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The Joker (w/ Joaquin Phoenix)

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22 hours ago, ren hoek said:

Watched it a second time last night, agree with all of this.  When he's finally come to form and is coming down the steps is probably my favorite part of the movie. 

In the beginning and middle of the movie, the steps are cast in a real dark way and Arthur has to slog uphill.  It's interesting how the lighting and mood of the movie shift once he becomes Joker.  

Loved this scene as well. This whole movie is so tense and so uncomfortable, this is a scene where the we were able to relax for a bit. 

 

There was also a good chuckle in the theater when the midget could not reach the lock BUT this scene was not funny at all. This was a funny gag that evolved pretty quickly into the horrible realization that this guy is trapped with this monster.  

  

Edited by Waingro
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Thought it was good. Definitely not going to be for those that are there for all the comic book action.  If you are in that camp, you are going to think it's slow for sure.

Very big homage to the Scorsese flick King of Comedy, that was one of the main things running through my mind as I watched it.  This time Deniro playing the Jerry Lewis character and Phoenix the Deniro character.

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I saw this last night. I would put it in the masterpiece category. But it's dark, dark, dark. One scene especially is unnerving. I mean people were squirming. And even though it's R rated, it's not a blood and gore flick. I would say the R rating comes from the subject matter and a couple F bombs.

Juaqin Phoenix deserves an Oscar. He won't get it because it's a comic book movie (not really) but he deserves one. 

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I loved it

I did take my 13 year old. I avoided any news about this movie so I had no idea the level of violence. When the violence happened I was certainly in shock and wondering how the kid was taking it, We talked about it after and he told me he has seen worse on the internet. Out of the frying pan and into the fire as they say. My kid seems to be fine with it but I'm not so sure that is a good thing or says much about my parenting skills when it comes to what the kids see.

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22 hours ago, tommyboy said:

I saw this last night. I would put it in the masterpiece category. But it's dark, dark, dark. One scene especially is unnerving. I mean people were squirming. And even though it's R rated, it's not a blood and gore flick. I would say the R rating comes from the subject matter and a couple F bombs.

Juaqin Phoenix deserves an Oscar. He won't get it because it's a comic book movie (not really) but he deserves one. 

Didn't somebody win it for this same role?

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Saw it again.  Didn't diminish my enjoyment of the movie at all, as I enjoyed it again.  It's more of a ride, than a destination as most movies are all about the destination.

On second viewing, a thing or two made more sense to me than the first time I watched it.

For example, the first time I watched it I assumed when he was on the Murray show, it was a flashback to a time he was in the audience and it was formative, and he was thinking back on it favorably while watching in bed with his mom.  On second viewing it became more obvious that it was a hallucination/delusion due to the fact that Murray references the super rat problem that was on the TV news right before his show came on.  If it was a flashback, that wouldn't have happened.  Missed it the first time, but at that point in the movie the version of reality being presented wasn't in much question.

I only started to question it in the first movie when he went to kiss his neighbor and she let him in.  Seemed completely unrealistic and out of place, but the movie just went with it so I, slightly uncomfortable suspending disbelief, went with it until it was explained to be a delusion, at which point my discomfort resolved itself, but I totally had forgotten about that news clip and the show.  I did wonder why there wasn't more familiarity with Murray, either in person, or when showing his standup material, with the fact that he'd personally met this guy before, but let it go too.

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Wow. That was dark. Joker makes Apocalypse Now look like The Muppet Movie.

Phoenix was incredible, as usual. He does mental illness so well it's hard to watch. This is a movie about the social safety net and the abandoning of the mentally ill. We have a huge population of mentally ill homeless in my city, and I see a lot of people on the street that should be hospitalized. 

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Dark and disturbing sums it up. Enjoyed it.

Was surprised to see people bring their kids - like 12 & 13 yr olds. A lot of them on this school holiday.

This is not a movie for kids imo.

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I had the day off today and finally made it to the theater to see this one.  Loved it.  Between this and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, I've gotten to see my two favorite movies of the last several years practically back to back.

I'll need more time to think all of this through, but obviously this is a movie made specifically for the Trump years.  It kind of clubs you over the head with the Resist signs, one of which was held upside down the same way Arthur was holding his sign upside down in the beginning of the film, which I'm sure was intentional but not sure on the meaning.  And the fact that the murderous insane guy in clown makeup lectures the audience on how nobody is civil to one another anymore.  

I remember seeing comments about how this is kind of an "incel" movie, and I have to say I kind of agree to some degree.  There is no way Arthur could attract a girl like the one in the apartment building, and it seems like literally everybody who joins the clown army is a male.  (Could be wrong about that part).  When Arthur is pulled from the police car toward the end, it's very deliberately presented as a metaphorical birth/delivery, and he's brought into the new world by two guys, not a woman.  I could probably go on and on with the psychosexual themes of the film -- that bath scene -- but Arthur's maleness is a critical and meaningful part of his character.

As others noted, I love the way that when he goes off his meds, it makes him happier and turns him more fully into who he really is.  Again, the film is not subtle about it when Arthur literally throws away the mask -- it's right after that that he's (again literally) introduced to the (literal) world as Joker. 

Full disclosure: I was highly biased to like this movie.  I'm not a huge fan of the superhero genre, but I like new twists on things.  A super-villain origin story told in the same manner as Taxi Driver with a hard R rating?  Yes, please.  But this really delivered and exceeded the high expectations that I had going in.  I'll definitely buy this one when it's available for purchase.   

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On 10/11/2019 at 10:13 AM, Andy Dufresne said:

This movie is garbage. Not because it's bleak or gritty or whatever. But rather because it's emotionally manipulative where every important plot point is insultingly contrived.

Why are three drunk upper class ##### bags on the subway risking felony assault charges on a clown because he's laughing too much? Because they HAVE to be to generate sympathy for the anti-hero and drive home the first instance of "rich/powerful BAD...you get what you deserve!" Oh, and they have to be white too, because if they were black it'd be too stereotypical. See? We messed with you're assumptions and turned that trope on it's ear! Isn't this movie clever?

Oh, and remember when you grew up with the Batman mythos and were taught that Thomas Wayne was a good guy, sadly murdered in a botched robbery? Ha-HA! Got you there too! Because he's a RichBad...he got what he deserved!

Spoiler criticism #1

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Arthur is taken away from his abusive, insane mother and the latter is committed to Arkham. So when and why was she released, why is he back to taking care of her, and why does he not remember his abusive childhood? Because it HAS to be that way to generate sympathy for our anti-hero. Don't you feel sorry for this guy that not only didn't have a father but also had a crazy mother that lied to him about being adopted? Of course you do!

 

Spoiler criticism #2

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Our nationally known Johnny Carson-esque night show host picked THIS failed stand up comic to highlight on his nationally watched show? And then later, SHOCKINGLY, the show instead gets a lot of positive feedback on his performance because...Why? Because it HAS to be that way to get him on the show so that a PowerfulBad can get what he deserves!

Oh did anyone check this guy we just met , that our host ridiculed on national TV thus giving him a motive for hate, for a weapon? No? Well, he probably doesn't have one. 

 

Spoiler criticism #3

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

And did you know that sexual frustration leads to men lashing out against women? You did? Cool, at least we don't have to actually show that part. We have SOME discretion you know.

There's more, I'm sure, but I'm forgetting I watched this movie as soon as I can.

To think that a movie this ham handed would be some clarion call to the disaffected to rise up is laughable and speaks to how real world elites really view the hoi polloi - as a bunch of animalistic, easily manipulated, empty headed savages. 

I HATED this movie. :rant:

 

 

 

I'm a big fan of your body of work, but I really disagree with this.  Rather than go point by point -- for example, to note that Arthur was robbed and beaten up by black hoodlums in the beginning of the film -- I think the main thing to note is that we're not supposed to sympathize with Arthur.  He's insane and evil.  I mean, he's Joker so insane and evil are just assumed.  The story of the movie as I took it is that of course Joker is a cancer on society, but today's society is built to create this sort of person.  In other words, it's social critique.

(I'm sure there are viewers who end up on Team Joker just like there are Breaking Bad viewers on land on Team Walt and Sopranos viewers who sign on for Team Tony.  But those people all misinterpret their own source material).

Edit: Also, the "no father" thing isn't meant to be a sympathy-builder.  It's a huge part of the social critique and generally unsettling element of the movie.  Arthur doesn't have a male role model, and he clearly longs for one.  For lack of a father in the house, he views Murray as a father, which is what makes his "betrayal" such a big deal for him.  And of course with no father around, he apparently sleeps in the same bed as his mother, bathes her, etc.  You like Fight Club!  How can you not like the suggestion that maybe it's a bad thing that male kids grow up with no male role models??!!1!

Edited by IvanKaramazov
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Arthur literally sleeps with his mother (non-sexually presumably) and kills his metaphorical father.  Why couldn't somebody come up with a story this satisfying before today?

Edited by IvanKaramazov
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8 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

Didn't somebody win it for this same role?

Yeah, unfortunately he had to die to win.  

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Also, the use of Rock and Roll Part 2 in that particular part of the films works on a couple of different levels.  For people of our age, that song is the universal signal that "the game is about to start now."  Which of course it does.  But also, it's a song that Homer Simpson plays in his head, which is a reference that I would expect people of our age to also get, and that's highly relevant in this context.  

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1 hour ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Arthur literally sleeps with his mother (non-sexually presumably) and kills his metaphorical father.  Why couldn't somebody come up with a story this satisfying before today?

Nothing Oedipal about it at all.

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2 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

 

I remember seeing comments about how this is kind of an "incel" movie, and I have to say I kind of agree to some degree.  There is no way Arthur could attract a girl like the one in the apartment building, and it seems like literally everybody who joins the clown army is a male.  (Could be wrong about that part).  When Arthur is pulled from the police car toward the end, it's very deliberately presented as a metaphorical birth/delivery, and he's brought into the new world by two guys, not a woman.  I could probably go on and on with the psychosexual themes of the film -- that bath scene -- but Arthur's maleness is a critical and meaningful part of his character.

But he didn’t attract a girl like the one in the apartment.  It was a complete delusion.

Also, unrelated to IK, it took me two viewings to fully understand that the Joker views murder, death, and chaos as humor/funny, and questions who are we to determine what is humor as it’s subjective.  So essentially his MO is to kill and create chaos because he finds it humorous, after all when he discovered his life was a comedy and not a tragedy, it was literally during the act of killing his mom.  
 

Just a great and interesting movie.  Well balanced on all sides, character, plot, motives, psychology, acting, music, editing...just a killer movie.

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9 minutes ago, adonis said:

But he didn’t attract a girl like the one in the apartment.  It was a complete delusion.

Yeah, I know.  That's the point.

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14 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Yeah, I know.  That's the point.

So I must be missing what you’re saying.  Why does that make it incel to some degree?

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9 minutes ago, adonis said:

So I must be missing what you’re saying.  Why does that make it incel to some degree?

Because Arthur could never have a relationship with a girl like that in real life.  That sort of relationship could only exist in his imagination.

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3 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I'm a big fan of your body of work, but I really disagree with this.  Rather than go point by point -- for example, to note that Arthur was robbed and beaten up by black hoodlums in the beginning of the film -- I think the main thing to note is that we're not supposed to sympathize with Arthur.  He's insane and evil.  I mean, he's Joker so insane and evil are just assumed.  The story of the movie as I took it is that of course Joker is a cancer on society, but today's society is built to create this sort of person.  In other words, it's social critique.

(I'm sure there are viewers who end up on Team Joker just like there are Breaking Bad viewers on land on Team Walt and Sopranos viewers who sign on for Team Tony.  But those people all misinterpret their own source material).

Edit: Also, the "no father" thing isn't meant to be a sympathy-builder.  It's a huge part of the social critique and generally unsettling element of the movie.  Arthur doesn't have a male role model, and he clearly longs for one.  For lack of a father in the house, he views Murray as a father, which is what makes his "betrayal" such a big deal for him.  And of course with no father around, he apparently sleeps in the same bed as his mother, bathes her, etc.  You like Fight Club!  How can you not like the suggestion that maybe it's a bad thing that male kids grow up with no male role models??!!1!

There's a gigantic difference between Fight Club and the Joker.

The Narrator in FC brings on his own insanity because of his personal choice in selfish acts of materialism, hedonism, and nihilism. He's pathetic because he has choice and chooses poorly. Walter White is a similar case - cancer might have pushed him in a certain direction but most of his misery was brought on by his own actions.

Arthur OTOH is such a transparently manipulative character. Everything he's is is because of the fault of someone else - including you, by extension, in the audience. That's because the movie incorporates every possible way that society could cause harm, so you're ensured to be complicit in his fall.

I disagree that this iteration of Joker "just is" insane and evil, as you said. Here, he "just wants to make people laugh" and take care of his mother. But for all the evils of society he'd have remained that way. But noooooo...society is evil, EEEVILLLLL! And Arthur is just the result of it.

I don't find it disturbing at all - it's just one of the least subtle, ham fisted, contrived movies of all time. It's a lobotomized Taxi Driver.

Edited by Andy Dufresne

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6 hours ago, jdoggydogg said:

Wow. That was dark. Joker makes Apocalypse Now look like The Muppet Movie.

Phoenix was incredible, as usual. He does mental illness so well it's hard to watch. This is a movie about the social safety net and the abandoning of the mentally ill. We have a huge population of mentally ill homeless in my city, and I see a lot of people on the street that should be hospitalized. 

Several political undertones:

1) mentall llness care

2) gun control

3) wealth inequality

4) degradation of values in society

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I am refusing to let my 14yo see this although he's asked.  

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The overtly critical comments here seem to not grasp the concept that the film is a derivative of a graphic novel, and therefore nothing about the plot development nor the characters should be "nuanced".  It's SUPPOSED to be over the top.

The film is not a masterpiece, but Phoenix is deserving of awards for his performance here.

If Christopher Nolan restored credibility to the DC universe in film by amping realism over the horrific nightmare that was 80's Batman movies, Joker takes this to 11.

Favorite scene: Arthur ranting to his father in the men's room asking why people can't be decent to one another, only to be punched in the face.

Confession: I laughed out loud when Robert DeNiro took a bullet to the face.

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30 minutes ago, SeniorVBDStudent said:

Favorite scene: Arthur ranting to his father in the men's room asking why people can't be decent to one another, only to be punched in the face.

I agree -- that was great.  

But I notice you view Thomas Wayne as Arthur's father.  When I was watching the film, I kept waiting for a moment when it was revealed that he actually was the father and the whole thing with the mom was orchestrated by the Wayne family, but IMO that was never even really hinted at.  Did I miss something?  (Very possible -- this is all based on one viewing).

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I think Arthur's mom was mentally ill and so she was dismissed from serving the Waynes. She never slept with Thomas and Arthur isn't his son.

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52 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I agree -- that was great.  

But I notice you view Thomas Wayne as Arthur's father.  When I was watching the film, I kept waiting for a moment when it was revealed that he actually was the father and the whole thing with the mom was orchestrated by the Wayne family, but IMO that was never even really hinted at.  Did I miss something?  (Very possible -- this is all based on one viewing).

There was no gotcha moment but Thomas’ note on the back of the picture at least had me thinking it was possible. 

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On 10/14/2019 at 3:31 PM, IvanKaramazov said:

Also, the use of Rock and Roll Part 2 in that particular part of the films works on a couple of different levels.  For people of our age, that song is the universal signal that "the game is about to start now."  Which of course it does.  But also, it's a song that Homer Simpson plays in his head, which is a reference that I would expect people of our age to also get, and that's highly relevant in this context.  

Uh, also Rock and Roll Part 2 was written by a pederast. Who did time.

Edited by rockaction

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On 10/14/2019 at 5:22 PM, Andy Dufresne said:

There's a gigantic difference between Fight Club and the Joker.

The Narrator in FC brings on his own insanity because of his personal choice in selfish acts of materialism, hedonism, and nihilism. He's pathetic because he has choice and chooses poorly. Walter White is a similar case - cancer might have pushed him in a certain direction but most of his misery was brought on by his own actions.

Arthur OTOH is such a transparently manipulative character. Everything he's is is because of the fault of someone else - including you, by extension, in the audience. That's because the movie incorporates every possible way that society could cause harm, so you're ensured to be complicit in his fall.

I disagree that this iteration of Joker "just is" insane and evil, as you said. Here, he "just wants to make people laugh" and take care of his mother. But for all the evils of society he'd have remained that way. But noooooo...society is evil, EEEVILLLLL! And Arthur is just the result of it.

I don't find it disturbing at all - it's just one of the least subtle, ham fisted, contrived movies of all time. It's a lobotomized Taxi Driver.

I think you are looking at this from a really weird perspective.  At the end of the day, the biggest takeaway is that Arthur is mentally ill.   The societal factors are just pushing him over the edge, he was already in a bad place.  Probably a place you are having trouble understanding.

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11 minutes ago, Jefferson the Caregiver said:

I think you are looking at this from a really weird perspective.  At the end of the day, the biggest takeaway is that Arthur is mentally ill.   The societal factors are just pushing him over the edge, he was already in a bad place.  Probably a place you are having trouble understanding.

Not just mentally ill but also suffered abuse as a child.  Bad mixture. 

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9 hours ago, Premier said:

There was no gotcha moment but Thomas’ note on the back of the picture at least had me thinking it was possible. 

This.  It was deliberately left ambiguous whether or not he was the father.  

The whole notion of ambiguity of culpability is prevalent through the whole film. 

There are instances where it is made plain that Arthur's actions cannot be explained away by "people suck".  As Bobby DeNiro says before he takes a bullet to the face "You don't know anything about me pal" (and therefore his subsequent murder cannot be excused because "life is hard for poor Arthur").

This lost on those who want to spin this as left wing "it's everyone else's fault" propaganda.  Painting a character as sympathetic does not equal forgiving his actions.

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On ‎10‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 3:53 PM, =Smackdown= said:

Dark and disturbing sums it up. Enjoyed it.

Was surprised to see people bring their kids - like 12 & 13 yr olds. A lot of them on this school holiday.

This is not a movie for kids imo.

Some ##### behind me brought two little girls. Maybe 4 and 6yrs old?

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1 hour ago, SeniorVBDStudent said:

This.  It was deliberately left ambiguous whether or not he was the father.  

It was?  After I initially thinking TW was his father, I thought it was made pretty clear that was not the case with all the delusional mommy stuff?

I mean, wasnt he also adopted?  

Unless TW went to great lengths to make a bigtime cover up.

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1 hour ago, Tecumseh said:

Some ##### behind me brought two little girls. Maybe 4 and 6yrs old?

Omg.  No way :shock: 

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24 minutes ago, ghostguy123 said:

It was?  After I initially thinking TW was his father, I thought it was made pretty clear that was not the case with all the delusional mommy stuff?

I mean, wasnt he also adopted?  

Unless TW went to great lengths to make a bigtime cover up.

I assumed Thomas Wayne coverup. 

Edited by Premier

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17 hours ago, ghostguy123 said:

It was?  After I initially thinking TW was his father, I thought it was made pretty clear that was not the case with all the delusional mommy stuff?

I mean, wasnt he also adopted?  

Unless TW went to great lengths to make a bigtime cover up.

I agree with you.  I didn't come out of this one thinking Thomas Wayne was the father.  

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1 hour ago, Jefferson the Caregiver said:

I agree with you.  I didn't come out of this one thinking Thomas Wayne was the father.  

Me neither.  Thought it got explained pretty clearly he wasn’t.  

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On 10/17/2019 at 7:19 PM, IvanKaramazov said:

I agree -- that was great.  

But I notice you view Thomas Wayne as Arthur's father.  When I was watching the film, I kept waiting for a moment when it was revealed that he actually was the father and the whole thing with the mom was orchestrated by the Wayne family, but IMO that was never even really hinted at.  Did I miss something?  (Very possible -- this is all based on one viewing).

It was left very open for the audience. Was it a cover up or was it just a mentally ill woman seeing a relationship where none existed much like Arthur did with his neighbor?

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On 10/13/2019 at 7:31 AM, sports_fan said:
On 10/6/2019 at 9:08 AM, sports_fan said:

I haven't seen the movie.

I’m thinking about watching it 

I have seen the movie

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Saw it. Good performance by Phoenix but not award winning. I kept thinking about Castaway and A Beautiful Mind. Story was meh.

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Saw it last night, thought it was great, not really something I’d ever want to see again though 

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After having seen it, a friend more familiar with the comic universe reminded me of a nuance and raised an interesting question, to me, about the ending. 

Since Joker has no origin story in the comics and it’s one aspect DC always seems to intentionally avoid to keep his mystique up, would people have been upset if, at the end, the “real” Joker would have come out of nowhere to kill Arthur? In absence of that, are we left to speculate that DC is saying Joker = Fleck? Is the plan to create the open ended speculation like this?

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On 10/18/2019 at 5:48 AM, Tecumseh said:

Some ##### behind me brought two little girls. Maybe 4 and 6yrs old?

Oof

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1 hour ago, Jayded said:

After having seen it, a friend more familiar with the comic universe reminded me of a nuance and raised an interesting question, to me, about the ending. 
 

  Hide contents

Since Joker has no origin story in the comics and it’s one aspect DC always seems to intentionally avoid to keep his mystique up, would people have been upset if, at the end, the “real” Joker would have come out of nowhere to kill Arthur? In absence of that, are we left to speculate that DC is saying Joker = Fleck? Is the plan to create the open ended speculation like this?

 

If that happened then what would be the point of the movie?

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5 hours ago, Jayded said:

After having seen it, a friend more familiar with the comic universe reminded me of a nuance and raised an interesting question, to me, about the ending. 
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Since Joker has no origin story in the comics and it’s one aspect DC always seems to intentionally avoid to keep his mystique up, would people have been upset if, at the end, the “real” Joker would have come out of nowhere to kill Arthur? In absence of that, are we left to speculate that DC is saying Joker = Fleck? Is the plan to create the open ended speculation like this?

 

I don't think this movie is set within the DC Movie U continuity.  For all intents and purposes, Jared Leto is the Joker in that franchise.

Obviously money talks and a sequel would be made if its right......but I was pretty sure this was just a one-shot that takes place somewhere in the DC Multiverse.

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1 hour ago, Thunderlips said:

I don't think this movie is set within the DC Movie U continuity.  For all intents and purposes, Jared Leto is the Joker in that franchise.

Obviously money talks and a sequel would be made if its right......but I was pretty sure this was just a one-shot that takes place somewhere in the DC Multiverse.

Todd Phillips said this joker will never face off with Batman, but I have to assume a joker sequel where he basically faces off with the cops could be drawn up. 

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Also Jared Leto and his joker are out of the DCEU I believe 

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That Harley Quinn trailer looked brutally bad imo 

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37 minutes ago, Capella said:

Todd Phillips said this joker will never face off with Batman, but I have to assume a joker sequel where he basically faces off with the cops could be drawn up. 

I think it all will depend on Phoenix.  Moneys money.....but they said he didn't want to do a role in the Marvel Universe because he didn't want to be locked into a character/role.  

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