(HULK)
(Smash)
So, in a legalized environment or decriminalized environment, the downside of reporting it is removed. I suspect that would make some difference, but I'm not sure on how much of one.
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Robert Kraft (yes, THAT Robert Kraft) charged with soliciting prostitution (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter IvanKaramazov
- Start date
bigbottom
Footballguy
I think easily 10 of the 14 pages in this thread are posts by a handful of folks who do indeed have some experience or background in this area (or have existing knowledge) and are debating various studies, statistics, law enforcement approaches, societal impacts, policies, etc. Commenting on people conveniently caring for the first time about a long-standing problem because of a salacious news story may be a valid criticism of a lot of the media and public reaction to this story, but I don’t really think it applies to this thread so much.
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(HULK)
(Smash)
Law enforcement education is laughably bad. Remember that D.A.R.E. program our tax dollars paid for? It correlated strongly with an INCREASE in illegal drug use.
(HULK)
(Smash)
I have the same assumption.
In which case, if that is true, who is going to hold the folks like the prosecutor accountable? My guess is no one.
(HULK)
(Smash)
I also have the thought that the voice of actual sex workers should be a very important voice in this. However, I want to consider more than just their thoughts about it.
Thorn
Footballguy
Well the standard for slander is a difficult one in the US. There has to be "actual malice" if the person is a public figure, and "knowledge of the falsity of the statement." Tough to prove.
Though apparently Justice Thomas is interested in changing that definition.
(HULK)
(Smash)
Do you have experience with women in their 40s being trafficked? If so, I wouldn't mind hearing about it. My assumption on that could easily be wrong, just trying to learn IMO
simey
Footballguy
Law enforcement is giving out free information that can be helpful in trying to recognize human trafficking, and of places to be careful of. I credit them for trying to help, and I sure as hell don't laugh at their efforts.
(HULK)
(Smash)
I'm sorta guilty of that. I paid some attention when DC had a bill to decriminalize it, but I never got to the depth I wanted to. I'm still curious about it, and came here hoping to discuss and learn more, and yes, this was spurred by the current news story. But, I've got my own life to live, kids to raise, etc... maybe we all should give more time to these issues but it's tough to find the time for it.
(HULK)
(Smash)
I wonder if he's also interested in updating the statute of limitations for it while he's at it.
Whatever the case may be, moving beyond this particular circumstance, we as a country have just gotten way out of hand with sensationalizing everything. I do not think that this leads to an environment for optimal decision making, in fact, I'd argue that a lot of bad decisions are made due to it.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cshti0810.pdf
The Bureau of Justice Statistics compiled data on "Victim characteristics in cases confirmed to be human trafficking by high data quality task forces" in filed cases from 2008 to 2010.
2-3% of the sex trafficking victims were 35 or over. Another 2-3% were of unknown age.
The age data is not separated by gender.
Edit: more than a third of the "labor trafficking" victims were 35 or over.
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(HULK)
(Smash)
I'm not really laughing at it. I'm referencing D.A.R.E., a program that cost billions of dollars and led to higher drug use.
Police and politics driving decisions like these have a historical precedence that is pretty gross. Weed is pretty much illegal due to nothing but racism, and to Nixon trying to turn his critics into criminals.
Like I said, sub-optimal decisions from sub-optimal information. If it does turn out that Orchids of Asia had no trafficking, maybe they should update their information about how to recognize human trafficking.
(HULK)
(Smash)
Henry Ford
Footballguy
When compared to underage sex trafficking victims? Yes. Which is why the number of 40 year olds doesn't shift the average age up significantly.
Of course, labor trafficking is also human trafficking, and 35+ is a significant demographic of that group.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
The "what the investigators find" bit is really "what will these women testify to." Because that's where it all falls in most human trafficking cases. "Is there someone for whom being under the claimed protection of the police is enough to testify against the alleged perpetrators."
There are very strong laws to help human trafficking victims in Florida. I don't know of a law strong enough to make a victim testify when the leverage over her is that the group that trafficked her will kill her family in another country.
kutta
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
It is. I believe it was marginally better than BS.gov.Is that website really www.bjs.gov
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(HULK)
(Smash)
Do you have any first hand experiences with a woman who privately explained trafficking but then refused to testify for the reasons you listed above? I'm just curious.
From the outside looking in, I could see that happening. I also could see an opposite situation where a woman who was voluntarily working as a sex worker claims trafficking to avoid deportation, gain immunity, etc.
I've always assumed that these Asian massage parlors filled with old ladies were typically NOT part of unwilling sex trafficking. Now, surely these women often move in and out of our country without proper paperwork, but I figured it was a choice made by them to make money. I have no first hand experience to site unfortunately though. I do question the story the police and prosecutor are spreading though, in regards to Orchids of Asia. Clearly the 2 women charged as proprietors had free access to come and go, and plenty of cash on hand (one had $22K cash in her purse when arrested). Are these 2 women keeping the rest of the women there against their will? If so, why are they also servicing clients? It's not like plantation owners would be out in the field picking cotton themselves... it's just not fitting in with my existing ideas about slavery I guess.
Ultimately, because of reasons why a person might NOT explain that they've been trafficked and exploited and additional reasons why they might falsely claim it, I think it is super hard to get a clear and accurate picture of the situation.
(HULK)
(Smash)
One of the projects my company works on is the website for the Family Advocacy Planning Network... which is very unfortunately named FAPnet.Is that website really www.bjs.gov
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I can say that there is generally a matrix of reasons that anyone is in sex work for long periods of time. It's like asking why someone does drugs or why someone wears a hat or any other thing - there is seldom a single reason anyone is involved in almost anything. Think about the actions and activities you participate in that define who you are. Your job, your marriage, your children, your hobbies. Very few of those will be "single reason" things.
Yes, you married your wife because you love her and she loves you. But also because it happened at the right time, you both were in the same place and met for some reason, she does that thing you like that you'd never had before (I'm talking about cooking, get your mind out of the gutter), you both like the TV show House, or whatever the reasons are. A million little reasons for the things that define us.
There are so many possibilities that would answer your questions that I don't know that I can provide all the possible answers. And each one is rare because each person is unique. And to say "these two women also serviced clients because..." would be making up scenarios. I can't tell you exactly why these women did. But it does suggest that they weren't really reaping all of the profits from the places. And they may be - or others may be - keeping the women there. Imagine you're trafficked to, say, Dubai, a place with a human rights record you either know nothing about or do and know it's abysmal (and effectively allows labor trafficking.) Someone has either threatened your family or some equally horrible thing and says "you belong to us now. You work here." What would you do if you got some small freedom to move? Go to the police? In Dubai? Tell the nearest officer you've been trafficked, when in all likelihood they don't care and are probably getting paid off by whoever trafficked you? What happens if you use that freedom to try to get help and it doesn't go the way you want it to? What if you do escape and then they have your family killed back home?
"Proprietor" (despite dictionary definitions) is not always the same thing as "full owner" when you're dealing with a multi-location and/or multi-national organization. A person who runs the place doesn't necessarily own the profits from it. If you're bringing in women from another country, pretty good chance the woman giving HJs for $80 and carrying $22,000.00 in cash isn't also the recruiter in Hanoi or Beijing or wherever.
The questions you're asking, they make me think of Kanye. When he said "When you hear about slavery for 400 years ... For 400 years? That sounds like a choice."
I guess what I'm saying is, "It's complicated."
Henry Ford
Footballguy
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
He will not be taken into custody from what I understand. He was assigned a court date of April 24th which he does not have to attend but a lawyer for him does. I believe this is the arraignment portion.
The max penalty for this charge is 1 year but I doubt he sees any time.
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Courtjester
The Town Drunk
Unless LE has airtight evidence in these girls being victims of trafficking and Kraft being aware of this, then it sounds like he is more than likely going to get offered a Diversion type program where he will pay a fine and do community service and the case gets dismissed. That is standard for first time offenders with zero criminal history. He may not even have to make a court appearance as a lot of low level misdemeanor pleas are handled through your attorney.
Of course since this is being portrayed as this major sex trafficking bust, the public perception will be that he got off easy as he is a rich white guy. When in fact, it sounds like it is standard operating procedure in a lot of states.
I don’t pretend to know all the details of the case, but a few things jump out against the LE. You are so concerned about these girls being used and abused, but you continue to film them having to perform day after day rather than arresting prior to the act? That just seems a little unsettling. The second thing was the made up traffic stop on Kraft just to obtain his identity through his driver license.
I don’t think Kraft will push these issues as he just wants it to go away, but just things I see that are odd.
Of course since this is being portrayed as this major sex trafficking bust, the public perception will be that he got off easy as he is a rich white guy. When in fact, it sounds like it is standard operating procedure in a lot of states.
I don’t pretend to know all the details of the case, but a few things jump out against the LE. You are so concerned about these girls being used and abused, but you continue to film them having to perform day after day rather than arresting prior to the act? That just seems a little unsettling. The second thing was the made up traffic stop on Kraft just to obtain his identity through his driver license.
I don’t think Kraft will push these issues as he just wants it to go away, but just things I see that are odd.
Bonzai
Footballguy
I can understand trafficking charges not being filed in that scenario. But to then turn around and charge her with prostitution? That seems insane to me.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Kraft, through his attorney, has made only one statement so far and that was to declare in clear terms that he did nothing illegal. And this statement was made after the police announced they had video evidence.
I have no idea what his plan is. I guess we will see how his lawyer pleads during his arraignment on April 24.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
It's pretty heavy handed. I don't agree with the use of the tactic. However the statute provides that if she's been trafficked, they get dropped. The argument is that prosecutors are trying to make her testify even if she's scared.Bonzai said:
Henry Ford
Footballguy
"nolo contendere" is my best guess.NewlyRetired said:
ChiefD
Footballguy
Judge Smails
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
The two women they caught Kraft with. But they didn’t rule it out. Abd that article also says others at that spa are believed to be trafficked.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
This is roughly where I'm coming down on this as well, and it ticks me off. All I wanted was to wallow in Robert Kraft's public humiliation and score some cheap laughs at his expense, and now I've ended up actually feeling kind of sorry for the guy.(HULK) said:
![[icon]](/data/avatars/m/5/5167.jpg?1660313464){kind=avatar}
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Insoxicated
I for one am shocked. I hope Kraft sues the shot out of the SA, who is a known huge Dolphins fan....
bigbottom
Footballguy
As an aside, I love the headline. Am I mistaken or wasn’t one of his visits all of 14 minutes? That must have been one quick massage!
pantherclub
Footballguy
So whats your angle here? Because to me it looks like this situation is two fold. You have the Kraft thing here in this thread but the larger issue is the trafficking. But as it states his girls probably were legit.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
My angle? My angle is I’m sick of how little this country cares about sex crimes perpetrated against women and blames them for being victims of sex crimes. Including women in this spa who by accounts so far were sleeping on massage beds, working seven days a week, moved from parlor to parlor, and some had their passports confiscated
His women during this sting, yes, were much less likely to have been human trafficked than others in the parlor. I assume your position is that he randomly walked in off the street for these two “massages”?
pantherclub
Footballguy
You are getting a little over the top here. Kraft knew what he was doing but I doubt he gave any thought about trafficking as a whole. This thread however is about Kraft and his misdemeanors. I can see how it has morphed into what you are talking about but as far as Kraft goes he should be in the clear so to speak.
But as to your point about people not caring I really dont know where you are getting that. Getting fired up on here about it isnt really going to do anything.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
1. Kraft is a mega donor to a human trafficking organization. He has spoken with the director personally. He has every reason to know this is human trafficking. If he’s in the clear for you, congrats. Hope that works out for you.
2. To the bolded, I have a couple threads in the PSF regarding this country not caring. Also a billionaire was going to a human trafficking establishment for who knows how long, had who knows how many of the women work on him and you think it’s over the top and getting worked up to say he’s financially supporting a specific human trafficking operation, so there’s that.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
I donate to some charities that fight this like Polaris So I get what you are saying but
but ..
people including you and me buy things every day from organizations that use trafficked or trapped individuals. It’s not with the intent to continue trafficking. But it’s a fact. Maybe it’s your clothes Maybe it’s your burger Maybe it’s you car Maybe it’s your vegetables Maybe it’s the lumber in your house. It’s been going on for thousands and thousands of years
the world is better now than ever Most people are trying to make it even better. but you may want to examine every single purchase you make before you throw stones at pretty much the entire world
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
I hope you don't own any Nike shoes or support any organization that has a contract with Nike.
HellToupee
Footballguy
Take a deep dive look at nail salons
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
The manager of the Orlando (not Jupiter) massage parlors that were part of the statewide sting has been charged with human trafficking. Just as she was in Oxford, Mass in 2012.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Thought you were a Saints fan. Can't be thrilled that Kaepernick who seemingly wants to be a leader is intimately involved with a company like Nike.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I am a Saints fan. In fact, I gave up my season tickets after either 2010 or 2011. I don't financially support the NFL for a number of reasons.
Also, I believe I actually stated in the Kaepernick thread that we shouldn't get too excited about Nike supporting Kaepernick because they're still using sweatshops. If not, I certainly apologize for not being clear. I haven't purchased a product with a Nike logo in at least 25 years.
What does Kaepernick have to do with being a Saints fan?
(HULK)
(Smash)
@Henry Ford Do you think it is possible that the prosecutors are flying the "sex trafficking" flag for potential political gain, funding reasons, etc?
There are a lot of people involved with reasons to lie. Women involved could be coerced by traffickers holding something over them. DA could be trying to make big headlines for political reasons. It's really difficult to know what's what IMO.
(HULK)
(Smash)
They could be. But last I saw the DA was saying "no evidence they were trafficked" but he's still hoping to develop some.
Also, his women weren't allowed to leave the premises comment has proven false already, saw that yesterday. At least in terms of the Orchids of Asia place, I haven't even glanced at what was going on at the other parlors involved in the sting.
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