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Late term abortions (1 Viewer)

timschochet

Footballguy
Very much in the news with Virginia Governor Northam’s comments, President Trump’s response, public reaction, etc:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/politics/va-gov-faces-backlash-for-comments-on-controversial-third-trimester-abortion-bill.amp

This is obviously a very touchy issue. Interested to learn what people think. Obviously if you believe that abortion is murder in general you’re not going to believe that a late term abortion is acceptable. But if you’re a pro-choice person, so late term abortions trouble you? Are you willing to let women and doctors make this decision or should there be laws that prohibit it? 

 
Personally I have always believed that if a pregnancy results in hydrocephalus, or something like that that would result in a brain dead baby, there is no reason that a late term abortion shouldn’t be permitted. Especially if the birth would harm the health of the mother or possibly risk her ability to have more children. My understanding is that most late term abortions involve something like this, though there may be exceptions. 

 
I'm pro-choice but some of the stuff I'm hearing the last couple of days is really disturbing. Reviving the baby after birth and letting the parents decide what to do then? wtf? The decision can be made due to the mother's mental health, not just physical health?

 
I'm pro-choice but some of the stuff I'm hearing the last couple of days is really disturbing. Reviving the baby after birth and letting the parents decide what to do then? wtf? The decision can be made due to the mother's mental health, not just physical health?
Your first quote comes directly from Northam and yes it is disturbing- I’d certainly like him to clarify. I will add however that the reaction is also disturbing- calling him evil. (Jim DeMint and others). That type of rhetoric is just wrong, and has led in the past to murders of doctors. 

Unsure about the second quote. Who said that? 

 
Personally I have always believed that if a pregnancy results in hydrocephalus, or something like that that would result in a brain dead baby, there is no reason that a late term abortion shouldn’t be permitted. Especially if the birth would harm the health of the mother or possibly risk her ability to have more children. My understanding is that most late term abortions involve something like this, though there may be exceptions. 
The problem with your theory is that using extreme medical scenarios is often done  to justify the pro-choice position.  But the reality on the ground becomes people killing their unborn child for no good reason.

 
The problem with your theory is that using extreme medical scenarios is often done  to justify the pro-choice position.  But the reality on the ground becomes people killing their unborn child for no good reason.
You’re pro-life, correct? Your use of the phrase “unborn child” certainly indicates that. 

I’m not sure we can discuss what a “good reason” for an abortion would be. Is there a “good reason” that you’re willing to accept? 

 
Your first quote comes directly from Northam and yes it is disturbing- I’d certainly like him to clarify. I will add however that the reaction is also disturbing- calling him evil. (Jim DeMint and others). That type of rhetoric is just wrong, and has led in the past to murders of doctors. 

Unsure about the second quote. Who said that? 
I would call the actions he spoke of evil. That’s not rhetoric, that’s reality.  It’s ok to say that without worrying that some lunatic might go murder doctors. It’s also ironic that you’re concerned about that when the abortion doctors are murdering children....

 
You’re pro-life, correct? Your use of the phrase “unborn child” certainly indicates that. 

I’m not sure we can discuss what a “good reason” for an abortion would be. Is there a “good reason” that you’re willing to accept? 
That’s literally what it is.  An unborn child.  Especially this is the case when it’s in the final trimester and could survive on it’s own.

Anyone that has an issue with that phrase is just using different words to make themselves feel better.  

No, I don’t think abortion is acceptable and those that do it are guilty of murder as is the doctor carrying it out. 

This forum is full of people making bold moral judgments about politicians, race, bigotry and other important issues.  It’s full of people casting judgment on others because of their political affiliations.

So I don’t mind calling abortion murder. It’s one of the worst moral issues of the current age. Far more serious than many of the petty things people get outraged about these days.

 
That’s literally what it is.  An unborn child.  Especially this is the case when it’s in the final trimester and could survive on it’s own.

Anyone that has an issue with that phrase is just using different words to make themselves feel better.  

No, I don’t think abortion is acceptable and those that do it are guilty of murder as is the doctor carrying it out. 

This forum is full of people making bold moral judgments about politicians, race, bigotry and other important issues.  It’s full of people casting judgment on others because of their political affiliations.

So I don’t mind calling abortion murder. It’s one of the worst moral issues of the current age. Far more serious than many of the petty things people get outraged about these days.
I like you Shader and I do respect your opinion here. But again, if you believe that ALL abortion is murder then your opinion on late term abortion is IMO irrelevant. And as I noted, we begin with a different premise so I don’t know what good will come from a further discussion with you on this subject. 

But I do want to point out one small contradiction in your statement: you used the word “especially” to describe late term abortions. If you believe that abortion is murder then there should be no “especially”- no distinction between a 1st term abortion, 3rd term abortion, or infanticide after birth, right? 

 
Personally I have always believed that if a pregnancy results in hydrocephalus, or something like that that would result in a brain dead baby, there is no reason that a late term abortion shouldn’t be permitted. Especially if the birth would harm the health of the mother or possibly risk her ability to have more children. My understanding is that most late term abortions involve something like this, though there may be exceptions. 
Do you have any reliable statistics on this?  I've heard conflicting info over the years.  I agree with you that a woman carrying a fetus with hydrocephalus should be legally allowed to terminate the pregnancy at any time.  I don't know what percentage of late-stage abortions involve that sort of situation, it seems very relevant.

 
I like you Shader and I do respect your opinion here. But again, if you believe that ALL abortion is murder then your opinion on late term abortion is IMO irrelevant. And as I noted, we begin with a different premise so I don’t know what good will come from a further discussion with you on this subject. 

But I do want to point out one small contradiction in your statement: you used the word “especially” to describe late term abortions. If you believe that abortion is murder then there should be no “especially”- no distinction between a 1st term abortion, 3rd term abortion, or infanticide after birth, right? 
There’s no “especially” to me. But the viability excuse is often used which is why I pointed that out.

As I wrote, it’s a very touchy issue. As Shader correctly pointed out, people have strong views related to morality. So long as everyone stays respectful I don’t see anything wrong with stating those views. 
My stay in this thread will be short.  My point is quickly made and I’ll move on.

If someone started a thread on the positive reasons  why a wall should be built between Mexico and the US, I expect that opinion would be met with all manner of outrage and moral judgments.  So I’ll do the same here, though I’ll try to keep from attacking anyone in here personally.  The best way for me to do that is to state my position and move on.  

 
Do you have any reliable statistics on this?  I've heard conflicting info over the years.  I agree with you that a woman carrying a fetus with hydrocephalus should be legally allowed to terminate the pregnancy at any time.  I don't know what percentage of late-stage abortions involve that sort of situation, it seems very relevant.
No. I’d like to have some. I based my comments on having heard doctors make this claim. But I don’t have statistics. 

I do admit that when reading about this issue, the fact that one side is represented largely by medical experts and the other side by religious figures, moralists, amd politicians, definitely has an impact on my thinking. 

 
There’s no “especially” to me. But the viability excuse is often used which is why I pointed that out.

My stay in this thread will be short.  My point is quickly made and I’ll move on.

If someone started a thread on the positive reasons  why a wall should be built between Mexico and the US, I expect that opinion would be met with all manner of outrage and moral judgments.  So I’ll do the same here, though I’ll try to keep from attacking anyone in here personally.  The best way for me to do that is to state my position and move on.  
I don’t want you to leave the thread because of anything I wrote. 

 
No. I’d like to have some. I based my comments on having heard doctors make this claim. But I don’t have statistics. 

I do admit that when reading about this issue, the fact that one side is represented largely by medical experts and the other side by religious figures, moralists, amd politicians, definitely has an impact on my thinking. 
I was able to find some statistics here: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/reason.com/blog/2016/10/21/late-term-abortions-in-america-2016/amp

It states that only 1.2% of abortions take place after 21 weeks. The percentage of abortions within the last trimester are likely to be much smaller. 

It also states that almost all abortions at the end of the pregnancy are due to life threatening reasons as I suspected. But it doesn’t give any numbers for this, they are hard to find, so I don’t know if this is fact or assumption. 

 
As I wrote, it’s a very touchy issue. As Shader correctly pointed out, people have strong views related to morality. So long as everyone stays respectful I don’t see anything wrong with stating those views. 
I don’t disagree, but we immediately got off topic.  Hell, I’m not even sure I can articulate my position well.  I don’t  know enough science.  I think most of us are that way.  

If tomorrow someone comes out and says any fetus can magically be transferred to a surrogate womb with no (physical) impact to the mother would they change their mind in things?  

But, to address the purpose of the thread, it seems to me that any non-medical reason for a late-term abortion is morally sketchy.  But people do morally sketchy things all the time.  I tend to lean towards banning it as there has to be a point where the fetus/child’s rights have to start.  Again, with science I think where that starts can shift.  And I understand for some that is at birth - it’s just tough for people to accept that given what science can do.

 
I read a long article about George Tiller  after his murder that might have been posted in the FFA at that time.  It changed my mind from thinking I was against late term abortions to thinking that George Tiller and others like him are heroes.  I'd very much like to read it again but I can't seem to find it.

Edit:  I think it was this article but I'll have to read it again when I have time:  https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/us/26tiller.html

 
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As I wrote, it’s a very touchy issue. As Shader correctly pointed out, people have strong views related to morality. So long as everyone stays respectful I don’t see anything wrong with stating those views. 
You just told him his opinion is irrelevant and then say as long as everyone stays respectful.  Might wanna go get some fresh air and figure out which way you want this thread to go.

 
Trump just now: “Democrats have become the party of late term abortions” 
Yep, he is going to knock this one out of the park in his SOTU address.  He'll put it on dems in the chamber and address them directly, making them own it, and it will be a talking point for the next two years.

Full disclosure, I am pro-choice, but I'd be lying if I said I don't find my position morally challenged and very difficult to quantify adequately.  

 
I read a long article about George Tiller  after his murder that might have been posted in the FFA at that time.  It changed my mind from thinking I was against late term abortions to thinking that George Tiller and others like him are heroes.  I'd very much like to read it again but I can't seem to find it.

Edit:  I think it was this article but I'll have to read it again when I have time:  https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/us/26tiller.html
This is why my gut reaction is to immediately say this needs to be two sepearate discussions - Late term for medical reasons and late term for any other reason.  Conflating the two seems to be one of the key reasons that the debate devolves.

 
That’s literally what it is.  An unborn child.  Especially this is the case when it’s in the final trimester and could survive on it’s own.

Anyone that has an issue with that phrase is just using different words to make themselves feel better.  

No, I don’t think abortion is acceptable and those that do it are guilty of murder as is the doctor carrying it out. 

This forum is full of people making bold moral judgments about politicians, race, bigotry and other important issues.  It’s full of people casting judgment on others because of their political affiliations.

So I don’t mind calling abortion murder. It’s one of the worst moral issues of the current age. Far more serious than many of the petty things people get outraged about these days.
I actually don't have an issue with you referring to it as murder. I completely disagree with it, but I have no issues with you saying it and I at least understand why you would call it that. This is one of those topics that Americans often avoid discussing, mostly because we aren't capable of it.

That video jamny posted is a perfect example. There were certain questions that woman just did not want to answer, when she should have known they were coming and just answer them freely. If it is in the bill, just answer. 

I do often find the GOP stance on abortion to be very perplexing considering their views on welfare, health care, etc, but that doesn't make their views wrong if taken individually. 

I find the thought of a woman going to the doctor a few weeks before giving birth and convincing a doctor to allow an abortion because of her mental state troubling, but I also think the idea of a child being born to a woman that might drown him/her in the bathtub pretty troubling as well. I heard a commercial on sports radio a couple weeks ago promoting US adoptions. Yes, they were basically pleading(obviously they had some spin to this but intent was obvious) with people to stop adopting little asian babies and please adopt domestically. The fact that they are doing that shows we have a lot of unwanted babies being born here that are not in good situations. 

To me being pro choice is because I support a woman's right to decide whether or not she wants to give birth. I don't view the child as a solo entity until it is a solo entity. So I understand the arguments that there are times when the baby could survive on its own, but I also view giving birth a significant enough event to overrule that. I dismiss arguments that say some late term abortions are almost the same as giving birth. Emotionally I think they are different, but I also cant say that for certain since I have obviously never done it and never will. I simply cant imagine what it would be like to give birth and then give the baby up for adoption.

And for the record I don't simply condone using abortions as birth control. I wish more people shared my views on sex. I waited to have sex until I was 24 (Was definitely not due to lack of opportunity. Girls in college are just as bad as the stereotypical movie d bag guy, maybe worse when they learn you haven't had sex). I waited until I had a good income, money in the bank and my own health insurance. I was always scared of getting a girl pregnant and not being able to properly raise a kid. Funny thing is my son was born when I was 25, lol. It was absolutely not a moral thing as far as sanctity of marriage, sex, etc. After all as a freshman in high school I can remember sitting in a bean bag chair with a basket of ping pong balls at my side and a paddle in my hand hitting a ball against the upright side of the ping pong table while my girlfriend was doing some stuff. The ping pong charade was because her parents were upstairs milling about. 

What was the topic again? 

 
You just told him his opinion is irrelevant and then say as long as everyone stays respectful.  Might wanna go get some fresh air and figure out which way you want this thread to go.
No you misunderstood. What I wrote is that if you are against ALL abortions, then your specific opinion about late term abortions is going to be irrelevant. That’s simple logic, isn’t it? 

 
This is why my gut reaction is to immediately say this needs to be two sepearate discussions - Late term for medical reasons and late term for any other reason.  Conflating the two seems to be one of the key reasons that the debate devolves.
Oh, Tiller did them for more than just medical reasons.  From the article:

Dr. Tiller’s clinic Web site boasted that he had more experience with late-term abortions “than anyone else currently practicing in the Western Hemisphere.” Since 1998, interviews and state statistics show, his clinic performed about 4,800 late-term abortions, at least 22 weeks into gestation, around the earliest point at which a fetus can survive outside the womb. At 22 weeks, the average fetus is 11 inches long, weighs a pound and is starting to respond to noise.

About 2,000 of these abortions involved fetuses that could not have survived outside the womb, either because they had catastrophic genetic defects or they were simply too small.

But the other 2,800 abortions involved viable fetuses. Some had serious but survivable abnormalities, like Down syndrome. Many were perfectly healthy.

Like many states, Kansas has long placed limits on late-term abortions of viable fetuses. They can be done only to save the woman’s life or because continuing the pregnancy would cause her a “substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function,” a phrase that Kansas legal authorities, citing United States Supreme Court cases, have said encompasses the woman’s physical and mental health. The state also requires the approval of a second Kansas physician “not legally or financially affiliated” with the doctor performing the abortion.

Even so, Kansas law gives considerable deference to physicians’ judgments. Dr. Tiller and his staff said they had a rigorous screening process to comply with the law.

The vast majority of women seeking late-term abortions from Dr. Tiller’s clinic were from other states, records and testimony show. Dozens more came each year from Canada and other countries. Many were referred by their obstetrician. Law enforcement officials sometimes gave Dr. Tiller’s name to victims of rape or incest.

Prospective patients were required to submit a battery of medical records. They were asked whether they had considered adoption. Before meeting Dr. Tiller, women were interviewed by at least two clinic counselors. Many of the questions — about appetite, sleep habits, thoughts of suicide — were intended to detect symptoms of severe mental illness. Patients were also examined by a second physician, as required by law.

According to sworn testimony by his staff, hundreds of women were turned away each year because they did not meet the legal requirements for a late-term abortion.

 
Yep, he is going to knock this one out of the park in his SOTU address.  He'll put it on dems in the chamber and address them directly, making them own it, and it will be a talking point for the next two years.

Full disclosure, I am pro-choice, but I'd be lying if I said I don't find my position morally challenged and very difficult to quantify adequately.  
Oh Im sure he will push that...but knock it out of the park?  Im doubting it if his tweets are any indication.  It will be fact checked immediately and there is no way he goes through it without lying quite a bit IMO.

Im with you on your disclosure.  I almost started this thread yesterday but decided against it as I had not read enough about the current laws that are out there and the current conversation.  Have done a bit more now and it is obvious Trump will push this and the facts be damned as he does so.

My own stance...I abhor abortion...I hate that its even a thing.  Im happy I was never in a position with a woman where there was ever a choice needed, but it would have been very hard to ever be a part of ending what would be a life.  And even with all of that said, I veer from my Catholic faith in that I am pro-choice from the standpoint that I don't believe the government should be making that call.  Now, as with many things, its more complex than even that and there should be restrictions on late term (with exceptions that are being put out there now about viability of the fetus and extreme cases of health of the mother).  Where we get into issues is what are we considering health of the mother and how many will take advantage of that.

 
Thank you. I was not in any way trying to be disrespectful to Shader, and I think Shader gets that, even if Rambling Wreck and Cowboyfan apparently do not. 
I realize we are on separate ides of this issue but you know I have always enjoyed debating/discussing things with you.  I would probably become disrespectful if I stayed in this thread much longer.  This will get turned into a political issue by Trump because he spots an opening to gain back some republicans that he lost.  

I just get mad because for me, outside of the politics that don't interest me, I think abortion is atrocious. We'll leave it at that and chat soon on another matter.

 
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I am pro-choice. 100%. No restrictions for any reason. Anything else amounts to forcing a woman to give birth against her will.
This has always been close to my position legally. But morally I would have a problem with late term abortions if they were performed for reasons other than emergency or the physical  health of the mother. 

For instance, in the article on Tiller just posted, it said that women who were the victims of rape and incest had been among his patients. I can see why a raped woman, or a victim of incest, would want to get an abortion. But why wait until the last trimester to do so? That makes no sense to me, honestly. 

 
The problem with your theory is that using extreme medical scenarios is often done  to justify the pro-choice position.  But the reality on the ground becomes people killing their unborn child for no good reason.
And the problem with this response becomes the “pro-life side” ignoring the real situations where an abortion is necessary & they make absolute statements like “those that have an abortion are guilty of murder.”  There’s no logic: it’s all-or-nothing.

My wife’s aunt had a very difficult time getting pregnant, and when she finally did, about 4 months in, she was told her unborn daughter had a disease (mermaids syndrome, or something), tha5nwas very likely to be fatal.  In addition, there were some other complications where her life was at risk, too.  She desperately wanted to have a child, but ultimately decided to have the abortion, because of the danger to her life & the very sad prognosis of infant death, or a very painful life for her child.

Is she a murderer?

 
I know a lot of people where this issue is the only thing keeping them voting Republican, and it's the only issue that has me contemplating it.

 
Now with the start of this topic (the NY law is the one that first had me about to discuss)...I think the comments were pretty awful.

Determining to "abort" after the child has been delivered, "kept comfortable" and/or resuscitated is pretty damn awful.

Im also not very comforatable with the non-doctor part of the NY law.

 
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Sigh. (Godfather 3: "I think I'm out, but they pull me back in).   I really just want to make one comment as I don't want this consume my day.  This isn't my first rodeo in the FFA. 

I hate Trump.  I hate what the Republican party stands for today.  All the corruption, all the enabling, all the xenophobia, all the horrendous awfulness of what they are responsible for down by the border, etc, etc, etc.  I have stated I can't for-see me voting Republican again.  I am 100% sure I'm voting for whomever the Dems put up in the 2020.

But goddamit, if there was anything that gives me tremendous pause with the Dems...its "But do I really want to vote FOR this!?"  The Virginia governor words on this issue, the casualness....the celebration when New York passed their recent law.  Sigh x2.  It was literally ghoulish.

Throw some of us a bone Dems.  Admit some of us who really really like and appreciate your usual stance to help the little guy, the disadvantaged, the ones without a voice could possibly extend to the most helpless and voiceless of all. ####, anymore I'd 100% appreciate the Clinton slogan of "safe, legal, and rare."  Because then at least you'd acknowledge it can be morally tricky.  That there is a grey area.  That its not an ideal.  Not #shoutyourabortion.  Listening to the Va. governor...  Jesus.   I want to fully go Dem as I agree with so much of them right now.  This is such a deep issue though that those quotes and the casualness of it all never enables me to feel home there.  Sigh sigh sighhh.

Note to self:  "I'm not getting pulled back in, I'm not deep-sixing half my day..."

 
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I know a lot of people where this issue is the only thing keeping them voting Republican, and it's the only issue that has me contemplating it.
I do, as well.  During the last SC debacle, both of my sisters went on FB (I hate social media) to disclose that each of them had been raped, by men they knew.  Alcohol was involved in both situations.  My uncle, who is a good person, replied to their posts that if girls went to a party and got drunk & a guy got frisky (not his exact words) with that girl, that wasn’t a big deal & besides, if Kavanaugh could change the abortion laws in the country, it would be worth it.  This was in response to finding out his two nieces had been raped, in much the same way as Kavanaughs accuser described him attacking her.

Yeah, abortion seems to be THE only thing for some people, politically speaking, that matters.

 
Oh Im sure he will push that...but knock it out of the park?  Im doubting it if his tweets are any indication.  It will be fact checked immediately and there is no way he goes through it without lying quite a bit IMO.

Im with you on your disclosure.  I almost started this thread yesterday but decided against it as I had not read enough about the current laws that are out there and the current conversation.  Have done a bit more now and it is obvious Trump will push this and the facts be damned as he does so.

My own stance...I abhor abortion...I hate that its even a thing.  Im happy I was never in a position with a woman where there was ever a choice needed, but it would have been very hard to ever be a part of ending what would be a life.  And even with all of that said, I veer from my Catholic faith in that I am pro-choice from the standpoint that I don't believe the government should be making that call.  Now, as with many things, its more complex than even that and there should be restrictions on late term (with exceptions that are being put out there now about viability of the fetus and extreme cases of health of the mother).  Where we get into issues is what are we considering health of the mother and how many will take advantage of that.
To be clear I don’t think he needs to stretch the truth or lie.  Simply stated that dems support abortion up to the day before birth.  Make them own it.  Easy.

 
I do want to discuss the politics of this issue because it’s important by itself. 

It seems to me that almost all politics in modern times is based on one general principle: in order to win, you need to paint your opponent as extreme. And we see this again and again. Liberals are not just opposed to a war, they are unpatriotic. Conservatives are not just opposed to certain laws, they are racists. Liberals are not just opposed to a wall on the border, they are for open borders and anarchy. Conservatives are not just opposed to illegal immigrants, they hate Latinos. And so on and so on. Everybody does this including me. The vast majority on all sides are pretty reasonable and usually have moderate positions, but they believe that the other side is extreme. That is how we roll. 

So on the issue of abortion, those opposed reacted to Roe initially by labeling it murder and hoping public opinion would agree with them. When that changed over time, and it was found that a majority of Americans favored legalized abortion, that’s when late term abortion became an issue. Because no matter how rare it is,  it allows opponents of abortion to label those in favor of it as extremists. 

 

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