was necessary".  I just really, really, really, really hate blaming officials for the outcome of games.  I took a quick look at NFL.COM and there were 18 snaps after the Saints kicked the FG.  They didn't do enough on those 18 snaps and in fact gave up 6 points on those 18 snaps.

 
cobalt_27 said:
I am now aware there have been some revisions that offer a bit more nuance and latitude, though the underlying concept of predetermination remains. 
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The possible nature of the predetermination is what I've come around on. Initially (Sunday night), I wrote that I thought that the foul was seen, noted as a penalty, and ignored. IMHO, saying that doesn't quite lead straight to "fixed game".

Thinking on it some more since, I think more of what happened is that two or more officials had it in their heads to not let a flag determine the outcome of the game. That their minds were primed this way in advance of the snap. Generally, that's not a bad way to approach calling a tight game with high stakes ... but this time it led to an ironic result (ref action directly determining the outcome anyway). Here's how I phrased that concept earlier today:

Normally, seeing a foul like Robey-Coleman's would lead at least to a reflexive flag-throw from a ref. A flag that would be thrown without thinking ... no interpretation of the act necessary, no guesswork. Like Charles Martin body-slamming Jim McMahon out in the open -- the flag comes out immediately.

For the flag NOT to come out Sunday, IMHO, means that a willful determination not to throw a flag had to have been made in advance of the snap. I don't mean an act of malice -- I mean an ethic of "a flag won't decide this playoff game" taken too far. That's why I feel it wasn't a mistake or a missed call -- can't be missed because it was clearly seen by two officials at a minimum. The most charitable explanation I can summon would be that both near officials froze up (due to the pre-decision not to throw a game-deciding flag) and then upon recognition that an over-the-top foul occurred -- for whatever reason -- they could not bring themselves to counter their immediate lack of action (say, by conferencing with each other and then throwing a belated, but correct, flag).
Click to expand...

 
Steeler said:
I just really, really, really, really hate blaming officials for the outcome of games.
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Yeah, but there has to be limit to that preference. For you, it might be an official tripping a player on the field of play or something like that. But IMHO, the line can credibly be drawn elsewhere. People will differ on the specifics, of course.

 
Doug B said:
The possible nature of the predetermination is what I've come around on. Initially (Sunday night), I wrote that I thought that the foul was seen, noted as a penalty, and ignored. IMHO, saying that doesn't quite lead straight to "fixed game".

Thinking on it some more since, I think more of what happened is that two or more officials had it in their heads to not let a flag determine the outcome of the game. That their minds were primed this way in advance of the snap. Generally, that's not a bad way to approach calling a tight game with high stakes ... but this time it led to an ironic result (ref action directly determining the outcome anyway). Here's how I phrased that concept earlier today:
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I find that a more charitable and fair interpretation.  

 
Andy Dufresne said:
I view it in the same vein as the Blair Walsh miss in '15 or Gary Anderson's miss in '98, for example.
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But those were at least left to the players on the field. Also, the no-call rewarded a blatantly illegal defensive strategy -- lay out the WR when beat, and make the ref flag it.

How would you have felt, for example, after Gary Anderson's kick if an Atlanta defender just laid him out after the ball was kicked. No tipped ball or anything -- just a blatant layout. And then the refs don't call roughing the kicker. To me, what happened Sunday was more comparable to that kind of thing.

 
Doug B said:
But those were at least left to the players on the field. Also, the no-call rewarded a blatantly illegal defensive strategy -- lay out the WR when beat, and make the ref flag it.

How would you have felt, for example, after Gary Anderson's kick if an Atlanta defender just laid him out after the ball was kicked. No tipped ball or anything -- just a blatant layout. And then the refs don't call roughing the kicker. To me, what happened Sunday was more comparable to that kind of thing.
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So basically 2009.

 
Doug B said:
ref action directly determining the outcome
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The ref (in)action incorrectly prolonged the game.  The outcome was determined in the 18 snaps that followed.  The Saints lost those 18 snaps 6 to 0.  I swear I will try to stay away from this thread because nobody is changing their mind, but the disregard for what happened after that horribly bad call is frustrating.

 
GroveDiesel said:
The non-call was egregious.

But I think that nothing being done about the fans blowing ref whistles all game was a huge competitive integrity issue as well.
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####### i said the same thing at another forum and some Saints fan went from "that's not actually happening, bro" to "those are just fan's whistling with their mouths" to "it's so loud in there that nobody can hear those whistles" to "ok, maybe it's one guy with a whistle" to "it could be a handful of people but it doesn't matter" to "it's not illegal for fans to have whistles, chief" to "and even if half the crowd had whistles what was the NFL going do to about it anyways?" to "it's not even impacting the game so it doesn't matter".
 

that whistling was making me crazy. felt like hallucinations at first and then like torture before it faded in to the background like lifelong tinnutis after a while.

 
Steeler said:
The ref (in)action incorrectly prolonged the game.  The outcome was determined in the 18 snaps that followed.  The Saints lost those 18 snaps 6 to 0.  I swear I will try to stay away from this thread because nobody is changing their mind, but the disregard for what happened after that horribly bad call is frustrating.
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I'll put it this way for those lurking, even in recognition of the bolded: The no-call forced the Saints to try to win the game twice -- once up to the point of the no-call, and then again afterwards. I understand that your mileage varies.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Do you disagree if the right PI call is made, the Saints would have run the clock down and then kicked the chip shot FG?
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Of course not.  But the game was tied.  They would have gotten a short field goal attempt, and if they'd converted, they'd have kicked off with just a few seconds left.  They probably would have made the field goal, and the rams probably would not have run it back or completed a long enough pass and the saints probably wouldn't have committed a penalty to help them.  

But we don't know that.  Maybe there's another stefon diggs play.  That's basically the exact thing that happened to the saints last year.  Maybe they pull off a return like the dolphins did against the pats. We don't know what would have happened. 

We do know zeuerlein kicked a field goal to get to overtime and then kicked a 57 yarder that looked easy for him.  We do know what happened in overtime once they actually tied, so i think we can say that just getting a short field goal opportunity does not mean the saints win.  

Same thing goes for the Dee Ford offsides play. Everyone is acting like that would have been game over.  There was over a minute left and the Patriots had all 3 timeouts.  If you've watched any football the last two decades you know the game would not have been over yet.  

Fans like to say this one play decided the game but they have convenient memories.  Didn't the rams win at least in part because they fake punted on 4th and 5 in the first half?  The Patriots almost lost because the refs took an unusual amount of time to confirm that there should be 16 seconds left on the game clock and gave the chiefs an easy free shot at the end zone. 

It's a bummer because these were two teally good games.  Two conference championships that went to overtime. One featured two field goals in the last two minutes of play and 3s decided on a ridiculous interception followed by a game winning 57 yard field goal.  The other featured a combined 3 touchdowns and a field goal in the final 3:33 of action. 

And we're talking about a call that probably but not definitely would have decided one of the games.

 
Doug B said:
But those were at least left to the players on the field. Also, the no-call rewarded a blatantly illegal defensive strategy -- lay out the WR when beat, and make the ref flag it.

How would you have felt, for example, after Gary Anderson's kick if an Atlanta defender just laid him out after the ball was kicked. No tipped ball or anything -- just a blatant layout. And then the refs don't call roughing the kicker. To me, what happened Sunday was more comparable to that kind of thing.
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You're parsing my argument to further your point and disregarding mine. I can't continue with this.

 
Doug B said:
Hov34 said:
Then why should anyone here take you rantings seriously?  Serious question.
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People may decide for themselves to take the arguments seriously on their own merits, or not. The issues exist independent of my opinion of the 2009 NFC title game.
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No they don't.  You're asking me to care about something that you yourself said didn't bother you because it would taint that ring in your avatar. 

If you at least had the balls to say, yes, the 2009 Saints got call after call after call, all while trying to decapitate Brett Favre (and not getting called for it), then I might take your arguments seriously.  But you didn't care, so why should I?

 
Hov34 said:
No they don't.  You're asking me to care about something that you yourself said didn't bother you because it would taint that ring in your avatar. 

If you at least had the balls to say, yes, the 2009 Saints got call after call after call, all while trying to decapitate Brett Favre (and not getting called for it), then I might take your arguments seriously.  But you didn't care, so why should I?
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I never said the bolded:

3 hours ago, Doug B said:

3 hours ago, Hov34 said:

By the way, you never answered the question from the post in the original thread.  Were you complaining about "competitive integrity issue with non-calls" in 2010?
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No. Never conceived of the 2009 NFC title game in those terms. Don't care to go down the rabbit hole in this thread ... I think it's safe to say we're pretty dug in, and we're not going to show each other anything new to change minds.

Short answer is "no".
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...

I'd like to think we (the overall board, not necessarily you and I) can discuss and debate the Sunday no-call, possible reasons, possible league reactions, etc. without bringing my opinions on other matters into it. Of course, you're free to dismiss whatever I write on whatever basis suits you. No hard feelings from my end.

 
Doug B said:
(originally posted in the NFC Championship Game thread, slight edits herein)

Yeah, I understand. It's fun to see a hated team and an arrogant coach get jobbed. Get what's coming to them. Wouldn't expect less from Vikings, Falcons, Eagles, Panthers fans, etc. You guys are the faithful opposition. And from the Saints' perspective, heavy is the head that wears the crown (or, is the #1 seed with a jerk coach). OK.

But even among those who love seeing the Saints lose ... doesn't anyone from that group sees that there is a competitive integrity issue with non-calls like that? Forget who should've won or lost. Forget Payton's play-calling. Forget previous bad calls during the game. Focus in on that one call, in the moment, in a vacuum.

Either Robey-Coleman's leveling of Tommy Lee Lewis is a legal defensive tactic or not. Though it's called a "judgement call", that's not supposed to mean an "if I feel like it" call. Or an "I want the game called loose" call. It's supposed to mean that a given rule won't always be obvious to enforce ... there will be a spectrum of outcomes and there will be indistinct areas therein. However -- calls on the "obvious" edge of the spectrum have to be made, every time. You can't fall back on "judgement call" in a case like that one. That looks horrible, and the what-ifs write themselves -- hey that ref took cash from a gambler, but who'll ever know? It was just a "judgement call", after all.

Isn't the integrity of the game above Sean Payton getting his, or Vikings fans having schadenfreude for 2009?
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No one likes fouling on purpose in basketball but we see it at the end of alot of close games. If that's the line of thinking with the DB hit (I don't see the benefit of an expected penalty but...) so what. I think there's a lot of hits and cheap shots we don't see in games. I often notice stuff between the linemen on gamepass and think holy cr. 

I've been saying for years, "add more refs then" and it's one of those ideas where you have it, think it's the answer and can't let it go. Maybe I'm wrong, just where I'm at. I wouldn't care if there are 20 refs and games are called super well. It's not like they can't afford it. There's this call, the times there wasn't a good angle, the non-reviewable....add more refs then. 

I have spoken with some refs over the years. People do miss that they communicate and react to each other and the game like some well designed NBA offense against an NFL defense. Sometimes, yeah there is no way that old guy was getting down the field in time. The movements and reactionary movements are more than I realized til I was schooled by them. But, I never feel bad for them. Don't do a young man's job. Have more refs then. 

I don't like the NFL reacting to everything after the fact. Years ago, when Fisher was on the competition committee, he was so vocal. I enjoyed reading about all that. It seems like when he got bumped off, they stopped letting the public know everything. I mean it was like a town hall open meeting with minutes and...fascinating. I don't generally trust when committees are private or switch to being more private.

I think people overstate Sean Payton in so many ways. I doubt he wins without Brees and I bet that is common in NFL circles. To have all this anger and venom for a guy, that's probably not true or exaggerated.  I remember Coughlin being hated and Belichick being hated and...wasn't Mangini the DC for San Fran recently? 

 
Doug B said:
First and goal on the three.
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Right. How does that change anything from what i said though?  The rams had a timeout left and would have gotten the ball back no matter what the saints did.  If they score a touchdown the rams get to try to score a touchdown.  The pass interference call should have been made and it would have given the saints a very good chance to win but it didn't decide the game. That's what joe asked me about 

 
bostonfred said:
Of course not.  But the game was tied.  They would have gotten a short field goal attempt, and if they'd converted, they'd have kicked off with just a few seconds left.  They probably would have made the field goal, and the rams probably would not have run it back or completed a long enough pass and the saints probably wouldn't have committed a penalty to help them.  

But we don't know that.  




2




2
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Sure. We don't know with 100% certainty.

But we can estimate. What would you estimate the chances of this happening in that situation:

1. Saints run the clock to a few seconds.

2. Make the chip shot FG

3. Rams don't score on the kickoff with a few seconds left

 
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Andy Dufresne said:
I view it in the same vein as the Blair Walsh miss in '15 or Gary Anderson's miss in '98, for example.

The timing of those misses were terrible. But they alone didn't cause the Vikings' losses.

I understand that it's actions of players vs referees in that comparison. I'm just saying the timing is irrelevant in the big picture of an entire game.

Having said all that, I wouldn't think it improper if the NFL instituted a review system to get these calls right in the last two minutes or so.
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Do you agree if the refs get this one thing right, the Saints take 3 kneel downs and kick a chip shot to go to the Super Bowl?

 
Steeler said:
I agree with your second sentence but so what?  That call was missed and the Saints had to play on.

Once the call was missed, do you agree the Saints still could have won the game?  I know your answer is going to be "but it shouldn't have been necessary" and I say "but it was necessary".  I just really, really, really, really hate blaming officials for the outcome of games.  I took a quick look at NFL.COM and there were 18 snaps after the Saints kicked the FG.  They didn't do enough on those 18 snaps and in fact gave up 6 points on those 18 snaps.





1
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This is where people seem to not understand the timing. 

The only plays that should have happened after are 3 kneel downs, a made chip shot and the Rams only having a few seconds to score. 

If this play happens in the 2nd quarter, then you can talk about all the football played after. That's not this though.

This isn't blaming.

This is an egregiously bad blown no call from a referee changing the outcome assuming a chip shot FG and not allowing a runback on the kickoff. That's precisely what has me so invested in this. 

 
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Doug B said:
I'll put it this way for those lurking, even in recognition of the bolded: The no-call forced the Saints to try to win the game twice -- once up to the point of the no-call, and then again afterwards. I understand that your mileage varies.
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This seems ridiculously obvious.  Hard to see how anyone could disagree.

 
Doug B said:
Unless you're saying the league sanctions 9-year-old make-up calls, you're missing the point entirely. What does the Saints "deserving" come-uppance have to do with this discussion? The no-call needed to happen to a team with a "clean history" to be worthy of discussion?
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I'm not missing the point at all, you are.  Sometimes you're the hammer, sometimes you're the nail.  

Just enjoy the NBA handing you Anthony Davis and the refs gifting you the week 15 win against the Panthers.  If the refs had not handed the Saints that game, your team would have been getting blown out in LA anyway.  Well actually you would have lost the week prior to Dallas again.

 
Joe Bryant said:
That's the thing.

Do you remember it happening in a game this big where literally history and legacies are changed because of one blown call?

I don't think that happens very often.

In fact, I can't remember when a single obviously non call changed the result of the Championship game. 
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Tuck rule?

 
Joe Bryant said:
Sure. We don't know with 100% certainty.

But we can estimate. What would you estimate the chances of this happening in that situation:

1. Saints run the clock to a few seconds.

2. Make the chip shot FG

3. Rams don't score on the kickoff with a few seconds left
Click to expand...
I would say the chances of the Rams winning were statistically higher this this happening https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y87uP3exFjc

Of course this could have happened on the kickoff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YXwuaniPoc

Maybe that wasn't a big enough rivalry and the Rams had time to pull out The Play https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nC55Kv2sKM

Are you going to tell me miracles don't happen in  NFL playoff games? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCJFmL4oxPE

 
Joe Bryant said:
Sure. We don't know with 100% certainty.

But we can estimate. What would you estimate the chances of this happening in that situation:

1. Saints run the clock to a few seconds.

2. Make the chip shot FG

3. Rams don't score on the kickoff with a few seconds left
Click to expand...
Instead of giving you made up numbers, i'll simply remind you that you're asking a Patriot fan, who watched the dolphins return the final kick for a touchdown this year,  about the saints,  who watched diggs score a touchdown on the final play of a playoff game almost a year ago to the day.  

 
BassNBrew said:
I would say the chances of the Rams winning were statistically higher this this happening https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y87uP3exFjc

Of course this could have happened on the kickoff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YXwuaniPoc

Maybe that wasn't a big enough rivalry and the Rams had time to pull out The Play https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nC55Kv2sKM

Are you going to tell me miracles don't happen in  NFL playoff games? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCJFmL4oxPE
Click to expand...
Sure. Anything can happen.

What would you estimate the chances of this happening in that situation:

1. Saints run the clock to a few seconds.

2. Make the chip shot FG

3. Rams don't score on the kickoff with a few seconds left

 
bostonfred said:
Instead of giving you made up numbers, i'll simply remind you that you're asking a Patriot fan, who watched the dolphins return the final kick for a touchdown this year,  about the saints,  who watched diggs score a touchdown on the final play of a playoff game almost a year ago to the day.  
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Sure. Can you estimate what you think the chances of something like that happening again would be?

 
Joe Bryant said:
Sure. Anything can happen.

What would you estimate the chances of this happening in that situation:

1. Saints run the clock to a few seconds. 99%

2. Make the chip shot FG 97%

3. Rams don't score on the kickoff with a few seconds left 95%
Click to expand...
Sadly for me and probably quite a few next season football ends at conclusion of fantasy football (end Week 16). I won’t watch any more “playoff” football starting with this year”s Super Bowl who got there via refs undeserved.

 
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Joe Bryant said:
bostonfred said:
Instead of giving you made up numbers, i'll simply remind you that you're asking a Patriot fan, who watched the dolphins return the final kick for a touchdown this year,  about the saints,  who watched diggs score a touchdown on the final play of a playoff game almost a year ago to the day.  
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Sure. Can you estimate what you think the chances of something like that happening again would be?
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Fred, I think we are being trolled by the owner of this site.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Sure. Anything can happen.

What would you estimate the chances of this happening in that situation:

1. Saints run the clock to a few seconds.

2. Make the chip shot FG

3. Rams don't score on the kickoff with a few seconds left
Click to expand...
1. 0% because the Saints kicked a field goal just after the 2 minute warning.

2. 100% because the Saints made the field goal.

3. 100%, took the Rams 1:26 to kick a field goal.

 
BassNBrew said:
1. 0% because the Saints kicked a field goal just after the 2 minute warning.

2. 100% because the Saints made the field goal.

3. 100%, took the Rams 1:26 to kick a field goal.
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Sorry if I wasn't clear. I mean what would you estimate the chance that all 3 happen as Washington Post laid out.

It was a clear pass interference, for any observer with an elementary understanding of football, and if called it would have essentially guaranteed the Saints a trip to the Super Bowl. Coach Sean Payton had already formulated his plan: he would kneel three times, drain the clock, call for a chip-shot field goal and make travel plans for Atlanta.
Click to expand...

 
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Joe Bryant said:
Win Probability chart for NE at MIA game.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/12/miami-dolphins-patriots-miracle-kenyan-drake-td-gronk-win-probability-chart-photos
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We get it.  It wasn't likely to happen.  We also get a weekly article in our inbox filled with random shots that weren't likely to happen.  ESPN runs a segment every night with ten things likely not to happen.  SVP runs a bad beat segment every week after MNF that is littered with crazy, impossible endings.

 
BassNBrew said:
We get it.  It wasn't likely to happen.  We also get a weekly article in our inbox filled with random shots that weren't likely to happen.  ESPN runs a segment every night with ten things likely not to happen.  SVP runs a bad beat segment every week after MNF that is littered with crazy, impossible endings.
Click to expand...
And I see your side too. The Miami Miracle or the Band is On the Field do happen and they make sports fun. 

 
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