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Bucky86

Christchurch, New Zealand; Terrorist Attack

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To be fair, facts seem to have a left bias these days.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

I read an article somewhere saying thats the exact reason 4channers started flooding the internet with tons of these pictures- to make liberals look paranoid and overly sensitive and thus to allow most people to brush it off.

Wonderful.  Must be true... 

You guys do your crusade.  That hand sign is so common half the country will end up as racists.  You go get ‘em.

Edited by jonessed
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3 minutes ago, jonessed said:

I don’t give a ####.  #### him.  If you want to let him troll you then fine.  My problem is with you taking that fishing line and crusading around with it like a lie detector test. That doesn’t help.

We are going to agree to disagree here. If I see a new picture of a bunch of “Proud Boys” smiling flashing the sign then I am going to assume they either condone that form of terrorism or at least find humor in it. “Trolling” doesn’t absolve one from what they are they saying or doing. 

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2 minutes ago, jonessed said:

Wonderful.  Must be true... 

You guys do your crusade.  That hand sign is so common half the country will end up as racists.  You go get ‘em.

You argue it’s just trolling and then when we discuss the history of it as a troll you dismiss that as well???

Anyway, I’m out of here. Sorry to muck it up. Have a good weekend. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

We are going to agree to disagree here. If I see a new picture of a bunch of “Proud Boys” smiling flashing the sign then I am going to assume they either condone that form of terrorism or at least find humor in it. “Trolling” doesn’t absolve one from what they are they saying or doing. 

You don’t need a hand signal to define “Proud Boys”.  We know what they are. The purpose of a “secret” hand signal is to identify someone that is hiding it.  We’ve seen what that does.  It creates a social media firestorm that starts labeling innocent people as closet racists.  That doesn’t help solve racism.  It’s counter-productive.

Edited by jonessed

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, mcintyre1 said:

They aren't becoming violent out of thin air. You see no value in trying to curb the ideology that creates them? 

Ideology/religion doesn't make people violent.

Humanity can be violent.

Ideology/religion/nationalism/hate, etc... just tools to manipulate or hide behind or use.  It isn't the source of the violence, it is an excuse.

Edited by matuski
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18 minutes ago, moleculo said:

To be fair, facts seem to have a left bias these days.

This is why prominent goppers want to replace them with feelings. See Gingrich, Newt

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9 minutes ago, matuski said:

Ideology/religion doesn't make people violent.

Humanity can be violent.

Ideology/religion/nationalism/hate, etc... just tools to manipulate or hide behind or use.  It isn't the source of the violence, it is an excuse.

Very much disagree with this sentiment. You can't seriously believe that there hasn't ever been a single person who went from being a "normal" person who had never committed violence, or had the desire to commit violence, to one who did from the effects of "Ideology/religion/nationalism/hate" -- there are simply too many examples throughout history for you to believe that to be true. 

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24 minutes ago, jonessed said:

Wonderful.  Must be true... 

You guys do your crusade.  That hand sign is so common half the country will end up as racists.  You go get ‘em.

The progressive crusaders already think half the country is racist anyway.   Not sure why they need to dredge up hand conspiracies to make themselves feel better.  But whatever gets you through the day!

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, mcintyre1 said:

Very much disagree with this sentiment. You can't seriously believe that there hasn't ever been a single person who went from being a "normal" person who had never committed violence, or had the desire to commit violence, to one who did from the effects of "Ideology/religion/nationalism/hate" -- there are simply too many examples throughout history for you to believe that to be true. 

The history of our species is a pretty good case study in favor of my position.

Doesn't seem to be that hard to manage the killing of a few or hundreds or thousands or even millions for any number of excuses.  Religion, politics, ideology, natural resources, ethnicity.... endless list.

 

Edited by matuski

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23 hours ago, Henry Ford said:

Not even from New Zealand.  An Australian decided to chime in with that.

The mass murderer is Australian.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, moleculo said:

To be fair, facts seem to have a left bias these days.

Oh puh_leeze.  The left is still driven by emotion.  In this thread we have people calling to shut down Fox News, strict gun control, and racially profiling any group which seemingly support policies which align with white nationalist.  The percentage may look scary and this particular attack was especially tragic, but the overall numbers of these types of terrorist attacks are pretty small in a country of hundreds of millions of people.   Let's trash the first, second, fourth and fourthtenth  amendments because of an attack in New Zealand. 

Edited by jon_mx

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25 minutes ago, tonydead said:

The mass murderer is Australian.

See if they only had a wall.  /Trump. 

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1 hour ago, jonessed said:

Yes.  He is trolling you.  I don’t want to see people playing a game, making “A-OK” signs, or someone resting a hand awkwardly on TV become instant Internet racists.  Next thing you know CNN will have natural hand position experts on staff analyzing photos.  That doesn’t help anything.

If you want to freak out over it, then feel free to do so. I think it’s ridiculous.

One if the known and obvious tactics by fringe or extremist groups is to take an accepted sign and turn it into a sign of their group so that they can’t be prosecuted, persecuted, or held responsible for using it.  

Of course it means “Ok” or “3 pointer.”  But now it also means this.  And the issue is in figuring out when it means this. 

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18 hours ago, EYLive said:

I don't understand how these acts help the white supremacists' agenda.
Is the aim to kill every non-white in the world? Be the most feared race on earth? What does this accomplish other than make people hate your group more than they already do?

What Henry said, but expounded upon: The manifesto repeats "It's the birthrates." three times in the very beginning.   They think other races are immigrating into their western lands reproducing at a faster rates than whites that will ultimately lead to ethnic, cultural and racial replacement.  White genocide.

While very racist it goes on to answer question whether he hates Muslims or foreigners and he says that he does not.  He wishes all peoples of the world their best as long as they don't seek to come into his people's lands, replace his people or make war.  

He was asked when the tipping point was that made him resort to violence:

Quote

There was a period of time 2 years prior to the attack to the attack that dramatically changed my views.The period of time was from, beginning of April,2017 until the end May,2017. In this time period a series of events broke down my own reserves, my reservations, my cynicism and revealed the truth of the Wests current situation. These events turned my thoughts from pursuing a democratic, political solution and finally caused the revelation of the truth, that a violent, revolutionary solution is the only possible solution to our current crisis.I was travelling as a tourist in Western Europe at the time, France, Spain Portugal and others.The first event that begun the change was the terror attack in Stockholm, on the 7th of April 2017. It was another terror attack in the seemingly never ending attacks that had been occurring on a regular basis throughout my adult life. But for some reason this was different. The jaded cynicism with which I had greeted previous attacks didn’t eventuate. Something that had been a part of my life for as long as I could remember, cynicism in the face of attacks on the West by islamic invaders, was suddenly no longer there. I could no longer bring the sneer to my face, I could no longer turn my back on the violence. Something, this time, was different.
That difference was Ebba Akerlund.Young, innocent and dead Ebba.Ebba was walking to meet her mother after school, when she was murdered by an Islamic attacker, drivinga stolen vehicle through the shopping promenade on which she was walking. Ebba was partially deaf, unable to hear the attacker coming.Ebba death at the hands of the invaders, the indignity of her violent demise and my inability to stop it broke through my own jaded cynicism like a sledgehammer.  I could no longer ignore the attacks. They were attacks on my people, attacks on my culture, attacks on my faith and attacks on my soul. They would not be ignored.

 

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Oh puh_leeze.  The left is still driven by emotion.  In this thread we have people calling to shut down Fox News, strict gun control, and racially profiling any group which seemingly support policies which align with white nationalist.  The percentage may look scary and this particular attack was especially tragic, but the overall numbers of these types of terrorist attacks are pretty small in a country of hundreds of millions of people.   Let's trash the first, second, fourth and fourthtenth  amendments because of an attack in New Zealand. 

Bold - that would be doing exactly what the terrorist wants:

Quote

I chose firearms for the affect it would have on social discourse, the extra media coverage they would provide and the affect it could have on the politics of United states and thereby the political situation of the world.The US is torn into many factions by its second amendment, along state, social, cultural and, most importantly, racial lines.With enough pressure the left wing within the United states will seek to abolish the second amendment, and the right wing within the US will see this as an attack on their very freedom and liberty.This attempted abolishment of rights by the left will result in a dramatic polarization of the people in the United States and eventually a fracturing of the US along cultural and racial lines.

ETA:

Quote

Won’t your attack result in calls for the removal of gun rights from Whites in the United states?Yes, that is the plan all along, you said you would fight to protect your rights and the constitution, well soon will come the time.

 

Edited by tonydead

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Posted (edited)
On 3/15/2019 at 8:09 AM, Dedfin said:

Nope. The right owns this. The right owns all of this.

Were/are you a conservative?

Quote

No, conservatism is corporatism in disguise, I want no part of it.

ETA:

Were/are you "right wing"?

Quote

Depending on the definition, sure.

Were/are you "left wing"?

Quote

Depending on the definition, sure.

ETA2:

After a long rant about conservatives:

Quote

Not a thing has been conserved other than corporate profits and the the ever increasing wealth of the 1% that exploit the people for their own 
benefit.Conservatism is dead. Thank god. Now let us bury it and move on to something of worth.CONSERVATISM IS DEAD, THANK GOD.

No long winded rant against liberals.

Edited by tonydead

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1 hour ago, jonessed said:

Wonderful.  Must be true... 

You guys do your crusade.  That hand sign is so common half the country will end up as racists.  You go get ‘em.

You know who else had a common hand sign........

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1 hour ago, mcintyre1 said:

Very much disagree with this sentiment. You can't seriously believe that there hasn't ever been a single person who went from being a "normal" person who had never committed violence, or had the desire to commit violence, to one who did from the effects of "Ideology/religion/nationalism/hate" -- there are simply too many examples throughout history for you to believe that to be true. 

Yeah it’s nonsensical to say ideology or religion doesn’t make people violent. 

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On 3/15/2019 at 8:12 AM, supermike80 said:

You guys want to make it Trump's fault.  So be it.  Not an argument I want to have and not one I agree with.  But if you feel that way, then fine by me

Were/are you a supporter of Donald Trump?

Quote

As a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose? Sure.  As a policy maker and leader? Dear god no.

lol

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27 minutes ago, tonydead said:

Were/are you a conservative?

ETA:

Were/are you "right wing"?

Were/are you "left wing"?

 

Racism is not a conservative attribute. 

Nationalism is not a conservative attribute. 

The Republican Party, under the leadership of Donald Trump, has chosen to move away from certain aspects of traditional conservatism toward a more nationalist approach. I don’t know why they have chosen to do this. I don’t like it. 

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Three people whom he calls "High Profile Enemies" and calls for their assassination:

Angela Merkel

Recep Tayyip Erdoğan

Sadiq Khan

😧

 

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Just now, tonydead said:

Three people whom he calls "High Profile Enemies" and calls for their assassination:

Angela Merkel

Recep Tayyip Erdoğan

Sadiq Khan

😧

 

Just link instead of editorializing

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1 minute ago, msommer said:

Just link instead of editorializing

I did twice.  Links to it keep getting taken down.

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That's most of the political highlights of the manifesto.  In addition to the plan for democrats to push gun control and the second amendment to cause a racial division in the US he believes that eventually Texas will turn democratic upsetting the electoral college so that democrats start to effortlessly win every election.  As this happens and guns are taken away is when he thinks "they" can revolt and start the civil war that will allow whites to reclaim the US.  He calls it boiling over the melting pot.

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3 minutes ago, tonydead said:

democrats start to effortlessly win every election.  As this happens and guns are taken away 

Not that this is the only disconnect with this guy (that manifesto has tons of them) but this particular assumption is shared by a whole lot of otherwise reasonable conservatives that I personally know. And it’s just wrong. 

If, for fantasy purposes, Democrats of the most progressive variety controlled 100% of the membership of the House and Senate (picture in your mind 535 AOCs) AND the Presidency, AND all 9 members of the Supreme Court, they STILL wouldn’t start seizing people’s guns. 

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

Not that this is the only disconnect with this guy (that manifesto has tons of them) but this particular assumption is shared by a whole lot of otherwise reasonable conservatives that I personally know. And it’s just wrong. 

If, for fantasy purposes, Democrats of the most progressive variety controlled 100% of the membership of the House and Senate (picture in your mind 535 AOCs) AND the Presidency, AND all 9 members of the Supreme Court, they STILL wouldn’t start seizing people’s guns. 

Sounds like that's something some reasonable conservatives have in common with non conservative neo-facist terrorists then. 

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Exactly Tim, and here is where there is such a disconnect. People act like if there ever was a movement to take guns that only the GOP would fight this. Do they not understand how many Democrats also own guns as well? I work with many self proclaimed liberals--at least 75% of them have CCWs. 

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6 minutes ago, Courtjester said:

Exactly Tim, and here is where there is such a disconnect. People act like if there ever was a movement to take guns that only the GOP would fight this. Do they not understand how many Democrats also own guns as well? I work with many self proclaimed liberals--at least 75% of them have CCWs. 

To be fair, many reasonable liberals seem to assume that if conservatives took over the House, Senate, and Presidency without any opposition, we’d turn into The Handmaid’s Tale. 

One of the main problems with our current politics is that so many of us think the other side hates us. That has to be one of the major contributing factors to crazies like this one. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

To be fair, many reasonable liberals seem to assume that if conservatives took over the House, Senate, and Presidency without any opposition, we’d turn into The Handmaid’s Tale. 

One of the main problems with our current politics is that so many of us think the other side hates us. That has to be one of the major contributing factors to crazies like this one. 

One of the worst trends has been deflections against political arguments as being motivated by ‘Obama hate’ and ‘Trump hate’. Seems to be an attempt at killing the debate altogether. But if a politician ever raises ‘hate’ as a defense or rallying cry that would indeed be demagoguery.

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2 hours ago, timschochet said:

I don’t know why they have chosen to do this. I don’t like it. 

Tradeoff of principle for power.

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3 hours ago, timschochet said:

To be fair, many reasonable liberals seem to assume that if conservatives took over the House, Senate, and Presidency without any opposition, we’d turn into The Handmaid’s Tale. 

One of the main problems with our current politics is that so many of us think the other side hates us. That has to be one of the major contributing factors to crazies like this one. 

You don't think that gays or minorities are hated in this country?  Or that they vote conservative?

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, jon_mx said:

Oh puh_leeze.  The left is still driven by emotion.  In this thread we have people calling to shut down Fox News, strict gun control, and racially profiling any group which seemingly support policies which align with white nationalist.  The percentage may look scary and this particular attack was especially tragic, but the overall numbers of these types of terrorist attacks are pretty small in a country of hundreds of millions of people.   Let's trash the first, second, fourth and fourthtenth  amendments because of an attack in New Zealand. 

Ill agree that he left is driven by emotion if you acknowledge that the right is driven by irrational fear.  Fear of foreigners crossing the border, fear of jobs going over seas, fear of crime, fear of Muslims, fear of change.  When you get down to it, almost everything the right stands for is rooted in irrational fear (pro-life being an exception).

Edited by moleculo
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1 hour ago, Flying Spaghetti Monster said:

You don't think that gays or minorities are hated in this country?  Or that they vote conservative?

No I don’t. Not in significant numbers. Very very few Americans actually hate minorities. Even less hate gay people. 

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4 hours ago, timschochet said:

To be fair, many reasonable liberals seem to assume that if conservatives took over the House, Senate, and Presidency without any opposition, we’d turn into The Handmaid’s Tale. 

They’d sure as hell try.

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See that is where we differ, I do not think they are very few, and I think this rhetoric is drawing more and more into there numbers.  We have klan rallies and a president who says there are good people on both sides, so being in a right wing hate group is not longer a disqualifier for someone being a good person?  

 

 

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6 hours ago, Courtjester said:

Exactly Tim, and here is where there is such a disconnect. People act like if there ever was a movement to take guns that only the GOP would fight this. Do they not understand how many Democrats also own guns as well? I work with many self proclaimed liberals--at least 75% of them have CCWs. 

then why are almost every bill put forth on gun control Democrats and not Republicans ?

 

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

No I don’t. Not in significant numbers. Very very few Americans actually hate minorities. Even less hate gay people. 

dang we agree on something ! 

the time for racism and sexism is over and gone ........... 

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27 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

then why are almost every bill put forth on gun control Democrats and not Republicans ?

 

Because the two sides too often fall back onto whatever pleases the base and they worry about their jobs more than policies. Also, more and more the politics in Washington don't reflect the wishes of the people.

  The same reason a R would be slow to back a gun control bill is a similar reason a D would be slow to come out in support of closing the borders.

 

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2 hours ago, moleculo said:

Ill agree that he left is driven by emotion if you acknowledge that the right is driven by irrational fear.  Fear of foreigners crossing the border, fear of jobs going over seas, fear of crime, fear of Muslims, fear of change.  When you get down to it, almost everything the right stands for is rooted in irrational fear (pro-life being an exception).

Politics is mostly fear.   The right fears communism, Muslim extremism, illegal immigration, etc.   The left fears racism, nationalism, global warming, etc.   Politicians targets those fears.  Demonization and hate is 90 percent of the game.  

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26 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Politics is mostly fear.   The right fears communism, Muslim extremism, illegal immigration, etc.   The left fears racism, nationalism, global warming, 

Hmm

What is the difference here?

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1 hour ago, jon_mx said:

Politics is mostly fear.   The right fears communism, Muslim extremism, illegal immigration, etc.   The left fears racism, nationalism, global warming, etc.   Politicians targets those fears.  Demonization and hate is 90 percent of the game.  

Politics is not mostly fear. There’s nothing wrong with politics, it’s even potentially moral and good. The political consulting industry OTOH is often about fear and emotion. And the right can be as well. Just think of the hot button opinion drivers over the years.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Officer Pete Malloy said:

Hmm

What is the difference here?

Not as much as you think.  The white supremacists is mostly a Boogeyman. 

Edited by jon_mx

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Politics is not mostly fear. There’s nothing wrong with politics, it’s even potentially moral and good. The political consulting industry OTOH is often about fear and emotion. And the right can be as well. Just think of the hot button opinion drivers over the years.

The political discourse is mostly fear and hate.  The fear of taking abortion rights away vs. killing babies.   The fear of having guns taking away vs. mass shootings.  The fear of the government taking all of your money vs. old people starving.  All the talk of fascism and white supremacists to project the fear of slavery or even another Holocaust.  The obsession with Trump or Obama is mostly fear based.  The forum is heavily moderated and still the discussions often degrade into character assassination and belittlement.  People rarely keep the discussions about what is morally right or what is the best way to tackle a problem.  

Edited by jon_mx

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8 hours ago, jon_mx said:

Not as much as you think.  The white supremacists is mostly a Boogeyman. 

With a trail of dead at their feet 

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8 hours ago, jon_mx said:

Not as much as you think.  The white supremacists is mostly a Boogeyman. 

Really?

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

The political discourse is mostly fear and hate.  The fear of taking abortion rights away vs. killing babies.   The fear of having guns taking away vs. mass shootings.  The fear of the government taking all of your money vs. old people starving.  All the talk of fascism and white supremacists to project the fear of slavery or even another Holocaust.  The obsession with Trump or Obama is mostly fear based.  The forum is heavily moderated and still the discussions often degrade into character assassination and belittlement.  People rarely keep the discussions about what is morally right or what is the best way to tackle a problem.  

That’s entirely up to the individual. Politics borne of principle and moral choices is why we have government. I do agree that the political consulting industry drives the bile you’re mentioning because that’s what often drives fundraising. That’s not to say that negative consequences aren’t important. People weren’t wrong to fear they might lose their doctor under Obama or that they might not meet their medical bills under Trump, just an example. Politics should be responsive, but it’s up to every individual to focus on their own values rather than let fear/negativity turn them off. Arguments based on claims of hypocrisy and fake news are two primary ways that happens IMO.

And to tie it in, IMO that SOB murderer very much had an ideology. The only way to fight that kind of nihilistic fascism, because that’s what it is, is with democratic politics which debate positive values. That certainly can include conservatives and liberals alike who in healthy democracies share a host of normal politics. The key is to punch this crap down when you see it, if one thing is clear it should be besides his ideology he was very much a creature of the Internet.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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