Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
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Robert Kraft (yes, THAT Robert Kraft) charged with soliciting prostitution (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter IvanKaramazov
- Start date
pantherclub
Footballguy
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
1. IIRC, it's even part of the state constitution
2. People want more transparency in their government; here's a great example of what it could be and you're complaining about it?
pantherclub
Footballguy
Seems to me this case shows massive loopholes in the law. Kraft is 100% innocent in the eyes of the law but yet this still can come out even after obtaining the evidence on some shady premise. There is no other way to spin this then being flat wrong. Trust me I am not a Kraft fan or Pats fan just someone that can see this for what it is. A total snow job.
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Insoxicated
rockaction
Footballguy
It strikes me as completely antithetical to the spirit of the law, and like panther, I am no Kraft nor Pats fan. Furthest from.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
To bad for Kraft that he is not endowed like Brady. I understand that little Tom cannot be successfully photographed or videoed because it gives off such a radiant glow that it is blinding. It's made of the same substance as what was inside the case in Pulp Fiction, but more pure, more intense.
rockaction
Footballguy
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
(HULK)
(Smash)
I don't think the two are identical. A police department and a district attorney are supposed to be experts and authorities that we listen to, that we believe. I'm just a natural skeptic, so I wasn't sure what to think at first.
The second thing you've got to watch out for is if something fits the narrative you already consider accurate, it often makes it tough to be skeptical of those things. The opposite is also true, if it doesn't fit your narrative, you'll likely be extra skeptical. Waiting for the facts to fully come out is usually a smarter option than rushing to judgement. I try and do this. Don't always succeed, but in this day and age, I think it the wisest course. For example, I still haven't let myself crystalize my thoughts on the Mueller report, because I haven't read it myself yet. If I let someone else tell me what it is about, their bias is likely tilting their review of it, and I'm letting their bias shape my thoughts... which removes the actual agency from me.
rockaction
Footballguy
Heh. That wasn't directed at you, Tom.
It was solely directed at the Florida authorities.
(HULK)
(Smash)
What is the percentage chance? Genuinely curious.
Also, I came across this on Quora today. Definitely some unique insight: http://www.quora.com/Is-there-human-trafficking-that-goes-on-at-massage-places/answer/Gregory-Higley
He seemed to think it is barely any trafficking situations. But, I don't know who he is or if his story there is factual.
(HULK)
(Smash)
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I remember John Travolta was on Howard Stern many years ago and was asked what was in the case in Pulp Fiction. Travolta answered "the script to Battlefield Earth," which was a notable bomb that earned a quality 3% critic's score on Rotten Tomatoes. Travolta was so enthralled with the concept of Battlefield Earth that he took a steep pay cut to appear in the film and put up $5 million of his own money to get the film made.Ditkaless Wonders said:
(HULK)
(Smash)
The whole increasing the sex work market increases demand and results in more trafficking? I haven't run the numbers or reviewed the data on those studies myself, but I can see that argument as truthful... yet I can also see it not making sense from an economic perspective. Supply doesn't dictate demand. I'll have to look into that angle more as I continue to crystalize my thoughts on this issue, which is quickly becoming a 2020 presidential race topic.Moe. said:
That said, the impact of legalization and/or decriminalization on trafficking isn't the only result from those policies. For the willing prostitutes, either situation is drastically improved than the current status quo. I think that is pretty clear. It would be wise to try and consider the whole picture before shifting policy one way or another.
ETA: Just re-read my words and realized I missed something. Decriminalizing will increase demand as there are people who would partake if this was legal that are currently not in the market due to its illegality. Higher demand would potentially either increase price or increase supply, likely both. So, I take back my comments about economics applying.
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Moe.
Footballguy
The study I linked addresses the impact of increased demand specifically in one of the summary bullet points at the beginning. I can't pull it up at work (FBGs is not blocked but educational institutions are, lol) but it's in there.
I absolutely agree re: the bolded. I don't really know what to think but I definitely would prefer something different than what we are doing now (outright prohibition), that much is for sure. Maybe legalization would make it easier to go after the traffickers or those who would continue to operate illegally.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I remember my wife wanting to see that movie, she being a Travolta fan (I know, but she is hot so I make allowances) . We left after twenty minutes. We were among the last to leave.
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culdeus
Footballguy
I think this topic is just a hot button and leads to some sort of derangement of people's logic cores. They start with a premise:
-Sex trafficking is bad in all forms. 100% of this is bad and we should spare no expense in stopping it.
Then they try to extrapolate from some other fact
-Sex work is happening, illegally.
Then they try like hell to connect the dots, implying that because sex work is happening some of this must be trafficked. Similar mindset goes for the Crystal Pizza thing it's just two different dots to connect.
If the dots don't connect it doesn't matter, the conviction of how much they care about connecting them is what matters so anything that paints along that line is accepted as truth, it's just a matter of getting a little more paint out to finish it. I would put these DA/PD for this case in that category. They felt like surely something must be going on so they made a big bet. And lost.
They are more than willing to "Beat people with a halibut" or whatever to achieve this goal, even if what they do harm because remember. This bad thing that is happening is still bad.
Luckily we have people that still care about due process in this country. Some.
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
My friend who is a provider absolutely believes this. And I'm positive that's not just a self-serving belief of hers - her chances of getting busted are just this side of nil.
(HULK)
(Smash)
Oh, I'm sure the DA and Sheriff did this for political purposes. They want to be perceived as "tough on crime" and "fighting sex trafficking" for the voters. I'm sure they thought Kraft was a lotto ticket that hit, not realizing that he has the means to lawyer up and destroy them.
Judge Smails
Footballguy
So is the video out there or not?
SHIZNITTTT
Footballguy
https://www.boston.com/sports/new-england-patriots/2019/02/25/documents-robert-kraft-allegations
the whole finger in the butt.
Why didn't he just pay the fines and move on?
the whole finger in the butt.
Why didn't he just pay the fines and move on?
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pantherclub
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
I just read about normal prostitution activities there, nothing really specific about anal play. Maybe I'm missing something, but the link doesn't go to completely explicit details.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
yeah I am confused about this link. It seems like the link was presenting this as newly released information but when I read it I realized we already had all this information word for word months ago.
johnnycakes
Footballguy
Just saw on the news that the judge threw out video evidence.
http://wcvb.com/article/judge-grants-motion-to-suppress-video-evidence-in-robert-kraft-spa-case/27458591?src=app
http://wcvb.com/article/judge-grants-motion-to-suppress-video-evidence-in-robert-kraft-spa-case/27458591?src=app
rockaction
Footballguy
This was always coming. It's a violation of privacy and a waste of police resources. It was a maddening way to go about busting these guys, an anti-prostitution crusade gussied up in noble aims.
"As part of their undercover operation, detectives watched live video of customers inside the spa. If they saw a customer have sex with an employee, they would relay that information to officers in the parking lot and nearby. They would follow the customer until he allegedly committed a traffic violation and then stop him, getting his identification so he could be charged later with soliciting a prostitute.
The customers were not told at the time that they had been seen inside the spa.
The judge found that the video was a violation of a person’s expectation of privacy.
The ruling also throws out the information obtained during the traffic stops, raising questions about how the men could be identified without that evidence.
The prosecution has the right to appeal the decision. "We are reviewing the judges order at this point," said Michael Edmonson, a spokesperson for the prosecution's office.
Kraft has pleaded not guilty but issued a public apology for his actions."
Anyone familiar with police stuff know how this happens? How can they not know what's admissible when they set up the cameras?
Or it is a situation where their method stands up to regular guy who gets busted but when someone with Kraft's money and legal team is busted, they can find the video then inadmissible?
I'm also seeing a fair bit of "this was BS charges from the police" and these were "trumped up" charges that weren't reality.
My take is just because charges aren't pressed doesn't mean there wasn't a crime committed. The system feels massively rigged in favor of the rich guy here.
My take is just because charges aren't pressed doesn't mean there wasn't a crime committed. The system feels massively rigged in favor of the rich guy here.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
The human trafficking aspect appears to have been trumped up (which is unfortunately pretty common in big prostitution stings.)
i don’t think anyone has illusions about whether he violated a statute. But it’s not as if Johns serve timeb
matuski
Footballguy
I think you hit the nail on the head twice:
1) They don't care what is admissible, you see law enforcement over reaching their authority and power daily.
2) They continue because they get away with it with regular guy/regular lawyer.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
Depends on what your view of consensual prostitution between two grown adults is (and I'm not talking about sex trafficking or sex slavery). I myself think that it's ludacris that two consenting adults cannot agree to exchange intimacy for payment. Are they going to criminalize gold digging next? Kraft was guilty of a victimless crime in the minds of many. He certainly apologized for it publically and his reputation did take a hit.
In this particular case--what concerns me is that it looks as though the police cut corners and used improper ways and methods to gather evidence. They were effectively banking on there being human trafficking involved so they could justify these shortcuts and improper methods. They wanted to ends to justify the means--and that is not how police work should be done. I'm personally far more offended by police using shortcuts and sketchy methods of gathering evidence than I am about an old dude paying another consenting adult for intimacy.
I didn't see it mentioned on this page, apologies if it was covered previously, but the local LEO used a fake bomb threat to evacuate the massage parlor so they could install cameras to video tape the "Johns".
That in itself is sketchy as ####.
Leaking to the public that the "raid" was tied to human trafficking in order to amplify the reach of the story was also sketchy, now that we have learned, based on current charges, there was no human trafficking in this case.
In an effort to embarrass famous people they have increased a distrust in law enforcement and claims of human trafficking. Which is a shame because there is a real issue of human/sex trafficking in the US and worldwide.
As for legalization, if it worked the way it does in places like Amsterdam and Aruba (so I hear), the workers are tested for STDs on a weekly basis, which would make it hard for traffickers since the women have to show ID and speak with a government employee.
I suppose there would still be underground operations, but the market would shift from in the shadows to in the light, so to speak, reducing the demand for the illegal operations.
From what I hear about SEA, the really disgusting underage operations exist and I don't know what the solution is for that. As long as desire and blackmail exist there will always be a place for those, unfortunately.
That in itself is sketchy as ####.
Leaking to the public that the "raid" was tied to human trafficking in order to amplify the reach of the story was also sketchy, now that we have learned, based on current charges, there was no human trafficking in this case.
In an effort to embarrass famous people they have increased a distrust in law enforcement and claims of human trafficking. Which is a shame because there is a real issue of human/sex trafficking in the US and worldwide.
As for legalization, if it worked the way it does in places like Amsterdam and Aruba (so I hear), the workers are tested for STDs on a weekly basis, which would make it hard for traffickers since the women have to show ID and speak with a government employee.
I suppose there would still be underground operations, but the market would shift from in the shadows to in the light, so to speak, reducing the demand for the illegal operations.
From what I hear about SEA, the really disgusting underage operations exist and I don't know what the solution is for that. As long as desire and blackmail exist there will always be a place for those, unfortunately.
Oh, and I suppose it is par for the course, but the fact that Kraft will skate on these charges (which he is obviously guilty) due to elimination of ill gotten evidence is.................................... Well, I guess that is how the law works when you can afford a competent attorney.
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The much bigger issue here is the abuse by the police. Illegally installing cameras to watch people in bedrooms and record video which was threatened to be released publicly is about as big of a privacy and illegal search violation as I can imagine. Going to a rub and tug (assuming there aren't any trafficked or underage girls) is pretty minor in comparison. Yes, it helped to have competent lawyers and hopefully this case will serve as an example to protect all citizens. The system is not rigged, it worked as it should. Our constitutional protections are available to everyone, but unfortunately requires good lawyers. I applaud the work of the lawyers here, not just for protecting Kraft but to uncover abuses of power by the police.
ETA:. And I am in the majority who are sick of seeing the Patriots win.
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These type of sneak and peak warrants came out of the Patriot act (a bit ironic here) which was under the guise of protecting us against domestic terrorism, but the law was written to cover any federal crime. It is not commonly used as the intent was for terrorism, but has sometimes been used in drug dealing cases. The police in the case exaggerated and perhaps even lied to obtain the Warrant. The law was written way too loose and the police here are abusing the intent of the Patriotic act.
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pantherclub
Footballguy
I think any two bit lawyer could have won this case. It was flimsy from the jump. And the "crime" is something the majority of Americans do not care about. It was a business deal between 2 adults. The fake sex trafficking angle was just thrown in there as an attention grabber.
I am no lawyer, but this was some damn good lawyer work. I think the majority of lawyers take a plea agreement.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
If the police are doing something illegal why aren't they arrested and prosecuted? Seems like something the FBI should get involved in.
Most state and federal employees are not individually liable for such violations if they are doing their job. Nothing for the feds to do here. These are constitutional issues for the courts.
How much do you guys think it's "trumped up" charges vs powerless, scared women participating in an illegal activity are hesitant to cooperate and help make a case for the prosecution?
In these areas where it's a powerful man accused and a woman is the alleged victim, do you believe if the prosecutor isn't able to make a case then it must mean that nothing happened?
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
Are you asking an "in general" question or are you referring to the actual case involving Kraft? To the best of my knowledge, I have not seen anything to indicate that there was anything remotely resembling human trafficking going on at this particular massage parlor. If what has been reported is accurate and there isn't more information that has not been released, the women involved were well over age and doing whatever they were doing of their own free will.
In the Kraft case, I don't see the situation as involving "powerless, scared women." There are so many questionable things going on in this case that I am surprised it ever even got this far in the courts. Pick any of the following . . .
- Law enforcement was concerned that there was human trafficking going on . . . yet they observed for months and months (if they were that concerned, IMO, it is their duty to intervene and protect the women as soon as they suspected it and had any evidence to support it).
- They fabricated a bomb threat to install cameras, which invaded customers' inherent right to privacy (which is what the judge ruled).
- They recorded patrons without full disclosure (which goes against Florida State laws).
- They did not have probable cause to pull Kraft over for a traffic stop (and the officer allegedly said he would come up with a reason).
- They forced Kraft to produce identification on a traffic stop (when he wasn't driving).
- They conveniently waited until they caught a big fish in Kraft before coming forward with the case.
- Their first description of the case linked to Kraft to human sex trafficking . . . when no such charges were filed against anyone at that location (and the press ran with it).
That's the legal side of the case. Personally, whether Kraft or anyone else went in there and got services not on the regular menu of services is his or her own business. At this point, everyone has a pretty good idea what went on. Each of us can respond and react according to our individual beliefs in how much or how little we are outraged and how serious Kraft's involvement was.
As far as making a case with the women involved, if the charges are nothing more than misdemeanor solicitation charges, not sure how much the D.A.'s office can pressure the women into. Sure, the likelihood is that Kraft and the other men did something illegal as a minor infraction. Repeat offenders would get fined and community service and multi, multi time offenders could technically get a few months in jail. It's not like any of the people actually charged were up on hard core felonies or murder charges.
At this point, even if the D.A. were able to convince the women to testify against the johns, in Kraft's case, there is so much else out there that indicates law enforcement skirted the rules of procedure that assistance from the women may no longer be enough. From what I have read, it's starting to look like Kraft would have grounds to sue the state and local law enforcement. Again, how it got this far perplexes me, and I don't think having the best lawyers money could buy had anything to do with the outcome. And this has nothing to do with me being a Patriots fan. I would be saying the same thing if this happened to the owners of the Jets, Steelers, Broncos, Colts, etc.
And to also clarify, in other cases involving human trafficking, underage women, girls being forced to do things against their will, etc., I agree that there would be an element of the women being scared and powerless (and that the parties involved should be prosecuted on serious charges). But the Kraft case? To me it looks like a big waste of taxpayers money.
The other thing I found interesting in this case is the backlash against Kraft in the sports media and some folks wanting Draconian measures taken against him and the Patriots. I have seen opinions suggesting Kraft should be kicked out of the league, forced to sell the team, and NE should have been stripped of the entirety of their draft picks for the draft that just ended. Apparently very few media people bothered to research the league rules, as stripping the team of draft picks does not apply to an off field, non-competitive infraction. Similarly, I believe the most they can fine Kraft is $500,000. So essentially, the only real power Goodell has is to suspend Kraft. Jim Irsay got suspended for 6 games for multiple felony charges. Kraft was charged with two misdemeanors (which may ultimately get dropped). I'm not sure what the outcome will be on the NFL front, but I can't see it being worse than what Irsay got.
In general.
Way more interested in that than the Patriot Fans / Kraft apologists. If you don't think the women prostitutes were feeling powerless and scared after being caught up in this, I'm not sure what to tell you.
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