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737Max Needs a new media manager, and to stop crashing. (1 Viewer)

Who amongst us wouldn't like to flee to the Cleve and club up at the Flats or have lunch with Little Richard but we resist those urges. Because we have responsibilities.

 
Optional upgrades like bigger seats, better carpet and bathrooms, sure. Basic safety equipment? NOT OPTIONAL!

Boeing really ####ed up. It’s hard to even grasp what they were thinking. This is a billion dollar (lawsuit) mistake. At least.

 
Co-pilot "What does that flashing red light mean..check engine?, Pilot "That means we are going to crash in 60 seconds"

 
Jesus, this story keeps getting worse.  

edit: well, I mean except for the dead people part.  That won't get better.

 
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I mean why is a system that automatically puts a plane into a nosedive even a thing?  Can stalls happen without the pilot's knowing?  

 
Bucky86 said:
Your car is prone to overheating and blowing up. There's an optional package of $2,000 to install an engine temperature gauge to alert you before it overheats.
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At least Tesla charges you $5000 extra for an auto pilot feature that will kill you

 
Bucky86 said:
Could somebody explain this like I'm 5? Is the thing that's makes the plane crash a feature? What's the purpose of this? If it's a feature, why is it necessary to have optional safety equipment that alerts you to this feature?
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A little too complex.  That podcast is great and explains it on a very good level. 

Eli5 they moved the engines up and made them more heavy. To make the plane more stable while climbing or descending it allows the back elevators to point(down in this case but could happen the other way while landing) in the direction of a stall more quickly than a pilot would otherwise.

 
Apple Jack said:
Haven't had time for the podcast. So it's not a result of bad airspeed readings?
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The podcast was only like 20 mins but here's the cliffs: The new plane as bigger engines that are closer to the front of the plane.  The engine placement pushes the plane upward as compared to previous models.  Instead of retraining all of the pilots, Boeing added software to compensate for the upward motion by pushing the plane down.  The software in the crashes are believed to have reacted on bad data.  Boeing never told the pilots the software existed.  During the two crashes, the pilots were likely fighting the software and not flying conditions.

 
Arizona Ron said:
The podcast was only like 20 mins but here's the cliffs: The new plane as bigger engines that are closer to the front of the plane.  The engine placement pushes the plane upward as compared to previous models.  Instead of retraining all of the pilots, Boeing added software to compensate for the upward motion by pushing the plane down.  The software in the crashes are believed to have reacted on bad data.  Boeing never told the pilots the software existed.  During the two crashes, the pilots were likely fighting the software and not flying conditions.
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This is by far the biggest crime in this story.

It cost airline companies a lot of money to train their pilots on new models. Therefore, it's not very cost efficient to buy a new model that requires training, especially when they can buy an upgraded model from Boeing's competitor without needing to retrain their pilots. So in order to keep up with the market, Boeing adds corrective software so pilots don't need training and doesn't feel it's necessary (profitable) to inform the pilots. Corporate greed killed these people.  

 
What's more is they said on the news last night that companies could buy planes with two safety dilly-dally's, or one.  With two obviously being safer but at a slightly higher cost.  American and Delta ordered planes that had both.  United, being United, ordered the cheaper planes.

Someone else can explain how the dilly-dallys work exactly, but they are outside on each side of the nose and transmit info.  And two are better than one, United.

 
This keeps getting worse.  Pilot was not trained to fly the 737MAX yet.  Very similar to the 737 in terms of flying but had the new automated systems that the flight crew had no idea how to disengage.   Horrible.

Reported all US pilots had to get training to fly the new MAX with updated systems.

ADDIS ABABA (Reuters) - The captain of a doomed Ethiopian Airlines flight did not get a chance to practice on his airline’s new simulator for the Boeing 737 MAX 8 before he died in a crash with 157 others, a pilot colleague said.

Captain Yared Getachew, 29, was due for  training at the end of March, his colleague told Reuters, two months after Ethiopian Airlines had received one of the first such simulators being distributed.

The March 10 disaster, following another MAX 8 crash in Indonesia in October, has set off one of the biggest inquiries in aviation history, focused on the  new automated system and whether crews understood it properly.

In both cases, the pilots lost control soon after take-off and fought a losing battle to stop their jets plunging down.

The MAX, which came into service two years ago, has a new automated system called MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System). It is meant to prevent loss of lift which can cause an aerodynamic stall sending the plane downwards in an uncontrolled way.

 
The other thing that's amazing is how the Indo crash would've happened on the same plane's prior flight instead, as was reported early on, but I didn't know it was an off-duty Captain that saved the day.  He happened to be flying jump-seat in the cockpit and knew how to correct the problem.  My god, what are the chances?  Those passengers should be sending that guy birthday presents for life.

 
Da Guru said:
This keeps getting worse.  Pilot was not trained to fly the 737MAX yet.  Very similar to the 737 in terms of flying but had the new automated systems that the flight crew had no idea how to disengage.   Horrible.

Reported all US pilots had to get training to fly the new MAX with updated systems.

ADDIS ABABA (Reuters) - The captain of a doomed Ethiopian Airlines flight did not get a chance to practice on his airline’s new simulator for the Boeing 737 MAX 8 before he died in a crash with 157 others, a pilot colleague said.

Captain Yared Getachew, 29, was due for  training at the end of March, his colleague told Reuters, two months after Ethiopian Airlines had received one of the first such simulators being distributed.

The March 10 disaster, following another MAX 8 crash in Indonesia in October, has set off one of the biggest inquiries in aviation history, focused on the  new automated system and whether crews understood it properly.

In both cases, the pilots lost control soon after take-off and fought a losing battle to stop their jets plunging down.

The MAX, which came into service two years ago, has a new automated system called MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System). It is meant to prevent loss of lift which can cause an aerodynamic stall sending the plane downwards in an uncontrolled way.
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Interesting. So does this absolve Boeing?

 
Apple Jack said:
Interesting. So does this absolve Boeing?
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Probably not.  You would think any plane delivered should come with training for safety. They have to find out if it is a flaw in the system..or because the pilots did not know about or how to use the new system first.

Another puzzling event was the day before the crash a pilot who was catching a ride in the jump seat saved the same plane from crashing by disengaging the automated system..why was not that reported.  Was it like the piltos saying "Oh..I did not know you could do that?'  Or that they did not even know that new system was a part of the software?

 
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Arizona Ron said:
The podcast was only like 20 mins but here's the cliffs: The new plane as bigger engines that are closer to the front of the plane.  The engine placement pushes the plane upward as compared to previous models.  Instead of retraining all of the pilots, Boeing added software to compensate for the upward motion by pushing the plane down.  The software in the crashes are believed to have reacted on bad data.  Boeing never told the pilots the software existed.  During the two crashes, the pilots were likely fighting the software and not flying conditions.
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What's still not totally clear to me is that some of the things I've read make it seem like the corrective software is actually wrong because it's getting bad data from sensors. Which seems like a seriously big problem. First that sensors are giving bad data and secondly that the software is acting on that bad data. 

To then not have trained the pilots and make them aware that the software even exists is insane.

 
Garuda Airlines In Indonesia just cancelled a $6bn Boeing order. This fiasco will go down as the biggest, most expensive safety ####up in history. To the point of questioning whether Boeing survives.

 
Jobber said:
Garuda Airlines In Indonesia just cancelled a $6bn Boeing order. This fiasco will go down as the biggest, most expensive safety ####up in history. To the point of questioning whether Boeing survives.
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No way the US govt allows Boeing to fail.

 
GroveDiesel said:
No way the US govt allows Boeing to fail.
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Thought on the US acquiring Boeing and operating as a government owned company?  There's only two real air plane makers in the world.  

 
GroveDiesel said:
Would think more of a bailout ala General Motors.
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Doubtful considering the amortization of an airplane vice car.  The market just doesn't move as fast with a company that makes 20 year assets.

It's not like the housing market where the buyers can't pay, or the cars that have other options.  It's either Boeing or Airbus. 

Boeing will fix the software, do the training and bounce back fine.    

 
Rodrigo Duterte said:
What's more is they said on the news last night that companies could buy planes with two safety dilly-dally's, or one.  With two obviously being safer but at a slightly higher cost.  American and Delta ordered planes that had both.  United, being United, ordered the cheaper planes.

Someone else can explain how the dilly-dallys work exactly, but they are outside on each side of the nose and transmit info.  And two are better than one, United.
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They read air flow from different points on the plane.  There are also air speed indicators internal to the avionics as well.

The problem it would seem is that Boeing mis-represented the extent to which MCAS would lean on single air flow indicators if there was just one present.  

These air flow indicators fail somewhat often, they were implicated in the Air France crash as well.  

 
culdeus said:
They read air flow from different points on the plane.  There are also air speed indicators internal to the avionics as well.

The problem it would seem is that Boeing mis-represented the extent to which MCAS would lean on single air flow indicators if there was just one present.  

These air flow indicators fail somewhat often, they were implicated in the Air France crash as well.  
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How is the second one even considered “optional”?  The old survivalist saying “2 is 1, 1 is none”.   

If Boeing made a car would standard equipment be one brake caliper up front, and cost more if you want them on both wheels?

 
Sputnikv8 said:
How is the second one even considered “optional”?  The old survivalist saying “2 is 1, 1 is none”.   

If Boeing made a car would standard equipment be one brake caliper up front, and cost more if you want them on both wheels?
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There are 0 on the embrair type jets.  Those jets built in the late 90s lack an auto-throttle and are flown nearly completely by hand.  The automation of pilot actions and/or lack thereof is a function of the airline to determine what is appropriate.  

This analogy isn't exactly perfect.  It's much more similar to offering a AWD feature set for a car, then having the traction control behave differently but they don't mention this in the manual or suggest driver awareness.  

 
@WJXTvic: BREAKING: Plane down in St. Johns River near NAS Jacksonville. Sources tell me it landed on runway then went off into river. Appears to be 737 size. Jax Fire, Police, Mayor have been notified. We’re en route. @wjxt4

@WJXTvic: BREAKING: Plane down in St. Johns River is commercial jet with 136 passengers and 7 crew members per my sources. Skidded off runway into water per @NASJax_ spokeswoman.

 
Not sure what a commercial jet is doing at NAS Jax. Possible emergency landing gone bad???  (Conjecture on my part )

NAS Jax is roughly 15 miles  from JIA.

 
Not a great look for Boeing. Boeing Employees Mocked F.A.A. and ‘Clowns’ Who Designed 737 Max

Stupid employee emails still remain, after over 20 years, a lawyer's best friend and worst nightmare, depending on which side you're on.

• “Would you put your family on a Max simulator trained aircraft? I wouldn’t,” one employee said to a colleague in an exchange from 2018, before the first of two deadly 737 Max crashes.

• “This airplane is designed by clowns, who are in turn supervised by monkeys,” an employee wrote in an exchange from 2017.

• One employee, upon learning that pilots of an earlier 737 model didn’t need flight simulator training for a 737 Max, wrote, “You can be away from an NG for 30 years and still be able to jump into a MAX? LOVE IT!!”
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I remember right when the second crash happened there was a huge push to discredit CNN as being alarmist on this topic.  Wouldn't shock me to see that Russia was behind it for some reason.     

 
Jobber said:
Some jabroni started a thread akin to “What Dies Liberal CNN Have Against Boeing?!?11”
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It was everywhere.  As if a lot of Russian bots cried out in the night for the mouth breathers to zoom in on this moment of weaknrss.

 
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