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Dynasty: Miles Sanders - Eagles

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found this on NFL.com's scouting page posted before the Combine:

Quote

Weaknesses

Never eclipsed 51 rushing yards against Kentucky, Ohio State or Michigan

Needs to run with more plant-and-go mentality

Gets too cute in the hole at times

Lacks explosiveness and speed to the corner

Average access to burst after a cut

No home-run speed in open field

Doesn't separate from linebackers on wheel routes

Chip blocks lack commitment

Ball security appears to be an issue

not related to my question, but relevant to the various weakness notes above, from the same NFL.com page:

Quote


"He sees it well, but it looks like he's imitating Saquon (Barkley) with all the stop-start stuff he does. He doesn't have Saquon's go-go juice so he needs to be careful with all that stuff. Just trust your eyes and go. That's what I would tell him." -- Running backs coach for AFC team

 

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1 hour ago, Pigskin Fanatic said:

 

how bad is his ball security issues? did he have issues in college? i mean, does it matter if he's the shiftiest and fastest RB alive if he can't do this one thing?

i'm still looking for reasons to get excited about this kid for this season and so far i'm not getting there and i for one am glad to have howard and sproles signed. prospect for long term still looking good.

He definitely had fumble issues. I wouldn't hold a lack of 51 yards rushing against him. I was at that Michigan game, the PSU o-line was eaten alive by the Michigan d-line and their QB couldn't throw. It was a massacre. Penn State had a pathetic offense. Sanders is an explosive athlete with good size and pass catching skills. I think he has a real shot to be a good player. 

 

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2 hours ago, Pigskin Fanatic said:

 

how bad is his ball security issues? did he have issues in college? i mean, does it matter if he's the shiftiest and fastest RB alive if he can't do this one thing?

i'm still looking for reasons to get excited about this kid for this season and so far i'm not getting there and i for one am glad to have howard and sproles signed. prospect for long term still looking good.

Well his touch to fumble rate is relatively high compared to other RB and IIRC similar to Ameer Abdullah who has also struggled with protecting the football in the NFL.

According to this Sanders had 4 fumbles in 2016 on only 27 touches. Thats a lot.  Sanders didn't get the ball much in 2017 (because Barkley) and he only had one lost with 37 touches that year. Then in 2018 he had 5 fumbles with 244 touches.

All told he has fumbled the ball 10 times out of 308 touches.

Incidentally QB Daniel Jones seems to be the leader in fumbles over the last 3 college seasons.

I think it is more of an issue because Sanders had high fumble rates (relatively) in two different seasons.

Somewhat associated to this is the fact that Sanders had a poor catch rate and was not used as a receiver as much as Barkley. Again excuses are made for Sanders here where people will say it was a different offense or something. It was only different because Sanders is not as good as a receiver as Barkley. Well Barkley is great so thats okay right? Well his efficiency numbers (catch rate and yards per reception) in that area are below average for a RB.

Sanders has great change of direction ability however I think he is indecisive in how he runs. He is too paitent at times and I think he leaves yards on the field by not just hitting it and taking the yardage that is there. He does too much dancing. I am not the only person to have made this observation about him in 2018. To me he looks like he could have done more if he would just get downfield.

I think Jordan Howard is without question a better runner inside the tackles. So where does Sanders really fit in and excel above his competition?

I have little doubt that Sanders looks better than other RB in no contact where his speed and moves can shine. I do not think he has the vision or instincts that Howard and Clement have. If he can learn to play more like them, he could be a very good player. I am just not sure he actually puts it all together.

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18 hours ago, Biabreakable said:

Well his touch to fumble rate is relatively high compared to other RB and IIRC similar to Ameer Abdullah who has also struggled with protecting the football in the NFL.

According to this Sanders had 4 fumbles in 2016 on only 27 touches. Thats a lot.  Sanders didn't get the ball much in 2017 (because Barkley) and he only had one lost with 37 touches that year. Then in 2018 he had 5 fumbles with 244 touches.

All told he has fumbled the ball 10 times out of 308 touches.

Incidentally QB Daniel Jones seems to be the leader in fumbles over the last 3 college seasons.

I think it is more of an issue because Sanders had high fumble rates (relatively) in two different seasons.

Somewhat associated to this is the fact that Sanders had a poor catch rate and was not used as a receiver as much as Barkley. Again excuses are made for Sanders here where people will say it was a different offense or something. It was only different because Sanders is not as good as a receiver as Barkley. Well Barkley is great so thats okay right? Well his efficiency numbers (catch rate and yards per reception) in that area are below average for a RB.

Sanders has great change of direction ability however I think he is indecisive in how he runs. He is too paitent at times and I think he leaves yards on the field by not just hitting it and taking the yardage that is there. He does too much dancing. I am not the only person to have made this observation about him in 2018. To me he looks like he could have done more if he would just get downfield.

I think Jordan Howard is without question a better runner inside the tackles. So where does Sanders really fit in and excel above his competition?

I have little doubt that Sanders looks better than other RB in no contact where his speed and moves can shine. I do not think he has the vision or instincts that Howard and Clement have. If he can learn to play more like them, he could be a very good player. I am just not sure he actually puts it all together.

Also a new OC, new QB coach, new RB coach, new TE coach, no Mike Gesicki, DaSean Hamilton. However, I agree a large part is that Miles Sanders is not Saquon. They threw the ball 6 times less a game and averaged 1.5 yards per attempt less in 2018 than 2017. However, Penn State was a better rushing team in 2018. They ran the ball 5 times more a game and for 0.2 ypc more. I don't think there is any doubt Miles Sanders is nowhere near the receicing threat Barkley was. Sanders just seems average as a receiver. As a rusher, he was very competent. 

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18 hours ago, Biabreakable said:

Well his touch to fumble rate is relatively high compared to other RB and IIRC similar to Ameer Abdullah who has also struggled with protecting the football in the NFL.

According to this Sanders had 4 fumbles in 2016 on only 27 touches. Thats a lot.  Sanders didn't get the ball much in 2017 (because Barkley) and he only had one lost with 37 touches that year. Then in 2018 he had 5 fumbles with 244 touches.

All told he has fumbled the ball 10 times out of 308 carries.

I think it is more of an issue because Sanders had high fumble rates (relatively) in two different seasons.

Somewhat associated to this is the fact that Sanders had a poor catch rate and was not used as a receiver as much as Barkley. Again excuses are made for Sanders here where people will say it was a different offense or something. It was only different because Sanders is not as good as a receiver as Barkley. Well Barkley is great so thats okay right? Well his efficiency numbers (catch rate and yards per reception) in that area are below average for a RB.

Freshman year fumbles? I think you are reaching. Sanders' last year of 5 on 244 carries isn't bad at all, probably below Adrian Peterson's career fumble rate.

Most of your other comments have been debated already in this thread, and now we wait and see.:popcorn:

But I feel inclined to point out one thing about his pass catching: despite not having asked to do it at Penn st, his skill set translates well to receiving, what with his open field ability and quickness. A lot of running backs don't get the chance to catch passes in college, for whatever reason, but develope that part of their game in the pros.

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1 hour ago, cloppbeast said:

Freshman year fumbles? I think you are reaching. Sanders' last year of 5 on 244 carries isn't bad at all, probably below Adrian Peterson's career fumble rate.

If it was just bad luck then why does he keep doing it?

If you think 5 out of 244 isn't bad then you are ignoring the fact that it is more than any other college RB.

I am not reaching here, you are just denying that this might be an issue.

Quote

Most of your other comments have been debated already in this thread, and now we wait and see.:popcorn:

But I feel inclined to point out one thing about his pass catching: despite not having asked to do it at Penn st, his skill set translates well to receiving, what with his open field ability and quickness. A lot of running backs don't get the chance to catch passes in college, for whatever reason, but develope that part of their game in the pros.

More denials. Same coaches same team same personnel.  Did not get used much as a receiver (relative to other college RB) not just Barkley) and his numbers as a receiver were below average. 

If he isn't going to earn the between the tackles role (howard) then he needs to make hay as the receiving RB right? That is what is hoped here correct? Well how is he going to do that if he is a below average receiving option? Shouldn't that be a strength to match such an expectation? He might be better at it than Howard? Howard is on a new team because his receiving chops are not that good. Sanders should be better than Howard as a receiver. I don't think anyone knows if he is though.

Jordan Howard in college had 24 receptions 261 yards 3 TD. Miles Sanders 32 receptions 193 yards 1 TD.

Hey he was a high draft pick of a good organization in need of a feature RB. He has some really good traits that I agree make sense to get him the ball as a receiver to make good use of them. Just don't tell me that I am reaching here by pointing out the truth just because it causes you umbrage.

Edited by Biabreakable

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7 hours ago, Biabreakable said:

If it was just bad luck then why does he keep doing it?

If you think 5 out of 244 isn't bad then you are ignoring the fact that it is more than any other college RB.

I am not reaching here, you are just denying that this might be an issue.

More denials. Same coaches same team same personnel.  Did not get used much as a receiver (relative to other college RB) not just Barkley) and his numbers as a receiver were below average. 

If he isn't going to earn the between the tackles role (howard) then he needs to make hay as the receiving RB right? That is what is hoped here correct? Well how is he going to do that if he is a below average receiving option? Shouldn't that be a strength to match such an expectation? He might be better at it than Howard? Howard is on a new team because his receiving chops are not that good. Sanders should be better than Howard as a receiver. I don't think anyone knows if he is though.

Jordan Howard in college had 24 receptions 261 yards 3 TD. Miles Sanders 32 receptions 193 yards 1 TD.

Hey he was a high draft pick of a good organization in need of a feature RB. He has some really good traits that I agree make sense to get him the ball as a receiver to make good use of them. Just don't tell me that I am reaching here by pointing out the truth just because it causes you umbrage.

We dont need to discuss this anymore. Wont be long until we get to watch it unfold anyhow.

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Saw Miles Sanders get some kick return work today.  ~Dave Zangaro

😫

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5 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

Down in practice. Trainers looking at foot. 

walked off on his own at least

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23 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

Down in practice. Trainers looking at foot. 

🤞

Jeff McLane Retweeted Jeff McLane

Sanders isn’t back in there, but he looks OK. Was bouncing around.

Edited by Amused to Death

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5 minutes ago, zeeshan2 said:

Miles Sanders got banged up and taken to trainer's tent but is now walking back toward practice with his helmet. They're almost finished for today. We'll see if he gets any more work.

https://twitter.com/RoobNBCS/status/1156952055271055360

 @Tim_McManus

FollowFollow @Tim_McManus

More

Practice is over. Sanders didn’t practice after going into medical tent but there wasn’t much left in the session.

8:44 AM - 1 Aug 2019

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Eagles stock up / stock down after the first full week of training camp practices

Stock up

• RB Miles Sanders: After Sanders missed the entirety of spring practices, there were valid concerns that he wouldn't have enough time to develop before the start of the regular season. After the first week of camp, however, he has put some of those concerns to bed, as he already looks like the best running back on the team. Running backs don't need much grooming before they can be good players in the NFL, and if I'm Doug Pederson, I'd just start him Week 1 and see if I have something special right off the bat. To note, I don't think he'll do that, but there's little doubt in my mind that Sanders will be the starter at some point during the season.

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I don’t doubt he’s the best Eagles RB, but can he pass pro? Is there any reason to think this won’t be another Philly Special RBBC? Every year Pederson has different backs, different reasons (injuries, trades, et so), but the results are the same.

2018 RB touches: 127 (Adams RB61), 115 (Smallwood RB45), 90 (Clement RB62), 50, 44

2017 RB touches: 181 (Blount RB45), 84 (Clement RB53), 80 (Ajayi RB39*), 60, 22

2016 RB touches: 168 (Matthews RB32), 146 (Sproules RB24), 83 (Smallwood RB73), 32, 22, 10

This year will be different though, right?

 

*split season MIA/PHI; touches are with Eagles, ranking is combined total

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18 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

I don’t doubt he’s the best Eagles RB, but can he pass pro? Is there any reason to think this won’t be another Philly Special RBBC? Every year Pederson has different backs, different reasons (injuries, trades, et so), but the results are the same.

2018 RB touches: 127 (Adams RB61), 115 (Smallwood RB45), 90 (Clement RB62), 50, 44

2017 RB touches: 181 (Blount RB45), 84 (Clement RB53), 80 (Ajayi RB39*), 60, 22

2016 RB touches: 168 (Matthews RB32), 146 (Sproules RB24), 83 (Smallwood RB73), 32, 22, 10

This year will be different though, right?

 

*split season MIA/PHI; touches are with Eagles, ranking is combined total

Yep but there are so many really smart fantasy experts who really like him this year. His ADP is 85th overall so it's not a pricey swing to take. The next RB in ADP is Hunt who is suspended half the year and won't even be the starter when he returns. The worry with Sanders is that if he does get to a spot where he is the clear feeature back, it might not be untill mid season and he could be a tough guy to roster for the opening month or so of the year. 

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21 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

I don’t doubt he’s the best Eagles RB, but can he pass pro? Is there any reason to think this won’t be another Philly Special RBBC? Every year Pederson has different backs, different reasons (injuries, trades, et so), but the results are the same.

2018 RB touches: 127 (Adams RB61), 115 (Smallwood RB45), 90 (Clement RB62), 50, 44

2017 RB touches: 181 (Blount RB45), 84 (Clement RB53), 80 (Ajayi RB39*), 60, 22

2016 RB touches: 168 (Matthews RB32), 146 (Sproules RB24), 83 (Smallwood RB73), 32, 22, 10

This year will be different though, right?

 

*split season MIA/PHI; touches are with Eagles, ranking is combined total

Pederson hasn't had a talented all around back as of yet. All of the above have been role players, good at either receiving or grinding but never both. Theory is, if he gets one he doesn't have to take off the field, just maybe he won't.

Some people question Sanders ability as a receiver though, so maybe he isn't as well rounded as we hope. Obviously one who believes in the talent would have more optimism and more imagination for the upside. You could argue the best case for Sanders is a heavy piece of a committee. On a great offense though, you could do worse.

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Quote

Eliot Shorr-Parks @eliotshorrparks

Both J.J. Arcega-Whiteside and Miles Sanders getting first-team snaps in 11on11 drills #Eagles

 

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Quote

NJ.com reports Miles Sanders has "easily been the most impressive runner" through the Eagles' first 10 training camp practices.

Earning "many" first-team reps, Sanders has been impressing the Eagles' press corps. It must be noted, however, that OC Mike Groh praised Jordan Howard's work in the passing game on Monday, especially his blitz pickup. Sanders is doing what he needs to do to earn work, but barring something going sideways, the Eagles are going to feature a Week 1 committee.

SOURCE: NJ.com

Aug 5, 2019, 4:12 PM ET

 

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1 hour ago, Choke said:

Corey Clement finally healthy and returns to get a little work in. :bag:

I’m not concerned about this at all. But if you can poison the Sanders owner in your league with this and get Sanders for a discount, get it

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On 8/6/2019 at 12:20 AM, Ilov80s said:
On 8/4/2019 at 10:08 PM, Iceman03 said:

https://twitter.com/jimmykempski/status/1158180313090207745?s=21

Apparently he’s tearing up the scrimmage tonight.

He had a McCoy level jump cut on a nice TD run

When people see him run in PS his ADP is going to shoot up. At the moment he’s RB35 going in the 8th, he’ll go past Montgomery into RB2 territory by the end of the month.

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7 hours ago, BobbyLayne said:

When people see him run in PS his ADP is going to shoot up. At the moment he’s RB35 going in the 8th, he’ll go past Montgomery into RB2 territory by the end of the month.

Yep he’s going to have an Ameer Abdullah jump in ADP. Hopefully he doesn’t have an Ameer Abdullah career.

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44 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Yep he’s going to have an Ameer Abdullah jump in ADP. Hopefully he doesn’t have an Ameer Abdullah career.

That one run in preseason though...

Actually, wasn’t it a swing pass? I’ve tried to block it from my memory.

Nothing will ever top David Wilson for preseason hype. Too bad he played for TC.

In that same vein, ball security or pass pro may be the only things that may be able to hold him back. Dude has fantastic jump cuts, great lateral quickness, he is clearly the best back on that roster, and he can catch. It’s a high powered offense that has never had a bell cow, but Sanders is more talented than any back Pederson has had.

We’re gonna learn a lot in the next couple weeks.

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1 hour ago, BobbyLayne said:

That one run in preseason though...

Actually, wasn’t it a swing pass? I’ve tried to block it from my memory.

Nothing will ever top David Wilson for preseason hype. Too bad he played for TC.

In that same vein, ball security or pass pro may be the only things that may be able to hold him back. Dude has fantastic jump cuts, great lateral quickness, he is clearly the best back on that roster, and he can catch. It’s a high powered offense that has never had a bell cow, but Sanders is more talented than any back Pederson has had.

We’re gonna learn a lot in the next couple weeks.

i think howard is still going to see the field a ton.  for this season

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8 minutes ago, need2know said:

i think howard is still going to see the field a ton.  for this season

Well he doesn’t offer much in the passing game. What do you foresee the split in the touches being?

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FTR I think Howard may get more carries, but Sanders FF points will dwarf his production.

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16 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

Well he doesn’t offer much in the passing game. What do you foresee the split in the touches being?

idk.  only thing i know is wentz being protected is a big deal and howard is better at pass pro at this point. 

depends on how much they trust sanders there. i thought along with the fumbling, pass pro was a weakness for him

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14 minutes ago, need2know said:

idk.  only thing i know is wentz being protected is a big deal and howard is better at pass pro at this point. 

depends on how much they trust sanders there. i thought along with the fumbling, pass pro was a weakness for him

Kind of typical (& genuine) non-elite rookie RB concerns. Obviously keeping Carson upright has to be a priority for them.

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On 7/31/2019 at 1:07 PM, cloppbeast said:

Sanders' last year of 5 on 244 carries isn't bad at all, probably below Adrian Peterson's career fumble rate.

I've been eyeballing this guy in some redrafts, but the fumbles scare me. @Biabreakable is correct, 5 fumbles in 244 is very high. That's one per 49 touches against college defenders. Peterson, in the NFL (couldn't easily find his college fumbles), was at one per 69, but that was largely due to the fact that he refused to go down. If Sanders can withstand tackles anywhere near as well as AP, then I'll forgive those fumbles. But that's doubtful.

Waldman seems high on Howard largely due to the fact that he thinks Sanders will take himself off the field with fumbles. I recall in the past, Waldman has noted trends in fumbles per touches and how long a guy hangs onto a job with different rates. I don't recall exactly, but I think roughly 1/50 = backup. 1/100 = starter.

That's not to say I'd write him off in dynasty. Tiki Barber turned around his fumbles. Then again, a lot of guys didn't. But there's a chance. Either way, I'm wary of him in redraft after closer inspection (never had a shot at him in my dynasty leagues so didn't give him much thought earlier).

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Just now, FF Ninja said:

I've been eyeballing this guy in some redrafts, but the fumbles scare me. @Biabreakable is correct, 5 fumbles in 244 is very high. That's one per 49 touches against college defenders. Peterson, in the NFL (couldn't easily find his college fumbles), was at one per 69, but that was largely due to the fact that he refused to go down. If Sanders can withstand tackles anywhere near as well as AP, then I'll forgive those fumbles. But that's doubtful.

Waldman seems high on Howard largely due to the fact that he thinks Sanders will take himself off the field with fumbles. I recall in the past, Waldman has noted trends in fumbles per touches and how long a guy hangs onto a job with different rates. I don't recall exactly, but I think roughly 1/50 = backup. 1/100 = starter.

That's not to say I'd write him off in dynasty. Tiki Barber turned around his fumbles. Then again, a lot of guys didn't. But there's a chance. Either way, I'm wary of him in redraft after closer inspection (never had a shot at him in my dynasty leagues so didn't give him much thought earlier).

people were worried about sony michels problems with fumbles too....he did great sesson 1 in nfl fumble wise.....this trait can be corrected  by coaching 

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3 minutes ago, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

people were worried about sony michels problems with fumbles too....he did great sesson 1 in nfl fumble wise.....this trait can be corrected  by coaching 

Can be, but isn't always. Thus it is a risk worth accounting for.

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I don’t want my RBs pass blocking, I want them out running routes

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2 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

I don’t want my RBs pass blocking, I want them out running routes

This gets overlooked too often in the "Can young RB pass block?" conversations.  If they're a dynamic pass-cather, putting them out in immediate routes is one way to mitigate that until the skill set improves.  Which isn't all bad.  If there's a vet coming in for every 3rd down, then owners have problems.  Not sure where Sanders is with that yet.

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FWIW.... Sproles will probably be the 3rd down back until Sanders proves he can pass black.  Sproles is still elite in that area... still has some shake and soft hands as well.

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5 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

I don’t want my RBs pass blocking, I want them out running routes

Yet Sanders isn't all that great as a receiver.

Do you think he can take that job from a healthy Sproles?

I don't. He needs to improve as a receiver in my view. Not sure if/when that will happen.

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Just now, Biabreakable said:

Yet Sanders isn't all that great as a receiver.

Do you think he can take that job from a healthy Sproles?

I don't. He needs to improve as a receiver in my view. Not sure if/when that will happen.

Isn’t Sproles Frank Gore’s uncle?

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Fumbles, pass blocking, to me are redraft problems. Not being contingent on innate ability, for dynasty you would sort of count on improvement in these areas.

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1 minute ago, BobbyLayne said:

Isn’t Sproles Frank Gore’s uncle?

Yep. Sproles might be done. I don't know.

I just see people penciling in Sanders for the receiving RB role and his college performance does not lead me to the same conclusion.

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Sproles last 50 catch season was 2016. I’ve always loved the player, but I don’t think anyone is counting on his rejuvenation. Might happen but seems on the low end of the range of outcomes spectrum.

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2 hours ago, Biabreakable said:

Yet Sanders isn't all that great as a receiver.

Do you think he can take that job from a healthy Sproles?

I don't. He needs to improve as a receiver in my view. Not sure if/when that will happen.

Sproles has played 9 games over the last 2 seasons with 22 catches. I am not very worried about him. I don't think we have proof he's been anywhere the same since the torn ACL and he 's 36 years old. 

 

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Sanders struggled with his blitz pick-up and allowed the sack to a DB that ended the drive on Phillys final offensive play of the first quarter. It was his final play.

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13 minutes ago, Choke said:

Sanders struggled with his blitz pick-up and allowed the sack to a DB that ended the drive on Phillys final offensive play of the first quarter. It was his final play.

Did you actually watch the play? That’s not at all what happened. Sanders picked up his block, right side between the guard and the tackle, maybe looked a little overwhelmed but was holding fine. The right tackle got manhandled and gave a ton of ground and an extra man hit the gap for the sack.

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1 minute ago, gabes1919 said:

 holding

Yeah, looked like he was holding on for dear life to me. And yes the RT was lost as they sent several people.

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