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Joe Flacco Traded to Denver - With a Poll

Rate this move for Denver  

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Let's talk about this move specifically. What do you think it means for Flacco and the Broncos and anything else?

Edited to add a Poll.

Edited by Joe Bryant
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As a sometimes Broncos fan my feeling is... This was sort of expected but, meh.

The Broncos offense now just looks like the Ravens offense instead of looking like the Redskins.

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Pete Smith‏ @_PeteSmith_ 1h1 hour ago  Pete Smith Retweeted Patrick Grannan

That's something we can all enjoy. There are teams that might have gotten use from Flacco. The Broncos went from being a 3rd place AFC West team with a mid round pick to a 3rd place AFC West team without one.

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I can see the Broncos cutting Keenum, drafting Drew Lock, and letting him sit and learn for a year or 2 under Flacco. Lock can learn a lot more from Flacco than Keenum IMO. Flacco has a big arm and throws one of the best deep balls in the league. I think it's an upgrade for Sutton and Hamilton.

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29 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Let's talk about this move specifically. What do you think it means for Flacco and the Broncos and anything else?

It’s a big upgrade for the broncos. It beats all the other losers they’ve played the last few years.

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I think it's a lateral move.  I don't really see Flacco as an upgrade over Keenum.  They both have things they do decently but neither really move the needle one way or the other.  It's just bleh.....

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4 minutes ago, voiceofunreason said:

It’s a big upgrade for the broncos. It beats all the other losers they’ve played the last few years.

Uh, no

1 minute ago, Gally said:

I think it's a lateral move.  I don't really see Flacco as an upgrade over Keenum.  They both have things they do decently but neither really move the needle one way or the other.  It's just bleh.....

yes, they both are mediocre

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3 minutes ago, Gally said:

I think it's a lateral move.  I don't really see Flacco as an upgrade over Keenum.  They both have things they do decently but neither really move the needle one way or the other.  It's just bleh.....

Keenum is horrible. At least Flacco is only poor.

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1 minute ago, voiceofunreason said:

Keenum is horrible. At least Flacco is only poor.

Their career efficiency stats are pretty much identical. 

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Flacco is 22nd in active Y/A, 22nd in active passer rating, 18th in active completion %, 24th in active pass TD % and  10th highest active interception %. 

Keenum is 19th in Y/A, 20th in passer rating, 17th in completion %, 28th in TD%, 9th in INT %. 

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A strong running game with flacco throwing play action passes and a quality defense could be tough.  Are they going to have Sanders next year?  If not, maybe they bring in john brown. Let sutton develop skills to match his game and use daesean underneath. 

Dip into a strong defensive line class, replenish that d and maybe they can be the playoff ravens. 

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8 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

A strong running game with flacco throwing play action passes and a quality defense could be tough.  Are they going to have Sanders next year?  If not, maybe they bring in john brown. Let sutton develop skills to match his game and use daesean underneath. 

Dip into a strong defensive line class, replenish that d and maybe they can be the playoff ravens. 

Doesn't John Brown have that sickle cell trait situation?  If so, I don't see any way he signs in Denver since the altitude seems to have issues with that situation. 

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3 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Flacco is 22nd in active Y/A, 22nd in active passer rating, 18th in active completion %, 24th in active pass TD % and  10th highest active interception %. 

A lot of those numbers look better when you add in opponent penalty yards per penalty. 2011 to 2016 they were at or near the top of the league

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-penalty-yards-per-penalty?date=2011-02-07

That's what happens when you throw a lot of deep balls and have a good defense, kicker and running game - it hurts your completion percentage and passing touchdowns but gets you points. 

I'm not saying ther ravens were an elite offense, but they were a tough playoff team and flacco could help get the Broncos back to that level.  That's probably the best they can hope for for this year but it's not terrible. 

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I don’t think this takes Lock off the table.

Flacco feels like 2019’s version of Sam Bradford, less the brittle.  At the same time, it probably allows the Broncos to have some degree of patience while not having to endure another season of Keenum.

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11 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

A strong running game with flacco throwing play action passes and a quality defense could be tough.  Are they going to have Sanders next year?  If not, maybe they bring in john brown. Let sutton develop skills to match his game and use daesean underneath. 

Dip into a strong defensive line class, replenish that d and maybe they can be the playoff ravens. 

I doubt Sanders is back. Late season ruptured achilles, 32 years old, $12 million cap hit and they can save $10 million by cutting him. 

1 minute ago, Gally said:

Doesn't John Brown have that sickle cell trait situation?  If so, I don't see any way he signs in Denver since the altitude seems to have issues with that situation. 

He does have sickle cell and so Denver would be a very unlikely landing spot. 

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4 minutes ago, Gally said:

Doesn't John Brown have that sickle cell trait situation?  If so, I don't see any way he signs in Denver since the altitude seems to have issues with that situation. 

Good point. I have no idea how that stuff works. 

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9 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

A lot of those numbers look better when you add in opponent penalty yards per penalty. 2011 to 2016 they were at or near the top of the league

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-penalty-yards-per-penalty?date=2011-02-07

That's what happens when you throw a lot of deep balls and have a good defense, kicker and running game - it hurts your completion percentage and passing touchdowns but gets you points. 

I'm not saying ther ravens were an elite offense, but they were a tough playoff team and flacco could help get the Broncos back to that level.  That's probably the best they can hope for for this year but it's not terrible. 

He doesn't throw a lot of deep balls or at least doesn't complete them. His yards per attempt is not good and never has. 

ETA: maybe when you factor in penalties, there isn't a breakdown there by type of penalty. I just think Flacco and Keenum are both below average NFL QBs and Flacco comes with a top 8 QB price tag. I hate the move. 

Edited by Ilov80s

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1 minute ago, bostonfred said:

Good point. I have no idea how that stuff works. 

Sickle cell makes it more difficult for your blood to transport oxygen through the body so being at a higher altitude means even less Oxygen is getting into the body.

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4 minutes ago, TheDirtyWord said:

I don’t think this takes Lock off the table.

Flacco feels like 2019’s version of Sam Bradford, less the brittle.  At the same time, it probably allows the Broncos to have some degree of patience while not having to endure another season of Keenum.

Not at all.  But, I do think it takes trading up for Lock off the table. 

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6 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

He doesn't throw a lot of deep balls or at least doesn't complete them. His yards per attempt is not good and never has. 

I know that's how the stats look but when you have a good running game and throw deep play action passes you end up with pass interference penalties from d backs in single coverage. 

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9 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

I know that's how the stats look but when you have a good running game and throw deep play action passes you end up with pass interference penalties from d backs in single coverage. 

They must be drawing penalties because I looked at Football Outsiders for PA and Baltimore consistently runs it  a lot with bottom 3rd success over non-PA. 

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From our Adam Harstad. He said he'd chime in later:

Quote

Quick contractual aside:

Ignoring all the guaranteed money (which stays in Baltimore and hits their cap), Flacco is on the hook for $18.5m this year, $20.25m next year, and $24.25m in 2021. No more guaranteed money which means those last two years are really just team options and the Broncos can cut him without consequence. (Actually: 2019 is technically a team option, too; if he really stinks the Broncos can just cut him this offseason with no adverse effects on their cap. They won't, but they could.)

Keenum is on the books for $21m this year. $3m is pro-rated signing bonus from 2018, $7m is guaranteed salary for 2019, and $11m is non-guaranteed salary. That $10m in bonuses is essentially already spent, it's a sunk cost. Don't think about it as $10m in "dead money" if they cut him. Denver is spending that $10m on Case Keenum whether they cut him or not.

The real question here is would you prefer Joe Flacco for $18.5m plus two team-option years, or Case Keenum for $11m. I think I'd prefer Flacco, actually. His on-field statistics may have been comparable, but all of the other indicators we have suggest he's a better quarterback.

With that said, it's a pretty weak preference and I wouldn't give up a lot to achieve it. If Denver did something like move down 20 spots in the middle of the draft, then I think this was a solid move. If they did something like give up a 2nd, I think this was an awful move. If they did something like give up a 4th... I think it's a bad move, but I wouldn't call it unconscionable or anything. I think it's just a generic garden-variety bad move. Albeit one that draws more attention to itself than most garden-variety bad moves simply because Flacco is involved and he's a fun target for mockery.

(I'm also totally sympathetic to the idea that "Flacco or Keenum" is really a false dilemma and Denver needs to get working on a genuine rebuild, but given that Elway is committed to trying to compete in the near term, I don't think trading for Flacco is materially worse than sticking with Keenum.)

 

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What I find interesting is some people I think a lot of think this move is laughably bad for Denver. I don't hate the move. Like they were stunned when I said I didn't hate it. But I'm in the minority it seems. Interesting. 

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I was actually torn between terrible and laughably bad.  He's not an improvement over Keenum in the sense that they aren't competing this season with either of these cinder blocks as their QB.  So they spent money on salary, gave up a draft pick, and got nothing advantageous in return.

Flacco's not even a great locker room presence.  He's always been aloof and doing his own thing.  He has zero personality or charisma.  I'm not sure I would want a rookie mentoring under him.

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22 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

From our Adam Harstad. He said he'd chime in later:

The real question here is would you prefer Joe Flacco for $18.5m plus two team-option years, or Case Keenum for $11m. I think I'd prefer Flacco, actually. His on-field statistics may have been comparable, but all of the other indicators we have suggest he's a better quarterback.

What other indicators do we have that he's better than Keenum? He won a super bowl 7 years ago and hasn't had anything close to that season since? From a statistical efficiency standpoint he is pretty on par with Keenum who is 3 years younger and has bounced from team to team. And he's now going from a perennially top 10 rated offensive line to a bottom 10 one and Flacco isn't exactly known for his mobility.

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22 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

What I find interesting is some people I think a lot of think this move is laughably bad for Denver. I don't hate the move. Like they were stunned when I said I didn't hate it. But I'm in the minority it seems. Interesting. 

Most people clearly don't like it. Bovada moved the Broncos SB odds from 100-1 to 125-1 after the trade announcement. 

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1 hour ago, tex said:

I can see the Broncos cutting Keenum, drafting Drew Lock, and letting him sit and learn for a year or 2 under Flacco. Lock can learn a lot more from Flacco than Keenum IMO. Flacco has a big arm and throws one of the best deep balls in the league. I think it's an upgrade for Sutton and Hamilton.

But Flacco is a horrible Mentor!  He ignored Lamar Jackson and wanted nothing to do with him.  Keenum would have been a better mentor.  

I agree that Sutton is a nice little bump but they could have done better. 

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Is it a foregone conclusion that Flacco flat-out replaces Keenum?

Seems to me they are creating a QB competition between two vets. Loser gets cut. Winner plays ahead of a developmental guy for a year or two.

Not crazy IMO.

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2 hours ago, Gally said:

I think it's a lateral move.  I don't really see Flacco as an upgrade over Keenum. 

I'm not a big Flacco fan but Keenum looked like absolute trash whenever I saw him play in Denver and let's face it he wasn't all that great with the Vikings either. It's an upgrade but likely not a big enough one to make any real difference.

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18 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

Is it a foregone conclusion that Flacco flat-out replaces Keenum?

Seems to me they are creating a QB competition between two vets. Loser gets cut. Winner plays ahead of a developmental guy for a year or two.

Not crazy IMO.

FWIW, Rappaport has reported that the Bronco's are already shopping Keenum. Seems highly unlikely anyone will trade for him with his contract and since the Bronco's would be stuck with $40M allocated to two QB's. If the Bronco's have any intentions of playing in the FA market then Keenum needs to be off the roster before the start of the new league year.

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8 minutes ago, Buckna said:

FWIW, Rappaport has reported that the Bronco's are already shopping Keenum. Seems highly unlikely anyone will trade for him with his contract and since the Bronco's would be stuck with $40M allocated to two QB's. If the Bronco's have any intentions of playing in the FA market then Keenum needs to be off the roster before the start of the new league year.

Good info. I saw the trade rumors but was unaware that Keenum needs to be off the roster so soon.

Given that, I would say it's gone from decent hedge to an awful move for the Broncos. Looks like Elway is still in denial about being in full-on rebuilding mode.

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2 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

Flacco is 22nd in active Y/A, 22nd in active passer rating, 18th in active completion %, 24th in active pass TD % and  10th highest active interception %. 

Keenum is 19th in Y/A, 20th in passer rating, 17th in completion %, 28th in TD%, 9th in INT %. 

 

Keenum hasn’t played enough to fully flesh out his inadequacies.  

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I think its kinda like going from a D+ to a C-, so given the money Flacco makes, I doubt its worth it, even though Flacco is better. That said, i think people are sleeping on Denver. They were a good football team this year, that had the league's worst coaching(once Hue wasn't a HC) they could have been the #6 seed with even average coaching, and with Keenum. 

Its very possible Fangio gets this up to being in the conversation for the NFL's best defense again. 

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1 minute ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

Keenum hasn’t played enough to fully flesh out his inadequacies.  

Yeah there’s definitely a big difference in experience but Keenum has started 54 games.

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Totally on the fence. In BALT they would call a deep out (15 yards down the sidelines) on 3rd and 2 all the time. This guy doesn't put it on the money. It failed all the time. Lets see what he can do with competent play calling….if Denver even has that.

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I think they should suck for Lawrence.  Flacco doesn't help them make it to the post season, or certainly doesn't help them win in the post season. He may win enough to keep them from drafting a good QB next year.  If I were Elway I would tank 2019 to get the #1 overall pick and draft Trevor Lawrence.  Much like the Colts did with Luck.  It's not often a once in a decade QB is available.  Most of the time it's your Drew Lock's, Josh Rosen's,  and Josh Allen's  and Daniel Jones' of the world.

Edited by JohnnyU

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1 minute ago, JohnnyU said:

I think they should suck for Lawrence.  Flacco doesn't help them make it to the post season, or certainly doesn't help them win in the post season. He may win enough to keep them from drafting a good QB next year.  If were Elway I would tank 2019 to get the #1 overall pick and draft Trevor Lawrence.  Much like the Colts did with Luck.

Maybe that is why they got Flacco.......hahhaaa

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1 minute ago, JohnnyU said:

I think they should suck for Lawrence.  Flacco doesn't help them make it to the post season, or certainly doesn't help them win in the post season. He may win enough to keep them from drafting a good QB next year.  If I were Elway I would tank 2019 to get the #1 overall pick and draft Trevor Lawrence.  Much like the Colts did with Luck.

Flacco has the 10th most playoff victories of any starting QB in the history of the NFL. 

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2 minutes ago, menobrown said:

Flacco has the 10th most playoff victories of any starting QB in the history of the NFL. 

He isn't very good now and I don't think he ever was.

Edited by JohnnyU

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