Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
ZenoRazon

Greatest Football Player???

Recommended Posts

18 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

You can't be serious.

 

I am serious. You think 5-10 and 185 he could play all positions today? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

In track we have sprinters, jumpers, throwers, then we have the decathlete who can do it all.  No he can;t beat any of those athletes in their event but he can do all the events.

This is about that, that guy who is the best "football player" not QB, RB, TE....etc.

Bill Dudley is the only HOF player who played on every team on a football team. The guy could do it all, everything. He has to be the best football player since there was nothing he couldn't do on a football field.

No other player in NFL history scored 10 different ways but Dudley.

Ah. So it is Greatest Jack of All Trades which, I think you can see by most of the people replying to this thread, is not how many have interpreted the thread title.

To me, and we'll see if others agree, the Greatest Football Player is the player who you think would have the most positive effect on winning the game. Brady has proven to be that guy.

If you truly want the best Jack of All Trades, I don't think the thread title is doing you any favors.

ETA: I see that Anarchy suggested the same thread title change at the top of page 2 of this thread, so sorry for the repeat, but I think you can see a trend here....

Edited by joey

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ilov80s said:

I am serious. You think 5-10 and 185 he could play all positions today? 

Do you think Rocky Marciano is knocking out these guys today and going 48-0?

Do you think Jesse Owens is beating these guys today, talking......high school kids.

How would Jim Brown do today?

How about Otto Graham, Don Hutson, THE FEARSOME FOURSOME, John Unitas?

It's never ever about.....could they play/fight/run today...never~~~~

Bill Dudley totally dominated every football game he ever played in, he was all over the place,  he did it all. When he did that a total non factor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

Do you think Rocky Marciano is knocking out these guys today and going 48-0?

Do you think Jesse Owens is beating these guys today, talking......high school kids.

How would Jim Brown do today?

How about Otto Graham, Don Hutson, THE FEARSOME FOURSOME, John Unitas?

It's never ever about.....could they play/fight/run today...never~~~~

Bill Dudley totally dominated every football game he ever played in, he was all over the place,  he did it all. When he did that a total non factor.

If Jesse Owens was born in 2000 and given access to all the training, nutrition and equipment that modern runners get than I think he would be a top level Olympic athlete. If trained and educated as QBs are today than Unitas would be a modern All Pro. If Bill Dudley was given all the modern training, nutrition, etc. than I think he would probably be a very good to great WR, KR/PR or CB. The list of guys who could play NFL WR, KR/PR or CB is a very long list. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, joey said:

Ah. So it is Greatest Jack of All Trades which, I think you can see by most of the people replying to this thread, is not how many have interpreted the thread title.

To me, and we'll see if others agree, the Greatest Football Player is the player who you think would have the most positive effect on winning the game. Brady has proven to be that guy.

If you truly want the best Jack of All Trades, I don't think the thread title is doing you any favors.

ETA: I see that Anarchy suggested the same thread title change at the top of page 2 of this thread, so sorry for the repeat, but I think you can see a trend here....

The thread  title is totally right on the money.  The Greatest Football player fits perfectly. 

How can a guy who can't block, tackle, catch, run, be a better "football player" than someone who can?

Tom Brady can't block, can't actually run, can't actually catch, can't tackle, can't do much of anything on a fotball field other than throw a football, how can this be a great football player?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

The thread  title is totally right on the money.  The Greatest Football player fits perfectly. 

How can a guy who can't block, tackle, catch, run, be a better "football player" than someone who can?

Tom Brady can't block, can't actually run, can't actually catch, can't tackle, can't do much of anything on a fotball field other than throw a football, how can this be a great football player?

Because football is a very specialized sport at the upper levels and  quarterback is the most important position. Seems crazy to say someone can't be the best player ever because they play the most important position. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

If Jesse Owens was born in 2000 and given access to all the training, nutrition and equipment that modern runners get than I think he would be a top level Olympic athlete. If trained and educated as QBs are today than Unitas would be a modern All Pro. If Bill Dudley was given all the modern training, nutrition, etc. than I think he would probably be a very good to great WR, KR/PR or CB. The list of guys who could play NFL WR, KR/PR or CB is a very long list. 

Jesse Owens ran at a time when we saw very few African Americans in track, so to say he could do this that once that changed,  really can't do it.  Would he have been all that competing against a stiffer level of competition back then?

The bottom like however is all that really matters is that dominance of era.

This seasons Clemson football team would have destroyed those Lombardi Packer teams, way too big and fast. But....simply doesn't matter.

Edited by ZenoRazon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Because football is a very specialized sport at the upper levels and  quarterback is the most important position. Seems crazy to say someone can't be the best player ever because they play the most important position. 

Let's do this....

Tom Brady shows up for your team, he doesn't want to play QB, so where do you put him?

Now what kind of...football player...is Tom Brady?

There stands Deion Sanders, now how many ways can you use him?

Edited by ZenoRazon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

Jesse Owens ran at a time when we saw very few African Americans in track, so to say he could do this that once that changed,  really can't do it.  Would he have been all that competing against a stiffer level of competition back then?

The bottom like however is all tha really matters is that dominance of era.

This seasons Clemson football team would have destroyed those Lombardi Packer teams, way too big and fast. But....simply doesn't matter.

Owens had world records last for as long as 25 years. I don't know how long it took for the Olympics to fully accept black athletes but Owens was good enough to stand up for quite some time. I am noy trying to take away from 1930s NFL players but if we acknowledge that they would get steamrolled by modern college teams, how can we say they were greatest of all time?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

Let's do this....

Tom Brady shows up for your team, he doesn't want to play QB, so where do you put him?

Now what kind of...football player...is Tom Brady?

There stands Deion Sanders, now how many ways can you use him?

Again, you are talking about who is the most versatile football player. Of course Brady can only play 1 position and Deion could play half a dozen. Is Dede Westbrook better than Brady because Westbrook could play WR, KR, PR, RB, CB or S better than Brady?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

The thread  title is totally right on the money.  The Greatest Football player fits perfectly. 

How can a guy who can't block, tackle, catch, run, be a better "football player" than someone who can?

Tom Brady can't block, can't actually run, can't actually catch, can't tackle, can't do much of anything on a fotball field other than throw a football, how can this be a great football player?

you're alone on an island on this one, my friend.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Owens had world records last for as long as 25 years. I don't know how long it took for the Olympics to fully accept black athletes but Owens was good enough to stand up for quite some time. I am noy trying to take away from 1930s NFL players but if we acknowledge that they would get steamrolled by modern college teams, how can we say they were greatest of all time?

Owens was first and foremost a long jumper, there his 26-8 is STILL a world class leap. But.....his sprinting wouldn't hold up today.

All Time....is about  dominance of era, not about who could play today.

Are those Lombardi Packer teams FAR FAR more revered than this seasons Card team, of course. Why?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, ZenoRazon said:

Owens was first and foremost a long jumper, there his 26-8 is STILL a world class leap. But.....his sprinting wouldn't hold up today.

All Time....is about  dominance of era, not about who could play today.

Are those Lombardi Packer teams FAR FAR more revered than this seasons Card team, of course. Why?

That is fine if you want to crown a 170 pound guy as the greatest football player ever. It's your personal choice. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, joey said:

you're alone on an island on this one, my friend.

 

I was also alone on an island with....

The Jets win this....SBIII

The Chiefs win this...SBIV

Keep an eye on this kid from Western Alabama  Tyreek Hill.

Keep an eye on this kid from Helix HS Reggie Bush.

I like lonely islands,

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By Zeno logic, Tom Brady is actually one of the worst football players in the NFL now outside of kickers. Guys like him, Eli, Rivers. The worst in the league because they can't play RB or DE. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ZenoRazon said:

I was also alone on an island with....

The Jets win this....SBIII

The Chiefs win this...SBIV

Keep an eye on this kid from Western Alabama  Tyreek Hill.

Keep an eye on this kid from Helix HS Reggie Bush.

I like lonely islands,

 

Bush was a 5 star recruit and #1 RB in the country at Helix HS. How was that a lonely island?

  • Laughing 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Ilov80s said:

That is fine if you want to crown a 170 pound guy as the greatest football player ever. It's your personal choice. 

He's in the Hall of Fame, NCAA and NFL.

So I'm not the only one seeing...IT...ok?

The guy did it all, how can that be down played? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

By Zeno logic, Tom Brady is actually one of the worst football players in the NFL now outside of kickers. Guys like him, Eli, Rivers. The worst in the league because they can't play RB or DE. 

 

8 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

By Zeno logic, Tom Brady is actually one of the worst football players in the NFL now outside of kickers. Guys like him, Eli, Rivers. The worst in the league because they can't play RB or DE. 

Zeno logic is this.....

You don't talk QB's if the discussion is Greatest Football Player, they don't belong in that discussion, their job isn't about that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Bush was a 5 star recruit and #1 RB in the country at Helix HS. How was that a lonely island?

Who is the top HS RB in the country right now?  Who here would know without Google?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, jabarony said:

The greatest ever is Barry Sanders.  On this issue there canna be no debate!

Sanders the greatest.....did I really just see that....RB. But not close to being The Greatest Football Player.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ZenoRazon said:

Bill Dudley is the only HOF player who played on every team on a football team. The guy could do it all, everything. He has to be the best football player since there was nothing he couldn't do on a football field.

Jim Thorpe >>>>> Dudley

From his HOF bio: "...there is no question he was superb in every way. He could run with speed as well as bruising power. He could pass and catch passes with the best, punt long distances and kick field goals either by dropkick or placekick... He blocked with authority and, on defense, was a bone-jarring tackler."

He also played MLB and won the Olympic decathlon and pentathlon in 1912.

/thread

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

Jim Thorpe >>>>> Dudley

From his HOF bio: "...there is no question he was superb in every way. He could run with speed as well as bruising power. He could pass and catch passes with the best, punt long distances and kick field goals either by dropkick or placekick... He blocked with authority and, on defense, was a bone-jarring tackler."

He also played MLB and won the Olympic decathlon and pentathlon in 1912.

/thread

Ok, let's compare their NFL stats, go ahead.

But.....you are on the right track now.

Edited by ZenoRazon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

 

Zeno logic is this.....

You don't talk QB's if the discussion is Greatest Football Player, they don't belong in that discussion, their job isn't about that.

Again, seems ridiculous to talk greatest football players ever and remove the most important position. 

7 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

Who is the top HS RB in the country right now?  Who here would know without Google?

I don't know but I bet a lot of people who follow high school football and college recruiting know. He probably has a Youtube video with hundreds of thousands of views. 

12 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

He's in the Hall of Fame, NCAA and NFL.

So I'm not the only one seeing...IT...ok?

The guy did it all, how can that be down played? 

I never said the guy wasn't good. Just saying he isn't the greatest football player in history no matter how well he could block 190 pound linebackers or tackle 175 pound backs.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

this is the boring history class I fell asleep in in high school....

 

This thread is like being a Raiders fan. I wanna stop coming here but I can't make myself do it.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Ilov80s said:

Again, seems ridiculous to talk greatest football players ever and remove the most important position. 

I don't know but I bet a lot of people who follow high school football and college recruiting know. He probably has a Youtube video with hundreds of thousands of views. 

I never said the guy wasn't good. Just saying he isn't the greatest football player in history no matter how well he could block 190 pound linebackers or tackle 175 pound backs.  

Actually it seems ridiculous to talk a guy who can't block, catch, run, kick, tackle as a GREAT football player.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, joey said:

this is the boring history class I fell asleep in in high school....

 

This thread is like being a Raiders fan. I wanna stop coming here but I can't make myself do it.

 

 

So you gave up on trying to make a case for Jim Thorpe vs Bill Dudley?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why is this so hard?

If Brady couldn't throw a football he isn't playing.  He couldn't do anything else, so how can this be....THE GREATEST FOOTBALL PLAYER?

 

Edited by ZenoRazon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

So you gave up on trying to make a case for Jim Thorpe vs Bill Dudley?

You confusing me for another sucker who decided to post in this thread...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gene Mingo was a Denver Broncos.

All he did was.....

rushing...777 yds

receiving....454  yds

passing....200 yds

kick ret...740 yds

punt ret....214 yds

PAT..215 pts

FG...112pts

Now how valuable is a guy like that on any football team? 

Wiki

Eugene L. Mingo (born September 22, 1938) is a former professional American football player from Akron, Ohio, who played several positions including halfback, placekicker, and return specialist. He is widely recognized as the first African American placekicker in American football.

In 1960, he had the first punt return for a touchdown in the American Football League, for the Denver Broncos. That touchdown won the first-ever American Football League game, as the Broncos defeated the Boston Patriots. Mingo also scored the first points in Mile High Stadium, then called Bears Stadium, with an 18-yard field goal. In the 1961 season opener at War Memorial Stadium against the Buffalo Bills, Mingo threw a touchdown pass, from the halfback position, to help the Broncos win 22-10: a 50-yarder to Lionel Taylor in the first quarter. Mingo kicked the PATs after each score. He led the American Football League in scoring as a rookie in 1960 with 123 points and in 1962 with 137 points. Mingo holds the Broncos' franchise record for the longest touchdown run, an 82-yarder against the Raiders in 1962. He also played for the Oakland Raiders, Miami Dolphins, and Washington Redskins. He kicked for the Pittsburgh Steelers in 1969 and 1970.

On September 14, 2014, Mingo, along with Dan Reeves and Rick Upchurch, was inducted into the Broncos Ring of Fame.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is a great football player.

 

 

 

Edited by ZenoRazon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ZenoRazon said:

Let's do this....

Tom Brady shows up for your team, he doesn't want to play QB, so where do you put him?

Now what kind of...football player...is Tom Brady?

There stands Deion Sanders, now how many ways can you use him?

You're mixing athleticism and being the best football player ever.

Just stop.  The only answer is Brady.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Bad_Mo said:

You're mixing athleticism and being the best football player ever.

Just stop.  The only answer is Brady.

And you aren't getting this is about a guy who can play football,   which takes a lot of different skills.  Brady can't do anything other than throw, how does that stack up vs a guy who can throw and do everything else?

What can Brady do for your football team compared to Julian Edelman who was a QB at Kent State.

Edited by ZenoRazon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

And you aren't getting this is about a guy who can play football,   which takes a lot of different skills.  Brady can't do anything other than throw, how does that stack up vs a guy who can throw and do everything else?

What can Brady do for your football team compared to Julian Edelman who was a QB at Kent State.

He play the most important position on my team at a Hall of Fame level. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

He play the most important position on my team at a Hall of Fame level. 

I get all that and he is without question the greatest....QB....of all time.  But he isn't even the best....football player....on the Pats.

Here is a guy in a debate about this...

Conor Orr

Writer | NFL.com

+ Follow On Twitter

Don Hutson was decades ahead of his time -- and a force on both sides of the ball

No. That title belongs to former Packers split end Don Hutson, who led the league in receiving touchdowns in nine of his 11 seasons. Back in 1942, with the passing game still in its infancy, Hutson put up 74 catches for 1,211 yards and 17 touchdowns. He averaged more than 110 yards per game in that season of absolute dominance. In Hutson's time with Green Bay, the Packers won three championships, and he also played defense and was their primary kicker. Hutson had 30 career interceptions, including eight in 1943 -- the same year he posted double-digit touchdowns for the third time.

The eight-time first-team All-Pro was also an important mind in the development of modern NFL routes and passing concepts -- many of which Brady relies on to succeed today.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Notice how he mentions multi talented.

 

Edited by ZenoRazon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Coach...so, you wanna play football, huh?

Tom..yes sir.

Coach...can you kick?

Tom...nope!

Coach...run?

Tom...nay~~~~

Coach...how about....catch?

Tom....nope~

Coach...block?  tackle?

Tom...ah...no and  no.

Coach...ok Tom so what can you do?

Tom...throw.

Coach....a QB then, cool.

Tom...I know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, IHEARTFF said:

The best cloned player teams are probably the elite edge rushers. Would be fun to watch 53 Larry Allen’s vs 53 L.T.s. 

Larry Allen's returning kicks?

Who could beat a team full of Bo Jacksons? 

Edited by ZenoRazon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

Larry Allen's returning kicks?

Who could beat a team full of Bo Jacksons? 

A team full of Saquon Barkleys or Calvin Johnsons was my initial reaction for a cloned team. Size-speed-athletic freaks among a league of freaks. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Ilov80s said:

A team full of Saquon Barkleys or Calvin Johnsons was my initial reaction for a cloned team. Size-speed-athletic freaks among a league of freaks. 

Now you're cooking,  but......neither had the speed to deal with The Jacksons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, ZenoRazon said:

Now you're cooking,  but......neither had the speed to deal with The Jacksons.

Barkley ran 4.40, Calvin ran 4.35. I know Bo had a hand timed 4.13 but I don't really buy that he was that much faster than anyone of the modern era. It's most likely Bo was running in the 4.3 range

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Barkley ran 4.40, Calvin ran 4.35. I know Bo had a hand timed 4.13 but I don't really buy that he was that much faster than anyone of the modern era. It's most likely Bo was running in the 4.3 range

Jackson was a 10.33 100m man,  he ran a 9.5 yards in HS.  He was on a whole other level speed wish and look a how he was built, he could man handle most RB/WR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ZenoRazon said:

Jesse Owens ran at a time when we saw very few African Americans in track, so to say he could do this that once that changed,  really can't do it.  Would he have been all that competing against a stiffer level of competition back then?

Do they play defense in track?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Short Corner said:

Do they play defense in track?

Do we have a TON of track athletes who excell at a multitude of events?

NFL WR Renaldo Nehemiah could...

110hh....one of the best ever

long jump

100

200

run legs on both relays

Could help score 60 points.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 10:11 AM, ZenoRazon said:

How could anything think any QB could be....THE GREATEST FOOTBALL PLAYER....? When all they can do is pass a football?

If that is all you think that a quarterback does then you are hopeless.  Nothing like taking the most important position in the game and oversimplifying it to one single part of the role.  If all it took was passing the football then Ryan Leaf and Jamarcus Russell would be in your conversation.  The quarterback has to know every other single player's role in a play from the blocking assignments to the routes being run, read what the defense is doing, and make spur of the moment decisions based on it.  They are often changing plays at the line of scrimmage based on defensive alignment.  You hold it against someone like Brady based on your own example of him not being able to play a role down in the trenches yet you list nobody on your list that could do those things in the era that Brady is playing in.  Hell, in the 1940's Tom might have been able to bulk up and play defense, who knows?  Can any of the guys you listed other than Baugh play the QB position and do it well at the pro level?  If they could they probably would have done so as there is always a shortage of good QB's in the NFL. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 11:07 AM, ZenoRazon said:

Bill Dudley

He could pass, he could run, he could receive, he played defense so could tackle, he could block, he kicked, he punted, returned kicks.

There he is The Greatest Footbal player ever.

His best season on offense he got a little over 15 touches per game for 65 yards per game.  With that level of dominance he is surely the best player of all time.  Throw in him making 50% of his career field goals and you are totally blowing us away.  Add in a little under two punt returns per game and a touch over one kick return per game and nobody was dominant like this guy.  Maybe I'm overlooking his 81 pass completions or 36.5% of the ones he threw.  Pro football reference doesn't have tackling stats on there so hard to evaluate that angle but I'm sure the numbers are astronomical like his offensive ones.  From what I've seen though, this guy's own mom wouldn't have put him on her list for best football player of all time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ZenoRazon said:

 

Ignore how flawed your premise is, I think I have a great answer:

Cam Newton. Run your tests:

Can he throw? Yes, has a rocket launcher for an arm

Can he run? Yes he’s on off the chart athlete 

Can he tackle and block? He’s 6’5” 258, hes built like a DE so yeah he can hit 

Can he catch? I’m sure and I bet he would be especially good at catching balls in the end zone. 

He really can do it all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You’re starting a football team now and can choose any player of any era as your first pick. You want to WIN FOOTBALL GAMES, hence you want a GREAT FOOTBALL PLAYER, so who are you picking first, Zeno? A jack of all trades? Really?

 

why do I keep torturing myself?!?! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.