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The Joker (w/ Joaquin Phoenix) (1 Viewer)

tonydead said:
I think he became the Joker when he killed his mother and realized his life wasn't a tragedy, but a comedy. He had no problems killing his friend after that and doing joker things on the Murray show. Also, I'm guessing he killed his neighbor lady imaginary girlfriend too but that part hit the cutting room floor. 
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I think it's at the end really.  Up until that point, he had been planning to shoot himself on the set.  But sometime before that, he snapped, and decided to create chaos.  I think it was his acknowledgement that society did this to him.  That society expects the mentally ill to behave as if they're not.  A society that does not value him, that cuts funding for medicine and therapy that helps him.  Society that, in the form of Wayne, calls him a clown and looks down on him.  In the form of those who kick him, who beat him, who mock him.  

 Society, as represented by the talk show host, who mocked and belittled him for their own gain, and it was at the point he shot the host, that he fully became Joker imo (or at least when he audibled and decided to shoot the host instead of himself).  It was when he fully wore the scorn society had for him (as typified by him asking DeNiro to call him by "Joker", because it was what he - high society - thought of him), and responded to it with chaos inducing violence.
 
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Just watched with one of my teenagers.  Joaquin Phoenix may be one of the best actors of my generation.   With that said the movie was not so much entertaining but more painful to watch at times.  Sort of like watching an episode of Jerry Springer.  Cringeworthy.   It was long and I would wait to watch at home. 

 
SHIZNITTTT said:
Just watched with one of my teenagers.  Joaquin Phoenix may be one of the best actors of my generation.   With that said the movie was not so much entertaining but more painful to watch at times.  Sort of like watching an episode of Jerry Springer.  Cringeworthy.   It was long and I would wait to watch at home. 
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I agree with most of this. Except the 2 hours didn't feel long to me. It was a gradual and purposeful build to full blown Jokerhood.

 
Are we doing spoilers still? My post is going to have some very light spoilers. So if you don't like spoilers don't read this post that doesn't really contain any spoilers, but kinda has some spoiling of themes.

I think it was objectively a really good movie that I have no desire to ever see again. I feel like I had a rock in my stomach the whole way. Getting glimpses of stuff I knew we were going to get, like him performing his stand-up and some of his delusions getting shattered, was cringe but in a good way. 

I think we'll definitely see his catchphrase from the climactic scene in a mass shooting manifesto. I think I agree with the people who say we can't let terrorists determine our entertainment, and I doubt anyone is killing anybody the weren't already going to kill without this movie, but it's 1000% showing up in some incel's forum post before he takes stuff out of control.

My only spoiler-y thing is I still don't really know what actually occurred and what was delusion. Lots of the delusion was super obvious. But until we saw basically the Batman origin story at the end, I assumed the protests, talk show, and climactic scene (and even petty things like Batman's dad and Alfred seeming like #####) were in his head. The final scene in the hospital makes me still think it kind of was. But from reading some of Todd Phillips (who has to get some kind of award for doing The Hangover and The Joker in the same career. Jesus. Two totally different movies), I'm wrong on all of that.

Good movie. I hated hit. Don't recommend, but I think you'll enjoy hating the 2 hours that will fly by if you decide to go.

 
What really hit me is that most of the stuff that happens with him, Im surprised it actually hasnt happened yet in real life. Especially the antagonist talk show part. It’s a crazy world. That’s where I could see part of the arguments about it inciting violence.

 
BroncoFreak_2K3 said:
What really hit me is that most of the stuff that happens with him, Im surprised it actually hasnt happened yet in real life. Especially the antagonist talk show part. It’s a crazy world. That’s where I could see part of the arguments about it inciting violence.
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I think that’s why Joker is probably the greatest villain of the comic genre...he’s the closest to realistic, and this movie certainly made him feel real

 
Well I really enjoyed this one a lot.  It was dark and depressing, but it was also kind of hopeful in a perverse way.  I found myself sympathizing for Joker more than anything else.  I love how the character comes to form- the laugh, the dance up and down the steps, the progression from an abused nobody to violent criminal.  I thought it was excellent.  

I noticed some people in the theater reacted viscerally to the extreme violence that takes place.  I’ve read stuff in passing about how this movie is the wrong time and place, how it could inspire mass shooters etc. 

I don’t think people would be concerned that this movie is giving light to revenge killing (or whatever you want to call it), if we didn’t infact live in a cruel system that paves the way for stuff like this.  I don’t take it as a real criticism of the movie.  In a sense it kind of vindicates why it would resonate the way it does.  

But I think that undercurrent has always been there with this character.  I don’t mean to make political beef out of it though, it’s a great movie and that’s all it is to me.  

Kind of cool- the fantastic OST is by the same person that did the score for Chernobyl.  

 
zoonation said:
Phoenix was great. 

Movie was meh
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I saw the first showing Friday morning. Maybe about 6 people and walking out they said it sucked. I was highly entertained. Once again, it isn't "Avengers" or even "Batman". It is grossly disturbing. The way it played itself out, is masterful. 

And the laugh still works in real life. The lady, "What are you making for dinner?" Insert Joker laugh. Which will become iconic. Or annoying. Gentlemen, it is quite the argument ender. 

Juvenile, yes. Effective, yes. 

Its a good movie.

 
Not your typical comic book movie as everything felt very real life. I mean, you could remove the joker character and you'd basically have the movie "Taxi Driver". 

Phoenix was amazing though. Loved his movements, his mannerisms, his dancing :lmao: . The evolution of the character was masterful, especially the laugh - it became more confident and more crazy. I also loved the evolution of his clown costumes with the final Joker outfit looking so badass and creepy.

The first 2 acts were good but they dragged a bit, the final act was fantastic. Will have to give this one another watch. 

 
Daughter is 16 and my wife and I asked her not to go see it. It’s definitely very disturbing in parts and she really doesn’t need to see it. She sees plenty of campy horror movies. I’m fine with that. This is just too realistic.

 
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I think the timing criticisms are way off.  Who would complain about a well-received novel that takes on these issues?  The film is art, and will live on outside of our current time (imo).

I found the plot, the characterization, to be way deeper than most movies go into these days.  Everything made sense.  All character actions, all plot developments.  There was really no point in the movie where I questioned whether they had sufficiently built to a specific point well enough to justify it being there (except for the moments that were his delusions, which resolved my concerns once that was made clear).

Overall, it was one of the best acted and best written movies I've seen in a while.  Very seldom do books have the sharpness or the quality of characters in a unique manner and depth that this movie did.  Just all around a high achievement.

And I agree with others, not a kid friendly movie.  Made me squirm, made me uncomfortable at times, but that's really what good art should do, that's what good writing can do.  And this movie delivered.  I'm probably going to watch it again, which is basically unheard of for me.  Most movies I wish I hadn't wasted my time on.  This one I keep wondering how I'll react if I see it again.

 
Another beef with the movie is that the Joker was suppose to be a very intelligent villain who went toe to toe with Batman. In many times, he was a step ahead. They definitely didn't portray him this way. They simply focused on the mental illness/abuse and how it drove him over the line.

 
eoMMan said:
Another beef with the movie is that the Joker was suppose to be a very intelligent villain who went toe to toe with Batman. In many times, he was a step ahead. They definitely didn't portray him this way. They simply focused on the mental illness/abuse and how it drove him over the line.
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Perhaps they set it up. And I completely agree. I also understand, this is a stand alone.

 
eoMMan said:
Another beef with the movie is that the Joker was suppose to be a very intelligent villain who went toe to toe with Batman. In many times, he was a step ahead. They definitely didn't portray him this way. They simply focused on the mental illness/abuse and how it drove him over the line.
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They certainly didn't portray him as intelligent, just mentally ill who evolves into the Joker. This was just the evolution of the character. He was embracing his inner self throughout the film. The movie wasn't about Joker, as much as it was about the person who became that.

 
BroncoFreak_2K3 said:
Daughter is 16 and my wife and I asked her not to go see it. It’s definitely very disturbing in parts and she really doesn’t need to see it. She sees plenty of campy horror movies. I’m fine with that. This is just too realistic.
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I didn't squirm as much as I was expecting. Perhaps that says I am de-sensitized myself.

 
eoMMan said:
Another beef with the movie is that the Joker was suppose to be a very intelligent villain who went toe to toe with Batman. In many times, he was a step ahead. They definitely didn't portray him this way. They simply focused on the mental illness/abuse and how it drove him over the line.
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Was thinking the same.  I'm guessing he "comes into his own" in the next film...you could sort of see it with his dialogue/confidence during the talkshow.  It would be more difficult to paint him as an antihero/sympathetic figure if he were intelligent at this preiliminary stage of his evolution.

 
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eoMMan said:
Another beef with the movie is that the Joker was suppose to be a very intelligent villain who went toe to toe with Batman. In many times, he was a step ahead. They definitely didn't portray him this way. They simply focused on the mental illness/abuse and how it drove him over the line.
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Remember in the end he went off his meds. Maybe that’s when he becomes a little more lucid. (He seems to be on the show). 

 
BTW I want to watch this again because I could swear in one scene I saw the car that was the old batmobile dismantles off to the side, and then I swear I saw like a Batman looking bobble head. Like little Easter eggs someone planted to screw with us. Or maybe I was just seeing things. 

 
This will be one of those movies that I really enjoyed but probably never watch again.  Lot to like.  Phoenix was incredible.  He better win something for that.

Wifes reaction, "that was terrible".

I knew she wouldn't like it but talked her into it anyway.

 
eoMMan said:
Another beef with the movie is that the Joker was suppose to be a very intelligent villain who went toe to toe with Batman. In many times, he was a step ahead. They definitely didn't portray him this way. They simply focused on the mental illness/abuse and how it drove him over the line.
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Todd Philips hinted that...

the final scene was meant to pose the question whether anything that happened to Fleck in the movie actually happened or if it was just all in his head. Supposedly Fleck laughs differently after replying "You wouldn't get it" than at any other part of the movie. He also brings up the question whether Arthur Fleck is the same person that becomes Batman's villain.
Expecting this to be about a comic book villain kinda misses the point.

 
TripItUp said:
Was thinking the same.  I'm guessing he "comes into his own" in the next film...you could sort of see it with his dialogue/confidence during the talkshow.  It would be more difficult to paint him as an antihero/sympathetic figure if he were intelligent at this preiliminary stage of his evolution.
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Perhaps this way of going about it, could lead him to take on Batman toe to toe. 

Whoops. May have quoted the wrong post.

 
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Holy F is this movie dark.  I liked it a lot and the acting by Phoenix is straight up a masterpiece, but those comparing it to Fight Club in terms of “darkness” are off base imo.  Fight Club had moments of levity, with the Joker there are none.  The movie legitimately has a “weight” to it that I’m not sure I’ve ever experienced before.  

 
This movie is garbage. Not because it's bleak or gritty or whatever. But rather because it's emotionally manipulative where every important plot point is insultingly contrived.

Why are three drunk upper class ##### bags on the subway risking felony assault charges on a clown because he's laughing too much? Because they HAVE to be to generate sympathy for the anti-hero and drive home the first instance of "rich/powerful BAD...you get what you deserve!" Oh, and they have to be white too, because if they were black it'd be too stereotypical. See? We messed with you're assumptions and turned that trope on it's ear! Isn't this movie clever?

Oh, and remember when you grew up with the Batman mythos and were taught that Thomas Wayne was a good guy, sadly murdered in a botched robbery? Ha-HA! Got you there too! Because he's a RichBad...he got what he deserved!

Spoiler criticism #1


Arthur is taken away from his abusive, insane mother and the latter is committed to Arkham. So when and why was she released, why is he back to taking care of her, and why does he not remember his abusive childhood? Because it HAS to be that way to generate sympathy for our anti-hero. Don't you feel sorry for this guy that not only didn't have a father but also had a crazy mother that lied to him about being adopted? Of course you do!
Spoiler criticism #2


Our nationally known Johnny Carson-esque night show host picked THIS failed stand up comic to highlight on his nationally watched show? And then later, SHOCKINGLY, the show instead gets a lot of positive feedback on his performance because...Why? Because it HAS to be that way to get him on the show so that a PowerfulBad can get what he deserves!

Oh did anyone check this guy we just met , that our host ridiculed on national TV thus giving him a motive for hate, for a weapon? No? Well, he probably doesn't have one. 
Spoiler criticism #3


And did you know that sexual frustration leads to men lashing out against women? You did? Cool, at least we don't have to actually show that part. We have SOME discretion you know.
There's more, I'm sure, but I'm forgetting I watched this movie as soon as I can.

To think that a movie this ham handed would be some clarion call to the disaffected to rise up is laughable and speaks to how real world elites really view the hoi polloi - as a bunch of animalistic, easily manipulated, empty headed savages. 

I HATED this movie. :rant:







 
Andy Dufresne said:
This movie is garbage. Not because it's bleak or gritty or whatever. But rather because it's emotionally manipulative where every important plot point is insultingly contrived.

Why are three drunk upper class ##### bags on the subway risking felony assault charges on a clown because he's laughing too much? Because they HAVE to be to generate sympathy for the anti-hero and drive home the first instance of "rich/powerful BAD...you get what you deserve!" Oh, and they have to be white too, because if they were black it'd be too stereotypical. See? We messed with you're assumptions and turned that trope on it's ear! Isn't this movie clever?

Oh, and remember when you grew up with the Batman mythos and were taught that Thomas Wayne was a good guy, sadly murdered in a botched robbery? Ha-HA! Got you there too! Because he's a RichBad...he got what he deserved!

Spoiler criticism #1


  Hide contents
Arthur is taken away from his abusive, insane mother and the latter is committed to Arkham. So when and why was she released, why is he back to taking care of her, and why does he not remember his abusive childhood? Because it HAS to be that way to generate sympathy for our anti-hero. Don't you feel sorry for this guy that not only didn't have a father but also had a crazy mother that lied to him about being adopted? Of course you do!
Spoiler criticism #2


  Reveal hidden contents
Our nationally known Johnny Carson-esque night show host picked THIS failed stand up comic to highlight on his nationally watched show? And then later, SHOCKINGLY, the show instead gets a lot of positive feedback on his performance because...Why? Because it HAS to be that way to get him on the show so that a PowerfulBad can get what he deserves!

Oh did anyone check this guy we just met , that our host ridiculed on national TV thus giving him a motive for hate, for a weapon? No? Well, he probably doesn't have one. 
Spoiler criticism #3


  Reveal hidden contents
And did you know that sexual frustration leads to men lashing out against women? You did? Cool, at least we don't have to actually show that part. We have SOME discretion you know.
There's more, I'm sure, but I'm forgetting I watched this movie as soon as I can.

To think that a movie this ham handed would be some clarion call to the disaffected to rise up is laughable and speaks to how real world elites really view the hoi polloi - as a bunch of animalistic, easily manipulated, empty headed savages. 

I HATED this movie. :rant:
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#Takesman

 
Andy Dufresne said:
One more thing, what 8 year old kid is going to just stand there and let a greasy stranger shove his thumbs in his mouth?
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the somewhat compelling theory that is not dismissed by the writer/director is that a vast majority of the story is made up in Joker’s mind and, essentially, that final scene of him at Arkham talking to social worker was the whole movie
 
That one guy said:
the somewhat compelling theory that is not dismissed by the writer/director is that a vast majority of the story is made up in Joker’s mind and, essentially, that final scene of him at Arkham talking to social worker was the whole movie
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Well that would be the most absurdly cynical thing you could possibly do to your audience. 

 
Andy Dufresne said:
One more thing, what 8 year old kid is going to just stand there and let a greasy stranger shove his thumbs in his mouth?
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Just saw it. Overall, I liked it. Didn’t love it, but liked it. I was expecting better. I was even expecting darker.

I had some of the same questions as you. But, I kept reminding myself that this is still a comic book movie. And it’s a comic book movie being told from the viewpoint of the bad guys. Not just bad guys, but a psychotic bad guy. That’s how I reconcile the Thomas Wayne story line. In the eyes of the psychotic, Wayne is a bad person. And a psycho can stir up the masses of the poor to think the same thing.

I’m not an expert on the Joker or Batman or comic books or cinema. I don’t really fully know the story lines. I haven’t even seen half of the DC movies. So take this all with a grain of salt. That’s just how I interpreted things as I was watching.

 
I think I would have liked to have seen less Thomas and Bruce. Just make it about Arthur, with fewer tie-ins to the DC world.

 
eoMMan said:
Another beef with the movie is that the Joker was suppose to be a very intelligent villain who went toe to toe with Batman. In many times, he was a step ahead. They definitely didn't portray him this way. They simply focused on the mental illness/abuse and how it drove him over the line.
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Joker was never more intelligent than Batman. He just had no rules or boundaries that get in his way. That made him unpredictable which always have Batman trouble. Riddler is smarter than Batman but too ### ####ed arrogant to be able to beat him.

This movie did a good job showing how a regular guy could have society #### on him so much that he just has enough and becomes a monster.

 
Insein said:
Joker was never more intelligent than Batman. He just had no rules or boundaries that get in his way. That made him unpredictable which always have Batman trouble. Riddler is smarter than Batman but too ### ####ed arrogant to be able to beat him.

This movie did a good job showing how a regular guy could have society #### on him so much that he just has enough and becomes a monster.
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Perfect. 

Mother...#### on him.

Thomas Wayne....#### on him.

System....#### on him.

Job...#### on him.

I would #### you guys up too.*

*Grain of salt, please.

 
Waingro said:
Not your typical comic book movie as everything felt very real life. 

Phoenix was amazing though. Loved his movements, his mannerisms, his dancing :lmao: . The evolution of the character was masterful, especially the laugh - it became more confident and more crazy. I also loved the evolution of his clown costumes with the final Joker outfit looking so badass and creepy.

The first 2 acts were good but they dragged a bit, the final act was fantastic. Will have to give this one another watch. 
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Watched it a second time last night, agree with all of this.  When he's finally come to form and is coming down the steps is probably my favorite part of the movie. 

In the beginning and middle of the movie, the steps are cast in a real dark way and Arthur has to slog uphill.  It's interesting how the lighting and mood of the movie shift once he becomes Joker.  

 
Otis said:
BTW I want to watch this again because I could swear in one scene I saw the car that was the old batmobile dismantles off to the side, and then I swear I saw like a Batman looking bobble head. Like little Easter eggs someone planted to screw with us. Or maybe I was just seeing things. 
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I've seen it mentioned that they made his name Arthur Fleck- A. Fleck-, as some sort of shot at Ben Affleck.  I doubt they'd do that for a movie with this much production value, but who knows?  

 
dkp993 said:
Holy F is this movie dark.  I liked it a lot and the acting by Phoenix is straight up a masterpiece, but those comparing it to Fight Club in terms of “darkness” are off base imo.  Fight Club had moments of levity, with the Joker there are none.  The movie legitimately has a “weight” to it that I’m not sure I’ve ever experienced before.  
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It's wild that The Hangover guy directed this.  There was some dark humor that I thought was hysterical on second watch-

-Joker talking to the cops and then faceplanting into the 'exit only' door.

-when Arthur murders Randall and there's blood splattered all over this face, then asks Gary if he watches the Murray Franklin show

But it is pretty bleak up until the end.  Most people aren't inclined to laugh given the weight of the movie
 
ren hoek said:
It's wild that The Hangover guy directed this.  There was some dark humor that I thought was hysterical on second watch-

-Joker talking to the cops and then faceplanting into the 'exit only' door.

-when Arthur murders Randall and there's blood splattered all over this face, then asks Gary if he watches the Murray Franklin show

But it is pretty bleak up until the end.  Most people aren't inclined to laugh given the weight of the movie
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Todd Phillips did a biopic or a documentary on G.G. Allin, notoriously anti-social punk rocker. It, too, was apparently very dark. Interesting cat, Todd. 

 
ren hoek said:
I've seen it mentioned that they made his name Arthur Fleck- A. Fleck-, as some sort of shot at Ben Affleck.  I doubt they'd do that for a movie with this much production value, but who knows?  
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More likely after the kid from A Christmas Story that got his tongue frozen to the flagpole.

 
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