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ZenoRazon

Greatest Football Player???

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8 hours ago, ZenoRazon said:

Actually it seems ridiculous to talk a guy who can't block, catch, run, kick, tackle as a GREAT football player.

You've turned the thread into an obtuse joke that you keep telling to yourself.

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So by the 22 clones of a player logic wouldn't Tim Tebow, Cam Newton and Mike Vick be the best modern era QBs?

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7 hours ago, Men-in-Cleats said:

If that is all you think that a quarterback does then you are hopeless.  Nothing like taking the most important position in the game and oversimplifying it to one single part of the role.  If all it took was passing the football then Ryan Leaf and Jamarcus Russell would be in your conversation.  The quarterback has to know every other single player's role in a play from the blocking assignments to the routes being run, read what the defense is doing, and make spur of the moment decisions based on it.  They are often changing plays at the line of scrimmage based on defensive alignment.  You hold it against someone like Brady based on your own example of him not being able to play a role down in the trenches yet you list nobody on your list that could do those things in the era that Brady is playing in.  Hell, in the 1940's Tom might have been able to bulk up and play defense, who knows?  Can any of the guys you listed other than Baugh play the QB position and do it well at the pro level?  If they could they probably would have done so as there is always a shortage of good QB's in the NFL. 

I have a real bad habit of assuming things are obvious. Everybody who follows football gets what a QB is responsible for.  But....it all starts with his ability to throw a football.

If you have seen Bradys combine performance you know he was never going to play another position.  He can't run, lacks quicks and simply isn;t a great athlete. Yes an amazing QB.

Big 290 pound shot putters are in track & field, but just....field.

You are picking sides for backyard football,  you will be one QB your bro the other, what good is Tom Brady going to do you?

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6 hours ago, Men-in-Cleats said:

His best season on offense he got a little over 15 touches per game for 65 yards per game.  With that level of dominance he is surely the best player of all time.  Throw in him making 50% of his career field goals and you are totally blowing us away.  Add in a little under two punt returns per game and a touch over one kick return per game and nobody was dominant like this guy.  Maybe I'm overlooking his 81 pass completions or 36.5% of the ones he threw.  Pro football reference doesn't have tackling stats on there so hard to evaluate that angle but I'm sure the numbers are astronomical like his offensive ones.  From what I've seen though, this guy's own mom wouldn't have put him on her list for best football player of all time. 

Career highlights and awards

2× Pro Bowl (1950, 1951)

4× First-team All-Pro (1942, 1946–1948)*************************************************

2× Second-team All-Pro (1951, 1952)

NFL Most Valuable Player (1946)

2× NFL rushing yards leader (1942, 1946)******************************************

NFL interceptions leader (1946)

NFL 1940s All-Decade Team******************************************

Washington Redskins Ring of Fame

Pittsburgh Steelers Legends team

Maxwell Award (1941)

Consensus All-American (1941)

Career NFL statistics

Rushing yards:3,057

Rushing touchdowns:18

Receiving yards:1,383

Receiving touchdowns:18

Interceptions:23

Field goals:33/66 (50.0%)

Player stats at NFL.com

Pro Football Hall of Fame************************************

College Football Hall of Fame***************************************

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here we have a guy who could everything there is to do on a football field and was among the best in the world at it in his day. Who  else could do that?

 

Edited by ZenoRazon

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6 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

Ignore how flawed your premise is, I think I have a great answer:

Cam Newton. Run your tests:

Can he throw? Yes, has a rocket launcher for an arm

Can he run? Yes he’s on off the chart athlete 

Can he tackle and block? He’s 6’5” 258, hes built like a DE so yeah he can hit 

Can he catch? I’m sure and I bet he would be especially good at catching balls in the end zone. 

He really can do it all.

And that is why he is a better football player than Tom Brady.

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3 hours ago, joey said:

You’re starting a football team now and can choose any player of any era as your first pick. You want to WIN FOOTBALL GAMES, hence you want a GREAT FOOTBALL PLAYER, so who are you picking first, Zeno? A jack of all trades? Really?

 

why do I keep torturing myself?!?! 

Tom Brady

But you really are missing the point.  This has never been about who is the best at a position, it's always been about what player owned a football field in his day.

Bill Dudley never left a football field, think about that.  He played all the special teams, he played three positions on offense, and defense.

Stop torturing yourself and mix a drink,  which always beats straight up.

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2 hours ago, DropKick said:

You've turned the thread into an obtuse joke that you keep telling to yourself.

Talking about guys who can help his team in a multitude of ways vs those who can't, an obtuse joke......really?

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1 hour ago, Niles Standish said:

So by the 22 clones of a player logic wouldn't Tim Tebow, Cam Newton and Mike Vick be the best modern era QBs?

I can't see Vick much of a tackler or blocker. Newton is no warrior. 

 What QB Clones could beat The Tebows...???

Edited by ZenoRazon

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I never met this to be funny, a cartoon or anything other than what really is a football player? We can't go with a Jerry Rice just because he is so far superior to all other WR's he isn't the greatest  "football player"  he is the greatest WR.

In order to get The Greatest Football Player we need a guy who wasn't limited to just a position.  We need someone who can block, tackle, run, throw, kick, catch....that is football.  Well we have that guy in Bullet Bill Dudley.

One of a ton.........

 

There was never a player quite like Dudley before he came and there will surely never be another one. He was the most versatile player in football history, college and pro.

An NFL team today suits up eight men to play the positions Bill played by himself in a single season. He won the only Quadruple Crown in NFL history, leading the league in rushing, punt returns, interceptions, and lateral passes in 1946.

He also won the NFL MVP award in 1946 with the Pittsburgh Steelers, even though he played in the NFL at five-foot 10, 175 pounds. When he arrived for his first training camp with the Steelers in 1942, the stadium guards wouldn't let him through the gate. They didn't believe he was a football player.

After that training camp, he was Rookie of the Year and second in MVP voting, leading the league in rushing.

He was defensive player of the year in 1947.

He is the only player elected Most Valuable Player in college, the pros, and the military. He was a hall of fame inductee, college and pro.

There are 11 ways to score in a football game. Bill scored using 10 of them. He once crawled for a touchdown.

He also played on a Major League Baseball exhibition team while serving in the Pacific during World War II.

All this from an athlete who didn't make his high school football team until his junior year. He didn't play in a game until his senior year.

He was president of the NFL Alumni Association for 12 years during the struggle for pension parity for old-time players who were in the league before 1959.

He introduced the gold jacket into the NFL Hall of Fame induction ceremony.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The World's Greatest Athlete.........is what the winner of the Olympic decathlon will be called.  While he stands no chance vs a Usain Bolt in a 100,or a Omar McLeod in the hurdles. he can do everything while they can't.  So who is The Greatest Trackster.......a decathete.

Who is the best known, famous...Usain Bolt.

 

Edited by ZenoRazon

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Hard to compare different positions, but it's also hard to argue against Brady, if youre going to try, especially if he wins another SB and is a significant part of the victory.....Not like Peyton's 2nd one.......thing is, Brady will have to be money for NE to win, as this Pats team is not stacked.

Edited by Manster

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2 minutes ago, Manster said:

Hard to compare different positions, but it's also hard to argue against Brady, if youre going to try, especially if he wins another SB and is a significant part of the victory.....Not like Peyton's 2nd one.......thing is, Brady will have to be money for NE to win, as this Pats team is not stacked.

If Brady didn't play QB what other position would he have played?

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9 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

If Brady didn't play QB what other position would he have played?

Is quarterback a position in the game of football?

or can we play the game without one?

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45 minutes ago, joey said:

Is quarterback a position in the game of football?

or can we play the game without one?

Of course you can play the game without a QB,  just alternate RB's and go Wildcat.

Army/Navy have a runner at their....QB???....position.

 

Army again won without completing a pass ... this time in double overtime

Remember the single wing?

The Flying Wedge?

There was a time nobody threw the football. 

The Four Horseman just alternated running the ball pretty much.

 

Edited by ZenoRazon

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12 minutes ago, joey said:

Have a nice day. This thread is nuts. 

You asked the question.....can we play the game without a QB....right?   Well, yes we can and have. How many Army/Navy QB's play in the NFL?

Nothing nuts about anything here Joey.

Put Tom Brady in an 8 man back yard game, what happens when his team is on defense?

Hell...

Army West Point does not pass the football very much. Almost never, in fact.

You will pass the ball more playing pickup football with your family on Thanksgiving, and you will likely complete more passes.

This doesn’t faze Army, winner of 10 games in 2017 and the coveted Commander-in-Chief’s Trophy. The Black Knights, who skillfully operate the triple option, ranked dead last nationally in every major passing stat in 2017 -- yards per game (27.8), attempts per game (five) and total passing yards (361).

They don't use a legit QB.......five.....passes a game.

Edited by ZenoRazon

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Think about this...

A six man game of touch football, who wins.

A

Tom Brady

Joe Montana

Peyton Maning

Eli Manning

Jared Goff

Philip Rivers

B

Julian Edelman....QB at Kent St

Danny Amendola

Golden Richards

Cole Beasley

Ryan Switzer

Wes Welker

That's right B and it would get ugly. Why?

Edited by ZenoRazon

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What is the point of arguing the best QB that could block or punt? Or the best lineman that could throw? Or cloning them for a fictional team? I seriously can’t follow any of the line of thinking. 

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19 minutes ago, Elevencents said:

What is the point of arguing the best QB that could block or punt? Or the best lineman that could throw? Or cloning them for a fictional team? I seriously can’t follow any of the line of thinking. 

The line of thinking is this....

In every football game it will take blocking, tackling, passing, running, catching, kicking.  That is the game.

So what athlete came the closest to being able to do all the things we see in a football game? At that HOF level.

Anyone able to do all those things would have to be The Greatest Football player, based  the fact there is nothing on a football field he can't do.

Enter....Bullet Bill Dudley.

Forget the cloning thing, bad idea.

 

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Why is this so damn hard?

Hell,  while in HS Derrick Henry was a grown man vs boys, his HS video is comical,  he could have played both lines, linebacker, WR, TE and at QB just run over everyone, he was OBVIOUSLY the best football player out there.

QB's can't block, can't tackle, can't catch,  few can really run, how can a guy that limited be a great football player? Sure, a great QB, but a football player, surrounded by  guys who  can do far more things than he can....hmmmm?

Hell, Julian Edelman was a QB at Kent State, but.....he can return kicks, pass, catch, run, block....he's a hell of a lot better "football player"  than Tom Brady.

Look at this, it's actually funny.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e2yfWsFk3c

There is no doubt he could have played every position out there.  Hell, he really was a man vs boy

Edited by ZenoRazon

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27 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

New candidat:e: for #1 seed 

Bobby, you could also run, kick. Some think you are still the best QB the Lions ever had, being a HOFer ya know.

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7 hours ago, ZenoRazon said:

I can't see Vick much of a tackler or blocker. Newton is no warrior. 

 What QB Clones could beat The Tebows...???

Newton isn’t a warrior? Guy is tough as nails.

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10 hours ago, DropKick said:

You've turned the thread into an obtuse joke that you keep telling to yourself.

:yes: I see you've met

Edited by Dr. Dan
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On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 9:25 PM, Ack88 said:

Lawrence Taylor.

if you saw him play, you know what I’m talking about.

if you didn’t, you won’t understand.

And, this is coming from a lifelong Cowboys fan.

Yeah, but he was a terrible kicker. Doesn't qualify.

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7 hours ago, ZenoRazon said:

Think about this...

A six man game of touch football, who wins.

A

Tom Brady

Joe Montana

Peyton Maning

Eli Manning

Jared Goff

Philip Rivers

B

Julian Edelman....QB at Kent St

Danny Amendola

Golden Richards

Cole Beasley

Ryan Switzer

Wes Welker

That's right B and it would get ugly. Why?

Don’t know why I keep doing this to myself, but anyway...

 

NO ONE is saying Team A is an example they’d use. How about this team A:

T Brady

A Peterson 

J Rice

Megatron

Lawrence Taylor

Ray Lewis

 

Thats a list of players who were/are considered one of the best at their positions and, I believe, would kill your TeamB. 

Not all of them can play every position but they’re all great and would compliment each so well in the ACTUAL GAME OF FOOTBALL WHERE THERE ARE DIFFERENT POSITIONS AND SKILLS REQUIRED FOR EACH. 

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1 hour ago, joey said:

Don’t know why I keep doing this to myself, but anyway...

 

NO ONE is saying Team A is an example they’d use. How about this team A:

T Brady

A Peterson 

J Rice

Megatron

Lawrence Taylor

Ray Lewis

 

Thats a list of players who were/are considered one of the best at their positions and, I believe, would kill your TeamB. 

Not all of them can play every position but they’re all great and would compliment each so well in the ACTUAL GAME OF FOOTBALL WHERE THERE ARE DIFFERENT POSITIONS AND SKILLS REQUIRED FOR EACH. 

I think my B team beats that team in.....touch......football which is all about quicks. Brady isn't quick and neither is Megatron, Lewis or Taylor compared to a slot receiver, which my guys were/are.

I played in an alumni football game of flags vs Tulare Union.  They had a legendary RB named John Henry Hamilton (got a look by the Rams) he was a big power back.....so what...this was flags and he didn't have much wiggle.

YES.......everybody has different skills.  And when it comes to where they play can be the best.  But when it comes to The Greatest Football Player now you enter into a different relm, now you are looking for that guy who can cover all the bases,he has no limits, he can do everything it takes on a football field at that HOF level.  Enter....Bullet Bill Dudley,

Edited by ZenoRazon

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2 hours ago, Jello_Biafra said:

Yeah, but he was a terrible kicker. Doesn't qualify.

Lawrence Taylor was a beast one of the greatest players ever.  But....he was limited.   There were things he couldn't do like return kicks , a legit receiver, a legit RB, a legit QB.

With Bill Dudley  we have the total package. There is nothing out there he can't do.

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Weighing in very late here. But I gotta thing that ZR is on the right path here.

I think there's probably a zillion different ways to look at the "greatest football player ". I think if you ask a hundred people you'd get 99 definitions. So in an open forum, it's going to be impossible at best to get an agreement on what makes a footballer great let alone who fits one's definition. 

Personally, I like the take 11 of this guy and put him on the field vs 11 of anyone else, who would win? 

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23 minutes ago, simsarge said:

Weighing in very late here. But I gotta thing that ZR is on the right path here.

I think there's probably a zillion different ways to look at the "greatest football player ". I think if you ask a hundred people you'd get 99 definitions. So in an open forum, it's going to be impossible at best to get an agreement on what makes a footballer great let alone who fits one's definition. 

Personally, I like the take 11 of this guy and put him on the field vs 11 of anyone else, who would win? 

Thank you sir, appreciate that.

I know it was funky with the clones thing, yep, weird.  BUT......this is about a football player,  not accomplishments, fame, best WR, best QB etc.  It;s about looking at all the talents it takes to play football and who comes the closest to having all those talents.

Aaron Donald is a monster, he will knock you on your butt, buy what good would he be going down on a kickoff return team, or. returning a punt? The guy is limited while Bullet Bill Dudley isn't.

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1 hour ago, ZenoRazon said:

I think my B team beats that team in.....touch......football which is all about quicks. Brady isn't quick and neither is Megatron, Lewis or Taylor compared to a slot receiver, which my guys were/are.

I played in an alumni football game of flags vs Tulare Union.  They had a legendary RB named John Henry Hamilton (got a look by the Rams) he was a big power back.....so what...this was flags and he didn't have much wiggle.

YES.......everybody has different skills.  And when it comes to where they play can be the best.  But when it comes to The Greatest Football Player now you enter into a different relm, now you are looking for that guy who can cover all the bases,he has no limits, he can do everything it takes on a football field at that HOF level.  Enter....Bullet Bill Dudley,

so now it's the greatest TOUCH football player.

I do understand what YOUR definition of "greatest football player" is, and I know I'm being a pain in the ### on this one. It's just that I think your definition doesn't line up with what most folks (in this thread at least) would think "greatest football player" means.

I am now going to promise to try not to reply in this thread again (though I've failed twice already)

 

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1 minute ago, joey said:

so now it's the greatest TOUCH football player.

I do understand what YOUR definition of "greatest football player" is, and I know I'm being a pain in the ### on this one. It's just that I think your definition doesn't line up with what most folks (in this thread at least) would think "greatest football player" means.

I am now going to promise to try not to reply in this thread again (though I've failed twice already)

 

I learned a long time ago 

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5 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

Thank you sir, appreciate that.

I know it was funky with the clones thing, yep, weird.  BUT......this is about a football player,  not accomplishments, fame, best WR, best QB etc.  It;s about looking at all the talents it takes to play football and who comes the closest to having all those talents.

Aaron Donald is a monster, he will knock you on your butt, buy what good would he be going down on a kickoff return team, or. returning a punt? The guy is limited while Bullet Bill Dudley isn't.

Part of the problem with this line of thinking is though is there's probably a hundred guys in the later day NFL who could do the same thing, but were slotted as DBs or WRs or what not and never had a chance to show that kind of versatility. Mainly because the league is so specialized (long snapper anyone?).

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2 minutes ago, joey said:

so now it's the greatest TOUCH football player.

I do understand what YOUR definition of "greatest football player" is, and I know I'm being a pain in the ### on this one. It's just that I think your definition doesn't line up with what most folks (in this thread at least) would think "greatest football player" means.

I am now going to promise to try not to reply in this thread again (though I've failed twice already)

 

Joey, did ya miss...

Think about this...

A six man game of touch football, who wins.

A

Tom Brady

Joe Montana

Peyton Maning

Eli Manning

Jared Goff

Philip Rivers

I made it clear...TOUCH.

When a guy is on every team ya got, he's kicking, he's blocking, INT/TD/pass/punt return......how can he not be the best player out there?

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5 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

I learned a long time ago 

Dan,  who is The Greatest Football Player in your opinion?

Edited by ZenoRazon

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11 minutes ago, simsarge said:

Part of the problem with this line of thinking is though is there's probably a hundred guys in the later day NFL who could do the same thing, but were slotted as DBs or WRs or what not and never had a chance to show that kind of versatility. Mainly because the league is so specialized (long snapper anyone?).

But, we don't really know who should, would, could, until we get to.....he did, with Bullet Bill Dudley. There is no doubt about his talents because we saw them on display in his HOF NFL career.

Imagine going to a footbal game and seeing some guy out there kicking off, returning kick offs, punting, returning punts, kicking field goals/PATs, passing, catching, blocking, running and then......there he goes on defense....INT~~~~  

That is amazing.

Edited by ZenoRazon

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Come on guys, hell.

You go to your sons Pop Warner game.  Little kid out there kicking, running back kicks, running away from everyone, INT passes, catching and scoring, he throws a few.  He stands out like a sore thumb, he is obviously the best football player out there.

Imagine any NFLer in his HS days, totally stand out.

This cannot be this complex.

Virgil Green the NFL TE played at nearby Tulare Union HS, watching him out there vs those kids was comical, actually looked weird.

 

 

Edited by ZenoRazon

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Now the conversation is really about who is the best 2 HAND TOUCH football player ever? hahaha

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26 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Now the conversation is really about who is the best 2 HAND TOUCH football player ever? hahaha

Are you kidding me guy?

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I give, the hell with it.

Yep, Tom Brady THE GREATEST FOOOTBALL PLAYER OF ALL TIME.

Shine the fact he can't run, catch, block, kick, tackle, return anything.  He sure can throw.

Sorry Bullet Bill, I tried. I know, I know you can do it all but..........NOBODY CARES.

Edited by ZenoRazon

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1 hour ago, ZenoRazon said:

I give, the hell with it.

Yep, Tom Brady THE GREATEST FOOOTBALL PLAYER OF ALL TIME.

Shine the fact he can't run, catch, block, kick, tackle, return anything.  He sure can throw.

Sorry Bullet Bill, I tried. I know, I know you can do it all but..........NOBODY CARES.

Finally. 

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18 hours ago, ZenoRazon said:

Think about this...

A six man game of touch football, who wins.

A

Tom Brady

Joe Montana

Peyton Maning

Eli Manning

Jared Goff

Philip Rivers

B

Julian Edelman....QB at Kent St

Danny Amendola

Golden Richards

Cole Beasley

Ryan Switzer

Wes Welker

That's right B and it would get ugly. Why?

No Rooney Rule in touch football I guess.

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2 hours ago, joeschmo said:

No Rooney Rule in touch football I guess.

Also he said Cam Newton wasn’t tough enough to compete with Tebow LOL

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Some of my favorite football players of all time were Pele, Diego Maradona and Zinedine Zidane.

American Football?  I'll go with my favorite school yard team of me, Tom Brady, Jerry Rice, Jim Brown, Lawrence Taylor, and Joe Greene. I know we're gonna put up points but I still wanted LT and Mean Joe on the defensive side of the ball.  I'm gonna QB... at least on the gimmick plays that coach Payton (Sean) sends in.

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