Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford said:
Your call if it’s solid.
Edit: sorry, link had junk in it. This is it:
http://www.ocfs.state.ny.us/main/reports/csec-2007.pdf
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Robert Kraft (yes, THAT Robert Kraft) charged with soliciting prostitution (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter IvanKaramazov
- Start date
Edit: sorry, link had junk in it. This is it:
http://www.ocfs.state.ny.us/main/reports/csec-2007.pdf
USA Today with an article.
It includes one big point. Answering the question of "what's next for these women if they stop doing this?
It's an important question. From the article:
It includes one big point. Answering the question of "what's next for these women if they stop doing this?
It's an important question. From the article:
NotSmart
Footballguy
What Kraft was supporting:
https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/crime/indian-river-county/2019/02/21/human-trafficking-florida-massage-parlors-vero-beach-sebastian/2920354002/
...
"These girls are there all day long, into the evening. They can't leave and they're performing sex acts," Currey said. "Some of them may tell us they're OK, but they're not. We know that… even though we may have charges on some of them, we'd rather them be victims."
...
Detectives watched the Orlando couple transport multiple women with suitcases to and from the spa, "for the purpose of sexual servitude," according to her arrest warrant.
Police said victims, identified in court records as Jane Does, lived inside the spas and worked as prostitutes. Some stayed for days, others for months.
None were allowed to leave on their own. They did not have their own vehicles and generally spoke Mandarin or Cantonese, not English.
...
Currey said many came from China on temporary work visas, indebted to the the brokers who helped them reach America, but believing legitimate jobs awaited them.
"Some of them are trying to make a better life for themselves," he said. "These people truly are stuck."
They were shamed, intimidated and taught not to speak to law enforcement or immigration officials.
Others answered what they thought were legitimate ads for masseuse jobs, but soon were pressured into doing more.
...
In December and January, deputies stopped men as they exited the spa after paying for sex acts.
"These 'johns,' either knowingly or unknowingly, were certainly supplying the funds to perpetuate human trafficking," Sheriff Deryl Loar said.
https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/crime/indian-river-county/2019/02/21/human-trafficking-florida-massage-parlors-vero-beach-sebastian/2920354002/
...
"These girls are there all day long, into the evening. They can't leave and they're performing sex acts," Currey said. "Some of them may tell us they're OK, but they're not. We know that… even though we may have charges on some of them, we'd rather them be victims."
...
Detectives watched the Orlando couple transport multiple women with suitcases to and from the spa, "for the purpose of sexual servitude," according to her arrest warrant.
Police said victims, identified in court records as Jane Does, lived inside the spas and worked as prostitutes. Some stayed for days, others for months.
None were allowed to leave on their own. They did not have their own vehicles and generally spoke Mandarin or Cantonese, not English.
...
Currey said many came from China on temporary work visas, indebted to the the brokers who helped them reach America, but believing legitimate jobs awaited them.
"Some of them are trying to make a better life for themselves," he said. "These people truly are stuck."
They were shamed, intimidated and taught not to speak to law enforcement or immigration officials.
Others answered what they thought were legitimate ads for masseuse jobs, but soon were pressured into doing more.
...
In December and January, deputies stopped men as they exited the spa after paying for sex acts.
"These 'johns,' either knowingly or unknowingly, were certainly supplying the funds to perpetuate human trafficking," Sheriff Deryl Loar said.
NotSmart
Footballguy
And just to get us all ready for what we know is inevitably coming down the road:
https://sports.yahoo.com/robert-kraft-story-no-laughing-202155631.html
Then Kraft will probably accept his inevitable suspension from the NFL while still trying to convince the public that, while he made a mistake, it does not define him. This will likely include a statement about not being “perfect” and apologizing to “anybody who was disappointed” and “working hard to earn back your trust.” He will say whatever he has to say, and pay a sizable fine or make a big donation, as long as the NFL lets him keep the Patriots.
https://sports.yahoo.com/robert-kraft-story-no-laughing-202155631.html
Then Kraft will probably accept his inevitable suspension from the NFL while still trying to convince the public that, while he made a mistake, it does not define him. This will likely include a statement about not being “perfect” and apologizing to “anybody who was disappointed” and “working hard to earn back your trust.” He will say whatever he has to say, and pay a sizable fine or make a big donation, as long as the NFL lets him keep the Patriots.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I guess what I'm trying to figure out is whether there were federales involved, because if they were then that usually indicates something bigger and across state or international lines. I was under the impression they were because the sheriff referred to the bust being multi-agency.
rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, there's no doubt that the official word doesn't sound good, and your point is taken.
I was just posting Elizabeth Nolan Brown because Reason has a pretty good track record of sussing out overcharging and false claims. She's been on the sex work beat for about five years and her initial presumption deserves consideration, IMHO.
But that's all anyone has right now -- an initial presumption. It could turn out that this is part of a massive slavery/trafficking ring, which would be abhorrent.
My own personal thoughts on the politics/desired policy towards prostitution is confused at best, so I was just adding a skeptic's voice to the thread rather than making a point or excuse for certain behaviors by certain parties.
sublimeone
Footballguy
These massage places are everywhere. Maybe the idea was to make a bust with big names involved to act as a deterrent for the rest of the country.
Judge Smails
Footballguy
What’s new is the use of cameras. I know that cops routinely make the rounds looking to bust parlors known for illicit activity. But never heard of them planting cameras. Almost seems unconstitutional. What about all of the people on tape getting undressed (men and women go to these massage places and extra services are the exception at the majority) and getting viewed on tape by a room full of officers while they look for the Kraft types?
25 men over 6 months? So how many were taped naked where nothing happened? So cameras in changing rooms ok too to stop potential theft?
25 men over 6 months? So how many were taped naked where nothing happened? So cameras in changing rooms ok too to stop potential theft?
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
The warrant for the camera's was procured through the Florida court system after they were able to show enough proof that they were required to continue to build the case. The camera's were installed in January of this year so it was not a 6 month video surveillance from what I understand.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Headlining one incident can deter things down the line. Right now there are guys not going to such places because they dont want to be part of the next story.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
No schtick here. How can you tell the difference between a legit asian massage parlor and one offering sex services? It seems like there is one in every strip mall on the east coast. They can't all be in there running prostitution, right?
I think most people use the internet to find them. I have seen forums before that have reviews on the establishment/ladies as well a prices for certain activities. There used to be a poster on :e: who had a long thread about it.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Ask for a licensed massage therapist. That’s the most likely way to avoid the illegitimate places.
If you’re seeing a “body worker” or going to a massage “parlor” or where they do “table showers” you’re much more likely to be in a place of ill repute.
comfortably numb
Footballguy
Ok.
Wtf is a table shower.
Is it as bad as i think it is?
Wtf is a table shower.
Is it as bad as i think it is?
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Also those places that place ads in the back of local free magazines.
Maybe look at the local health food or new age type mags instead.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
There are at least three lawyers on this board who have worked on cases involving human trafficking and/or forced prostitution.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Do you feel that all of these Asian massage parlors, or at least most of them, are involved in either human trafficking or underage girls?
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Also, “sex slavery” should be included with “human trafficking.”
sublimeone
Footballguy
There was one near a neighborhood I used to live in. The wife and I would make jokes about the place looking like the kind of place you could get a handy at. One day I decide to google the name of the place and it was listed on some kind of website that specialized in these types of services. It was complete with user reviewes etc... and this place was in fact one of “those” places. I’m guessing this is how the majority of the transactions begin.
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Judge Smails
Footballguy
I just finished a glorious 90 minute massage. Deep tissue, walk on back etc. I get the same therapist averaging every 2 weeks for last 5+ years. All of the therapists are Chinese. All are licensed. Tough laws in this city re that but we had a window where there was no limitation re # of massage businesses. So we must have 40 in town. Way too many.
FYI - I’ve never seen anyone even close to under age in these places. If anything they tend to be on the older side.
FYI - I’ve never seen anyone even close to under age in these places. If anything they tend to be on the older side.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
oh please. his son will take over as 'owner' and nothing substantial will happen to him at all.
comfortably numb
Footballguy
Where do we list the players/owners/executives who visit gentlemen clubs?
Do we start suspending players or taking draft picks away for these people that support this industry?
I mean, what these people support when they frequent these establishments is possibly on par or worse then the $79 parlors.
Unless Kraft was knowingly having relations with an underage boy/girl i think this will blow over rather quickly. March madness is upon us, after all.
Kraft will just be the butt of many jokes. Maybe a minor legal fine will be paid and Goodell will probably feel pressure to take some action and levy some punishment for the sake of apperances.
Rinse/repeat and onto the next shinny object that catches out attention for 15min.
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bigbottom
Footballguy
Perhaps. But if it does turn out that these women were living at the parlor, not allowed to leave, and not being paid (except to work off debt), then it’s a whole different ball game, IMO.
But to answer your question, if players are convicted of soliciting prostitution in a gentlemen’s club, I believe there should be repercussions.
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Nigel
Footballguy
Questions for all of the high and mighty in here...
Have you ever bought drugs (weed, coke, whatever) illegally? Then you are in support of and complicit with the murder of innocents by drug cartels.
Ever placed a sports wager with a bookie? Then you must be an enthusiastic supporter all of the bad things the mafia/organized crime does in society.
That's pretty much the leap you're all making.
Have you ever bought drugs (weed, coke, whatever) illegally? Then you are in support of and complicit with the murder of innocents by drug cartels.
Ever placed a sports wager with a bookie? Then you must be an enthusiastic supporter all of the bad things the mafia/organized crime does in society.
That's pretty much the leap you're all making.
That's a fair question. I don't know what percentage are legit /non-prostitution type places.Ramblin Wreck said:
bigbottom
Footballguy
Of course such consumerism ultimately supports those things, however indirectly or tangentially. It’s one of the most compelling reasons for legalizing weed, IMO. But if you are purchasing sex acts from a sex slave that has been human trafficked (which may not be the case here at all), the support is far more direct. It’s not a matter of being high and mighty, it’s a matter of understanding that your actions do indeed have consequences for others.
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
I was waiting for this post.
Drug cartels and the mafia sell drugs or gambling opportunities and use the money to support horrible organizations.
Human traffickers sell you the opportunity to rape a woman, intentionally or not.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
This is the hallmark of a legitimate establishment.Judge Smails said:
Nigel
Footballguy
High and mighty was the wrong term for me to use so generally, though it does apply to some of the takes in here.
If Kraft knowingly purchased sex act from someone he knew to be a sex slave, then yeah, that's repulsive and like you said far more direct.
If he did not know that to be the case, then as far as personal responsibility/morality goes it was much more analogous to an illegal drug purchase or wager. He participated in an act he knew to be illegal, where money was moving from his pocket into the hands of a shady operation, but he likely did not fully appreciate the wider implications.
I agree that it shouldn't happen anywhere. My point was that I think's wrong to think that human trafficking and/or sex slavery is the norm for most of these places.Leroy Hoard said:
I think it's more like Ramblin Dreck's coworker described. Mostly older gentlemen going in and getting a massage from an older (and willing) Asian woman. Yes, most of these places probably offer um...."releases"....but I doubt most of them allow intercourse.
That's all I'm saying. I just think this is being made into a bigger thing than it is. If there are any signs of sex slavery/human trafficking, yes, investigate it to the fullest but don't be mistaken and think this happens at every Asian Massage place.
bigbottom
Footballguy
It’s far more direct, whether he knew about it or not. I think we’ll have to wait to see if more facts come out about this case. But the initial reports of women living at the parlor and not being allowed to leave is concerning. As someone who has personally donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to causes committed to ending human sex trafficking, I would think Kraft might be more perceptive than the average person when it comes to the hallmarks of a sex trafficking operation, but who knows.
Nigel
Footballguy
I'm willing to assume the woman was a slave, little doubt about it.
My point is that when judging Kraft as a man, if he thought the woman was there voluntarily and receiving a cut of the action, as a bookie or drug dealer would, there is little difference when it comes to his intent. And I find it very hard to believe he went in there suspecting he was receiving services from a slave.
As far as his charitable donations go and how it relates to plausible deniability, I guess it would look better for him if he'd never given to such a cause? I don't know. I think it speaks more to the disconnect between rich guys and the real world. You'd think he'd connect the dots but I'm not surprised if he didn't.
My point is that when judging Kraft as a man, if he thought the woman was there voluntarily and receiving a cut of the action, as a bookie or drug dealer would, there is little difference when it comes to his intent. And I find it very hard to believe he went in there suspecting he was receiving services from a slave.
As far as his charitable donations go and how it relates to plausible deniability, I guess it would look better for him if he'd never given to such a cause? I don't know. I think it speaks more to the disconnect between rich guys and the real world. You'd think he'd connect the dots but I'm not surprised if he didn't.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Regarding the donations, while I don't know how it works today, Robert had very little to do with the day to day operations of his philanthropy organization in the past. That was always run by his late wife Myra.
There is a chance he had only passing knowledge of what types of donations his organization made to this cause.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
One of the ironic parts of this situation is that Kraft has always been very vocal about leaving a legacy for his kids and grand kids.
If things go badly from this point on, he could leave them a legacy they can never remove.
If things go badly from this point on, he could leave them a legacy they can never remove.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I know we talked about it early in the thread but I want to revisit this question. Please use the assumptions listed even if you don't agree they pertain to this case.
======
Assumptions:
1) You are rich and famous
2) You attended a massage parlor and used the extra services for a happy ending
3) you had absolutely no knowledge of sex trafficking or underage stuff at the establishment
Given these assumptions: After the news breaks, which of these do you choose as your immediate course of action?
a) "I am sorry to my family and friends. I was lonely and had a moment of weakness. I will cooperate 100% with the police investigation"
b) "I did nothing illegal"
I feel that while a) is harder, once you get out in front of it, the story has no where to go. b) gives you the chance of exoneration but I think the story lasts MUCH longer in the news and is like blood in the water for media who will dig and dig.
======
Assumptions:
1) You are rich and famous
2) You attended a massage parlor and used the extra services for a happy ending
3) you had absolutely no knowledge of sex trafficking or underage stuff at the establishment
Given these assumptions: After the news breaks, which of these do you choose as your immediate course of action?
a) "I am sorry to my family and friends. I was lonely and had a moment of weakness. I will cooperate 100% with the police investigation"
b) "I did nothing illegal"
I feel that while a) is harder, once you get out in front of it, the story has no where to go. b) gives you the chance of exoneration but I think the story lasts MUCH longer in the news and is like blood in the water for media who will dig and dig.
Probably depends a lot on what knowledge he has of evidence against him. If it's true about the video evidence (hidden cameras), he definitely should choose option A in your scenario.
jwb
Footballguy
I understand the thought process of "we're all guilty" if you increase the depth of the lens we use to view it. If you've looked at online porn, at some point, you almost certainly watched someone who was being exploited. Have you ever bought a diamond? Or the drugs and wagers you mention. The slave made sneakers and iphones? We're all guilty to a degree.
But each layer removed does make it somewhat different. Maybe that's awful to think/admit, but it does. It's the only way we can buy NIKE gear or a smartphone.
That all said, I also find it hard to believe that he had zero clue there was/is something amiss here. Just the fact that one could "buy" these types of sexual services for $59 should be a HUGE red flag that this isn't the girls' career choice by any stretch.
(HULK)
(Smash)
I'm pretty late to this party here on FBGs.
Only on page 3, but maybe it's been discussed already. I read the surveillance logs from the affidavit... it seems like many of the men they have on camera (~24ish I think) saw one of the two ladies who are charged as the traffickers who were supposedly running the spa.
I have no clue as to what was really going on there, but how come the majority of their evidence indicates the women in charge were frequently the ones servicing the clients? That doesn't remotely sound like trafficking, or people with stolen passports forced into slavery. Maybe that was the case for some of the unidentified women? Or, maybe the police are using the term "sex trafficking" more liberally than they should be and this was really just prostitution, and the media is running with it and making assumptions? I don't know, but if it is the latter, I honestly think it could be pretty damaging to future efforts to stop sex trafficking if this ends up blowing up in their face as not being what they're saying it is. With all of these rich and powerful people getting charged, I expect this to end up in court, and it could go very, very badly for the Jupiter PD in a number of ways.
For clarity's sake:
I abhor slavery, sex slavery, sex trafficking
I fully support the complete and total decriminalization of prostitution.
I believe the current situation in the US muddies the water so much that it is difficult to tell which is what, and that we should just grow up and decriminalize, focus our efforts and dollars on providing safety for the women who choose this profession and make it simpler to stop those exploiting and abusing and forcing other women into this life.
Only on page 3, but maybe it's been discussed already. I read the surveillance logs from the affidavit... it seems like many of the men they have on camera (~24ish I think) saw one of the two ladies who are charged as the traffickers who were supposedly running the spa.
I have no clue as to what was really going on there, but how come the majority of their evidence indicates the women in charge were frequently the ones servicing the clients? That doesn't remotely sound like trafficking, or people with stolen passports forced into slavery. Maybe that was the case for some of the unidentified women? Or, maybe the police are using the term "sex trafficking" more liberally than they should be and this was really just prostitution, and the media is running with it and making assumptions? I don't know, but if it is the latter, I honestly think it could be pretty damaging to future efforts to stop sex trafficking if this ends up blowing up in their face as not being what they're saying it is. With all of these rich and powerful people getting charged, I expect this to end up in court, and it could go very, very badly for the Jupiter PD in a number of ways.
For clarity's sake:
I abhor slavery, sex slavery, sex trafficking
I fully support the complete and total decriminalization of prostitution.
I believe the current situation in the US muddies the water so much that it is difficult to tell which is what, and that we should just grow up and decriminalize, focus our efforts and dollars on providing safety for the women who choose this profession and make it simpler to stop those exploiting and abusing and forcing other women into this life.
(HULK)
(Smash)
I think the majority of people make this assumption. However, the inverse is true. The police love to label things as sex trafficking that are not remotely. Something like 99% of prostitution stings don't actually catch any sex trafficking whatsoever. They just disrupt and ruin lives of consenting adults.
There is actual sex trafficking happening though. And if this sting hit upon it, that's fantastic. But typically, the current environment of laws and enforcement has created a black market where sex trafficking is happening at a much higher rate than if this was decriminalized. Trafficking and slavery would still be illegal, but if the rest of this black market were to vanish, the only thing left would be the criminals we all believe need to be caught, and they'd be much easier to catch.
(HULK)
(Smash)
But is it a bigger problem or a smaller problem?
There is actually a lot of thought on both sides of this issue. I'm still digesting it currently. My instincts tell me that decriminalization would result in lower instances of trafficking, but I'm still reading up on it.
I know that a decriminalization bill has been brought up in DC a few times, but it's still in committee. The Kraft event has reminded me to get a bit more educated on it, which I've been doing sporadically throughout the weekend.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Not responding to anyone in particular here but I don't think the historical objections to legalized prostitution in this country have centered mostly on concerns about human trafficking. And I think if we were to have a general national debate on the issue, the "moral" issues would take front and center for a vast majority of the electorate. All imho, of course.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I agree -- good post.
Also, if this sting turns out not to involve sex trafficking, we're all going to rue the missed opportunity to mock and ridicule Bob Kraft.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
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