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timschochet

Late term abortions

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2 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

I posted it earlier that they were kidnapped.  If it makes a difference, give multiple answers. If they got drunk and woke up that way and can't remember, or if they got drunk and said "I'll lay down next to him as long as you promise you won't take the caps off of the needles to those tubes", or if they were kidnapped, or if they said "as long as you promise to take precautions so that I won't have to be tied in for nine months."  Whatever.

Yeah Adonis beat me to it, but I'd have to think the events leading up to your scenario matter. When applied to the topic at hand, they add nuance to a discussion that is not so black-and-white. 

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1 minute ago, whiskey7 said:

That is kind of what I was wondering. In Henry's example, the "kidnapping victim" is in cahoots with the kidnapper, isn't she? I mean, with the obvious exception of woman who are forced, every woman who willingly engages in sex knows (or damn well should) that pregnancy is a possible outcome. I get the point of what he's saying but I guess I struggle with her being labeled a victim taken against her will. To me, that absolves her of her accountability.

Why on earth do you people keep taking rape out of the equation?  Is this some weird view that I'm not aware of?  That we don't have to consider cases of rape when we're dealing with abortion laws?

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1 minute ago, pepwaves said:

Yeah Adonis beat me to it, but I'd have to think the events leading up to your scenario matter. When applied to the topic at hand, they add nuance to a discussion that is not so black-and-white. 

I think you guys have a really inflated understanding of the chances of slipping one past the goalie at any given moment even without protection.

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3 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

That can cause pregnancy.  That's not the same thing as will cause pregnancy.  Also, the number of times men say they'll use a condom and don't or birth control fails, or lots of other things happen are relevant.  

Also, rape and incest are responsible for more abortions than late-term abortions are.  So can we take those out of the equation when discussing abortion?  It's so small a number they don't matter?

I never said any circumstances “don’t matter”. I said that your analogy fails with the overwhelming majority of abortions that occur.

Pregnancy is a direct result of sex.  This isn’t rocket science (but it is real science). If you engage in the activity like an adult, you take responsibility for the potential consequences.

 

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Since this thread started about Northam, oh my.  I might be getting a new governor.  No idea how that did not come out during the campaign.

ETA: Started a separate thread.

Edited by Don Quixote
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10 minutes ago, shader said:

 

If we take rape out of the equation, (likely an extremely small number of the overall abortions), your analogy fails becused no one just “wakes up” to a baby.  They knowingly engage in activities that cause pregnancy.  

If a woman is not actively ovulating there is a 5% chance of pregnancy.  If she's actively ovulating there's a 25% chance of pregnancy. 

With zero contraception.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20120313-sex-in-the-city-or-elsewhere

http://www.demographic-research.org/Volumes/Vol3/5/default.htm

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4 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

I think you guys have a really inflated understanding of the chances of slipping one past the goalie at any given moment even without protection.

And yet somehow the human race survives 

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29 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Again, if you wake up with your circulatory system tied into a famous violinist and he will die if you disconnect yourself but will live if you stay hooked into him for nine months, are you obligated to lay there for nine months?

Do you bear any responsibility for him being attached to you? 

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Just now, shader said:

And yet somehow the human race survives 

Yeah.  The unrelenting urge to bone.  Which is basically never going to stop.  So maybe "well they knew better than to bone!" isn't a very effective argument.

 

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Just now, unckeyherb said:

Do you bear any responsibility for him being attached to you? 

As in did anyone tell you that there was a 5% chance that you might wake up with a violinist?  Even though 50% of violinist appearances end in miscarriage of circulatory connection?

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8 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

That can cause pregnancy.  That's not the same thing as will cause pregnancy.  Also, the number of times men say they'll use a condom and don't or birth control fails, or lots of other things happen are relevant.  

Also, rape and incest are responsible for more abortions than late-term abortions are.  So can we take those out of the equation when discussing abortion?  It's so small a number they don't matter?

They matter, of course.  But they aren't the only examples that matter, right?

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Just now, Henry Ford said:

If a woman is not actively ovulating there is a 5% chance of pregnancy.  If she's actively ovulating there's a 25% chance of pregnancy. 

With zero contraception.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20120313-sex-in-the-city-or-elsewhere

http://www.demographic-research.org/Volumes/Vol3/5/default.htm

So if someone had a 14 year old daughter that came home pregnant, “it’s not your fault, you were just unlucky” might be a good parenting move?

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Sure.  That's fine.  Let's say there's a one in 20 chance that the violinist scenario happens every time you have sex.  And that it's really one in 40 chance it doesn't end in a failure of the circulatory issue, and there are precautions you can take but they aren't 100% effective.

Is the argument that you should be celebate or you have to remain tied to a violinist?

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Just now, Henry Ford said:

As in did anyone tell you that there was a 5% chance that you might wake up with a violinist?  Even though 50% of violinist appearances end in miscarriage of circulatory connection?

As in if you go to this concert with billy you have a 1 in 4 chance of coming home with a violinst attached to your circulatory system.

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1 minute ago, shader said:

So if someone had a 14 year old daughter that came home pregnant, “it’s not your fault, you were just unlucky” might be a good parenting move?

I don't know.  Have you asked her if she was raped, or is that out of that discussion, too?

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Just now, unckeyherb said:

As in if you go to this concert with billy you have a 1 in 4 chance of coming home with a violinst attached to your circulatory system.

Think your math may be a touch off on that one.

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Just now, Henry Ford said:

Sure.  That's fine.  Let's say there's a one in 20 chance that the violinist scenario happens every time you have sex.  And that it's really one in 40 chance it doesn't end in a failure of the circulatory issue, and there are precautions you can take but they aren't 100% effective.

Is the argument that you should be celebate or you have to remain tied to a violinist?

That's not my argument, but that is an argument.  Yes.

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Just now, Henry Ford said:

Think your math may be a touch off on that one.

Quote

If she's actively ovulating there's a 25% chance of pregnancy. 

 

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14 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

I think you guys have a really inflated understanding of the chances of slipping one past the goalie at any given moment even without protection.

"You guys"? Who are you calling "you guys"?! 😉

In all seriousness, I definitely understand the chances. My wife and I really struggled to "slip one past the goalie" so to speak.

Suppose in your scenario, a person has been told all their life that every time they eat a cheeseburger, there is a chance (albeit an extremely small chance) that someday they might find themselves tied down in a bed with a famous violinist hooked to their circulatory system for 9 months. Would this change how you think about this situation the person was "forced" into? I mean, I know cheeseburgers are good...and dammit Red Cow burgers in the Cities are especially hard to say "no" to. But, if I knew I might be tied down for 9 months with someone else hooked to my circulatory system, I might think twice about eating that delicious cheeseburger.

I probably should not have entered this discussion without a preface lest you loop me into a category with these other "guys". But, maybe I'll let you do that anyway since I should be working right now....ha. 

Edited by pepwaves

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Just now, unckeyherb said:

That's not my argument, but that is an argument.  Yes.

Sure is.  I'm unpersuaded by it.

Much as I don't think indentured servitude should be legal, even though by definition someone agrees to it.

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Just now, Henry Ford said:

I don't know.  Have you asked her if she was raped, or is that out of that discussion, too?

Can we stipulate that rape, any rape is a reason for abortion, end of discussion and move past saying "what about rape victims?" every time someone posts?

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Just now, unckeyherb said:

 

So now the assumption is not just that she wasn't raped, but that she's ovulating and the "50% end in miscarriages" reality isn't in effect?

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1 minute ago, Henry Ford said:

Sure.  That's fine.  Let's say there's a one in 20 chance that the violinist scenario happens every time you have sex.  And that it's really one in 40 chance it doesn't end in a failure of the circulatory issue, and there are precautions you can take but they aren't 100% effective.

Is the argument that you should be celebate or you have to remain tied to a violinist?

STD’s are a good example.  If you engage in unprotected sex with a ton of different people, you may get an STD. At that point there’s nothing you can do aside from treating your disease.  There’s no magic abortion pill.  

It’s not a crappy roll of the dice when you get aids from sex.  It’s a result of you having sex with someone with aids.

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Just now, Henry Ford said:

So now the assumption is not just that she wasn't raped, but that she's ovulating and the "50% end in miscarriages" reality isn't in effect?

I don't know man.  It's your hypothetical violinist human centipede thing.  You tell me what your parameters are for this and we'll just agree to disagree I guess.

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10 minutes ago, unckeyherb said:

Can we stipulate that rape, any rape is a reason for abortion, end of discussion and move past saying "what about rape victims?" every time someone posts?

Sure.  Then there's no point in any laws criminalizing abortion.  Guess that ends that.

Edited by Henry Ford

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4 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

I don't know.  Have you asked her if she was raped, or is that out of that discussion, too?

You’re using rape when it suits you to make your point, even though it’s a very low percentage of abortions. I personally am not in favor of abortions for rape victims, but I bet many politicalguys would be ok with separating the two.

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Just now, Henry Ford said:

Sure.  Then there's no point in any laws.  Guess that ends that.

I'm not sure how you got there.  

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3 minutes ago, unckeyherb said:

Can we stipulate that rape, any rape is a reason for abortion, end of discussion and move past saying "what about rape victims?" every time someone posts?

But rape and the danger of the mothers life are the two “go-to” arguments that are commonly used.  Without them, the whole thing COMPLETELY falls apart morally.

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1 minute ago, shader said:

STD’s are a good example.  If you engage in unprotected sex with a ton of different people, you may get an STD. At that point there’s nothing you can do aside from treating your disease.  There’s no magic abortion pill.  

It’s not a crappy roll of the dice when you get aids from sex.  It’s a result of you having sex with someone with aids.

Even if you're a woman who has unprotected vaginal sex with a man, contracting AIDS is a terrible roll of the dice.  It's like 1 in 1250 if the person has had AIDS for some time, but it skyrockets at the start of infection. 

If you have sex with someone who doesn't yet know he has HIV, you're much, much more likely to contract the virus.  You go from 1 in 1250 to 1 in 50 or so if they've been infected in the last three months.  That's a maniacally bad roll of the dice, and the most likely way to get it.

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Just now, shader said:

But rape and the danger of the mothers life are the two “go-to” arguments that are commonly used.  Without them, the whole thing COMPLETELY falls apart morally.

They are fair and reasonable arguments.  But they are not representative of a majority of the situations.

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3 minutes ago, unckeyherb said:

I'm not sure how you got there.  

Watch this:

"I was raped.  I never reported it because I didn't know my attacker and I can't go through that emotionally.  I would like one abortion, please."

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2 minutes ago, shader said:

But rape and the danger of the mothers life are the two “go-to” arguments that are commonly used.  Without them, the whole thing COMPLETELY falls apart morally.

I disagree.  And while you may not agree with me, my opinion is not an insane one.

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5 minutes ago, shader said:

You’re using rape when it suits you to make your point, even though it’s a very low percentage of abortions. I personally am not in favor of abortions for rape victims, but I bet many politicalguys would be ok with separating the two.

Not in favor as in you have moral issues with them, or not in favor as in you want them to be illegal?

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If you were raped while you were a goalie for an indentured servant, do you still have to provide a life support system to a violinist?

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Just now, sho nuff said:

If you were raped while you were a goalie for an indentured servant, do you still have to provide a life support system to a violinist?

Apparently shader thinks so.  But then he's pretty sure that when your 14-year-old daughter comes home after a violin concert we have to make Schindler's List II about it.

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8 minutes ago, pepwaves said:

"You guys"? Who are you calling "you guys"?! 😉

In all seriousness, I definitely understand the chances. My wife and I really struggled to "slip one past the goalie" so to speak.

Suppose in your scenario, a person has been told all their life that every time they eat a cheeseburger, there is a chance (albeit an extremely small chance) that someday they might find themselves tied down in a bed with a famous violinist hooked to their circulatory system for 9 months. Would this change how you think about this situation the person was "forced" into? I mean, I know cheeseburgers are good...and dammit Red Cow burgers in the Cities are especially hard to say "no" to. But, if I knew I might be tied down for 9 months with someone else hooked to my circulatory system, I might think twice about eating that delicious cheeseburger.

I probably should not have entered this discussion without a preface lest you loop me into a category with these other "guys". But, maybe I'll let you do that anyway since I should be working right now....ha. 

His argument seems to be that humans are going to have sex anyway.  Which is true for most humans. But where that argument fails is in the assumption that just because humans want to have sex, means that having Sex doesn’t carry consequences.

If a man and wife (who are against abortion and can’t afford another child), decide to have sex even though they ran out of condoms, they will know that they “screwed up” if she gets pregnant.  But they will quickly move on, accept the responsibilities of the child, and be adults about the situation.  They will love the child as much as any other children.

Those that don’t want to accept responsibilities won’t.  They will instead murder the young child and deprive it of a chance to live.

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4 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

I disagree.  And while you may not agree with me, my opinion is not an insane one.

Just one I find morally objectionable.

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14 minutes ago, pepwaves said:

"You guys"? Who are you calling "you guys"?! 😉

In all seriousness, I definitely understand the chances. My wife and I really struggled to "slip one past the goalie" so to speak.

Suppose in your scenario, a person has been told all their life that every time they eat a cheeseburger, there is a chance (albeit an extremely small chance) that someday they might find themselves tied down in a bed with a famous violinist hooked to their circulatory system for 9 months. Would this change how you think about this situation the person was "forced" into? I mean, I know cheeseburgers are good...and dammit Red Cow burgers in the Cities are especially hard to say "no" to. But, if I knew I might be tied down for 9 months with someone else hooked to my circulatory system, I might think twice about eating that delicious cheeseburger.

I probably should not have entered this discussion without a preface lest you loop me into a category with these other "guys". But, maybe I'll let you do that anyway since I should be working right now....ha. 

If millions of years of evolution led to the existence of the human race being dependent on eating cheeseburgers and every fiber of our being screaming out to eat a cheeseburger, absolutely I would feel the same way about it.

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Just now, shader said:

Just one I find morally objectionable.

You're entitled to.  I find yours morally objectionable.

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7 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

If you were raped while you were a goalie for an indentured servant, do you still have to provide a life support system to a violinist?

Welcome to the conversation.  Thanks for bringing up the rape scenario.  Super helpful

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2 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

You're entitled to.  I find yours morally objectionable.

Im fine with that.  For the record, Im not political.  I’ll never be out there pushing for laws to change. But I have the right to say that I think abortion is murder, and I’m totally cool with any consequences that come from me saying that.  

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6 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

If millions of years of evolution led to the existence of the human race being dependent on eating cheeseburgers and every fiber of our being screaming out to eat a cheeseburger, absolutely I would feel the same way about it.

What if I ate all the cheeseberders, with all the McNugget sauces, a couple McRibs, and a jamocha shake? 

 

 

 

 

Id be a national champion!

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7 minutes ago, shader said:

Im fine with that.  For the record, Im not political.  I’ll never be out there pushing for laws to change. But I have the right to say that I think abortion is murder, and I’m totally cool with any consequences that come from me saying that.  

Absolutely.  And I have the right to say that I think anyone who argues against women having choice in abortion decisions is essentially a slave master.  I'm totally cool with any consequences that come from me saying that.

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 We are all on an anonymous fantasy football message board. What ####### consequences are we all expecting?  Jeebus

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TIL, when I step into a Late-term abortion discussion I'd have a sudden hankering for fast food whilst listening to classical music.

What a tangled web we weave.

 

ETA:  I think this is what happens when we let a lawyer (aka a professional arguer)  run amok.  :devil:

Edited by Hugh Jass
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1 minute ago, unckeyherb said:

 We are all on an anonymous fantasy football message board. What ####### consequences are we all expecting?  Jeebus

Well, sometimes when I say it I'm at a podium or saying it in writing with my bar number attached.  So I have some consequences.  I can't speak for shader.

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1 minute ago, Henry Ford said:

Well, sometimes when I say it I'm at a podium or saying it in writing with my bar number attached.  So I have some consequences.  I can't speak for shader.

 You call people slave masters in court filings? That’s weird. 

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Just now, unckeyherb said:

 You call people slave masters in court filings? That’s weird. 

I have argued the thirteenth amendment in cases where I need judicial approval to get a young woman an abortion, yes.

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8 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

If millions of years of evolution led to the existence of the human race being dependent on eating cheeseburgers and every fiber of our being screaming out to eat a cheeseburger, absolutely I would feel the same way about it.

Ok, I couldn't resist jumping back in...it's Friday!

Fair enough. Our bodies do not have quite the same urge to eat a cheeseburger as they do to have sex. 

However, I think you could apply this to other choices and behaviors that have basis in evolution and evolutionary psychology. Take for example, the need to be part of a "group". This has an evolutionary basis. If our early ancestors weren't part of a group or tribe, they usually did not survive due to the many dangers that confronted them. This innate human need leads everyone to seek out inclusion in a group somewhere...and of course some people seek inclusion in groups that have potential to do horrible things (Nazis, KKK, MS-13).

If a person who was merely following his evolutionary need to be part of a group in order to survive life in his neighborhood murdered another person, how would you weigh choice and evolutionary needs in this scenario? Would responsibility come into play at all? Would that person be absolved of any responsibility for murdering another human being?

These examples are getting very convoluted and that's why I appreciated Sho Nuff's comment making light of things. But, my point in going down this rabbit hole is simply to say stances on both sides of the aisle, pro-life and pro-choice, are not as black-and-white as they are made to be. Nuance needs to be included in the discussion. Emotionally-loaded terms like "slavery" and "murder" aren't very helpful and often just serve to shut down discussion rather than further it. 

My personal stance is that I do not like abortion. In fact, I find it incredibly sad. However, I am also a man, and I have no idea what it is like to carry another being in my body for 9-10 months. I can only imagine what it feels like (and perhaps for some it does feel like "slavery"). I also am a Democrat and I vote for pro-choice politicians.  I do not really think Roe v. Wade should be overturned because it would lead to many other issues (i.e. women possibly having unsafe abortions). But, I wish there was a better way and I wish pro-choice politicians were also willing to talk more about their moral feelings on the issue. 

In the end, I defer to the woman in making a choice about their own body, even if I find that choice to be morally wrong. If I am ever in a situation where a friend or family member of mine tells me of their desire to have an abortion, I would do more listening than anything else. If they asked how I felt about abortion, I would tell them. And I would hope that they would trust me to continue walking life with them...no matter how I feel about what they might choose to do. 

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