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JohnnyU

Oldest trading trick in the book

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Don't you just love it when someone sends you a message asking what you would want for a particular player?   Some consider this as starting dialogue.   I view it as putting yourself at a disadvantage from the beginning of any negotiation.  If I want a player from someone I try to give a great offer from the outset and sometimes my best offer and I never asked what they want for a player.  Inquiring about what position of help they need is fine however.   My best response to something like that is  "I'm not against trading said player and not sure what I would want, because I wasn't trying to trade him.  If you make me your best offer I'll consider it.".   I think you make more trades that way and avoid low ball or non-serious interest.   Some owners want you to make the first offer, either because they are lazy, or scared of being ripped off, even if it's a player they showed first interest.   Sometimes they low ball you to get things rolling.  I just decline and don't respond if I wasn't trying to trade a player.  I think after awhile they know where I'm coming from and if they want a player of mine they will make a meaningful offer and sometimes their best offer out of the gate.  Some owners refuse to do that and they are usually the owners I don't trade with very often and that's OK too.

Edited by JohnnyU
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9 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

Don't you just love it when someone sends you a message asking what you would want for a particular player?   Some consider this as starting dialogue.   I view it as putting yourself at a disadvantage from the beginning of any negotiation.  If I want a player from someone I try to give a great offer from the outset and sometimes my best offer and I never asked what they want for a player.     My best response to something like that is I'm not against trading said player and not sure what I would want, because I wasn't trying to trade him.  If you make me your best offer I'll consider it.  I think you make more trades that way and avoid lowball or non-serious interest.

Sending offers out of the blue no matter how strong never seem to lead to great success in my experience.  My first interaction is generally letting an owner know I have interest in a certain players (or players) and asking where he thinks he might need help.  Basically what positions would you be interested in improving in.  I will review the other team prior to asking the question and sometimes make a suggestion on what I think.  Something like I am an interested in player X and it looks like you could use some help at position Y.  Let me know if you have any other positions of interest.

 

That generally starts a dialogue going and can lead to agreements.  If they shut down with I am not trading player X and don't have any needs then I go look elsewhere. 

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14 minutes ago, Gally said:

Sending offers out of the blue no matter how strong never seem to lead to great success in my experience.  My first interaction is generally letting an owner know I have interest in a certain players (or players) and asking where he thinks he might need help.  Basically what positions would you be interested in improving in.  I will review the other team prior to asking the question and sometimes make a suggestion on what I think.  Something like I am an interested in player X and it looks like you could use some help at position Y.  Let me know if you have any other positions of interest.

 

That generally starts a dialogue going and can lead to agreements.  If they shut down with I am not trading player X and don't have any needs then I go look elsewhere. 

Nothing wrong with gauging what position a team is looking to improve, but most of the time they are out to find out what players and / or picks you would take for a player.  They are really trying to get you to make the first offer.  I don't trade that way if I wasn't even trying to trade the player.   I think it's the responsibility of the person wanting a player to make the offer and make it a good one.  

Edited by JohnnyU
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Just now, JohnnyU said:

Nothing wrong with gauging what position a team is looking to improve, but most of the time they are out to find out what players and / or picks you would take for a player.  I don't trade that way.  I think it's the responsibility of the person wanting a player to make the offer and make it a good one.  

I agree but it helps cut down uselessness when you have an idea of what the other owner views as his needs.  There is one guy in a league I am in that evaluates players very differently.  I look at his team and thinks he could use X, Y, Z.  I try and make an offer accordingly and he comes back with that his his strongest position why would I want that.  He also has grudges on certain players so if you happen to offer one of those he shuts down.  Very difficult to deal with but then he accepts things that are just as baffling.  The only way is to get him to confirm what he thinks he needs because there is no way to figure it out. 

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3 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

Nothing wrong with gauging what position a team is looking to improve, but most of the time they are out to find out what players and / or picks you would take for a player.  They are really trying to get you to make the first offer.  I don't trade that way if I wasn't even trying to trade the player.   I think it's the responsibility of the person wanting a player to make the offer and make it a good one.  

That's why I usually try to either make it a generic "what position are you looking for or would you prefer picks?" Type email if the player is on trade bait. If the player isn't, usually it's "I'm interested in improving my wr2, would you be willing to trade Keenan Allen (or whomever)? I'd want to trade picks because I'm trying to compete this year" type of email. 

Or just come out of the blue with an offer but from my experience that doesn't usually work as well.

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8 minutes ago, SayWhat? said:

So wait, what’s the trick here?

The trick is to send you a message asking what you would want for a particular player, thus trying to get you to make him an offer on a player you weren't shopping.  I think that puts you at a disadvantage from outset.  My philosophy is if I want a player I look at his team and see what position he may need and make my best offer out of the box, or something close to it.  I get a lot of trades done by doing this.  I'm not interested in having to get the best of him, I'm interested in getting the player I want and I'm willing to give fair value.

Edited by JohnnyU
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One of my very good friends just bombards every single team in the league with obscenely lopsided trades. Eventually  through the war of attrition he gets some moron, usually struggling, to take the bait. Happens every year. 

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Oldest trick is to trade 2-3 lower tier players for 1 higher tier guy. Then use the open roster spots to replenish via waivers. It took like 15 years for my leagues to fully figure that one out. And even now, it still sometimes happens when dudes get desperate midseason.

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2 minutes ago, STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:

One of my very good friends just bombards every single team in the league with obscenely lopsided trades. Eventually  through the war of attrition he gets some moron, usually struggling, to take the bait. Happens every year. 

I may send out a lot of offers if I'm trying to trade a player or pick(s), but I still try and make it a good offer.  If I low ball someone it is by accident.

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Just now, LawFitz said:

Oldest trick is to trade 2-3 lower tier players for 1 higher tier guy. Then use the open roster spots to replenish via waivers. It took like 15 years for my leagues to fully figure that one out. And even now, it still sometimes happens when dudes get desperate midseason.

Yep, an oldie but a goody.

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20 minutes ago, SayWhat? said:

So wait, what’s the trick here?

I think he's more or less saying when shopping for a used car wait for the other guy to throw out his best number first.

Meh, I have no problem with someone starting a dialogue with, "What do you want for <player X>". Maybe I throw out something vague like I need to get better at a specific position. More often than not I look over the roster of the team asking, identify the best player on his roster(<player Y>), and assuming his player is better than my player ask the interested team, "What do I need to add to <player X> for you to give my <player Y>?" I would think JohnnyU would like that approach in that the ball is back in the court of the original interested team to make the initial offer.

If the original team inquiring doesn't have a player as good as the one he's interested in.... well, let's just say it's going to take more than two nickels for me to give up a dime. I've gotten out of the habit of throwing out the first offers because so many drama queens in FF leagues do their best JFK impression at nearly every offer.

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2 minutes ago, BoltBacker said:

I think he's more or less saying when shopping for a used car wait for the other guy to throw out his best number first.

Meh, I have no problem with someone starting a dialogue with, "What do you want for <player X>". Maybe I throw out something vague like I need to get better at a specific position. More often than not I look over the roster of the team asking, identify the best player on his roster(<player Y>), and assuming his player is better than my player ask the interested team, "What do I need to add to <player X> for you to give my <player Y>?" I would think JohnnyU would like that approach in that the ball is back in the court of the original interested team to make the initial offer.

If the original team inquiring doesn't have a player as good as the one he's interested in.... well, let's just say it's going to take more than two nickels for me to give up a dime. I've gotten out of the habit of throwing out the first offers because so many drama queens in FF leagues do their best JFK impression at nearly every offer.

I will admit most of my trades are a result of me wanting something and making a great offer.  However, there are times where we do some haggling, but in general I don't like it.  I'm not out to rip someone off, I'm out to improve my team and give a fair price to do so.

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27 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

The trick is to send you a message asking what you would want for a particular player, thus trying to get you to make him an offer on a player you weren't shopping.  I think that puts you at a disadvantage from outset.  My philosophy is if I want a player I look at his team and see what position he may need and make my best offer out of the box, or something close to it.  I get a lot of trades done by doing this.  I'm not interested in having to get the best of him, I'm interested in getting the player I want and I'm willing to give fair value.

Gotcha.  I don’t really feel like it’s a trick, and I’d argue may actually put the owner inquiring at the disadvantage as he’s clearly laying his cards out that he’s after Player X.  Sometimes I’d prefer to just offer a multiplayer deal so that the other owner can’t really unpack exactly what it is that I’m after.  If I tell them via inquiry, then they know exactly who I’m after and can attempt to extract maximum value from me.

So, what do you do when someone sends you an inquiry vs an offer?

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7 minutes ago, SayWhat? said:

So, what do you do when someone sends you an inquiry vs an offer?

If it's someone I was wanting to trade I usually look over his team and make a great offer.  If it's someone I wasn't shopping I do what I said in the OP (quoted).  

Edited by JohnnyU
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14 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

If it's someone I was wanting to trade I usually look over his team and make a great offer.  If it's someone I wasn't shopping I do what I said in the OP (quoted).  

Got it.  Makes sense.  

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I think the core of the idea in the OP is that revealing your interest in a player and making the first offer puts you at a disadvantage.

I dont really see how one can avoid this however if you are actually interested in trading for one or more of their players.

It is this secrecy that makes it difficult to get an honest conversation going in the first place.

It reminds me of a Bob Dylan lyric where he talks about someone hiding what they dont know to begin with.

Maybe it's a mistake but I talk openly about this stuff and always work from the assumption that my trade partner is not a clueless person in regards to relative value of players.

Edited by Biabreakable
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24 minutes ago, Biabreakable said:

I think the core of the idea in the OP is that revealing your interest in a player and making the first offer puts you at a disadvantage.

I dont really see how one can avoid this however if you are actually interested in trading for one or more of their players.

It is this secrecy that makes it difficult to get an honest conversation going in the first place.

It reminds me of a Bob Dylan lyric where he talks about someone hiding what they dont know to begin with.

Maybe it's a mistake but I talk openly about this stuff and always work from the assumption that my trade partner is not a clueless person in regards to relative value of players.

I expect owners in my leagues to know what they are doing, and most do, so if an owner is interested in one of my players and I wasn't shopping him, then it's up to that owner to go after my player with a great offer out of the gate.  If they low ball me, I decline and don't respond, it's that simple.  If they inquire about a player of mine and I do want to trade him, I may make the initial offer and make it a good one.  I'm not one for haggling and if it's just a great deal you're after for a non-discounted player, then I'm probably not interested.  If it's a non-discounted player you're after, then you do the work and come at me with a great offer.   If it's a discounted player they are after I am probably more receptive to doing  the leg work on what I would take and make an offer.

Edited by JohnnyU
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Good trick is well....

Trade a player (in an otherwise fair deal) who has a bye the week you play that team.  Or for redraft, trade a player that still has a bye coming up for a player who's already had his. 

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2 minutes ago, matttyl said:

Good trick is well....

Trade a player (in an otherwise fair deal) who has a bye the week you play that team.  Or for redraft, trade a player that still has a bye coming up for a player who's already had his. 

Not sure why anyone would do that.  A bye week is just one week.

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Just now, JohnnyU said:

Not sure why anyone would do that.  A bye week is just one week.

And could easily be the difference between one win and one loss.  In a 13 game regular season, that could be huge. 

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2 minutes ago, matttyl said:

And could easily be the difference between one win and one loss.  In a 13 game regular season, that could be huge. 

Perhaps that occurs more in redraft leagues, which I don't play in.

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Just now, JohnnyU said:

Perhaps that occurs more in redraft leagues, which I don't play in.

Yes, the bye week thing helps more in redrafts.  That said, if I'm shopping a player I'll look more favorably at the team I play when that player is on bye.  At least I know he can use him against me. 

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1 hour ago, SayWhat? said:

Gotcha.  I don’t really feel like it’s a trick

It's not what I would call a trick either, it's just poor strategy. It's like playing poker with someone who has an obvious tell and they are unaware.

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2 hours ago, JohnnyU said:

Don't you just love it when someone sends you a message asking what you would want for a particular player?   Some consider this as starting dialogue.   I view it as putting yourself at a disadvantage from the beginning of any negotiation.  If I want a player from someone I try to give a great offer from the outset and sometimes my best offer and I never asked what they want for a player.  Inquiring about what position of help they need is fine however.   My best response to something like that is  "I'm not against trading said player and not sure what I would want, because I wasn't trying to trade him.  If you make me your best offer I'll consider it.".   I think you make more trades that way and avoid low ball or non-serious interest.   Some owners want you to make the first offer, either because they are lazy, or scared of being ripped off, even if it's a player they showed first interest.   Sometimes they low ball you to get things rolling.  I just decline and don't respond if I wasn't trying to trade a player.  I think after awhile they know where I'm coming from and if they want a player of mine they will make a meaningful offer and sometimes their best offer out of the gate.  Some owners refuse to do that and they are usually the owners I don't trade with very often and that's OK too.

YES! this is how I offer as well... I will offer what seems like a good deal, I'll even use the dynasty trade calculator to verify that it's a legit offer, or in their favor, and I let it go from there. 

 

People ask me all the time, "what do you want for Barkley?" ummm I'm not trying to trade him, wow me with an offer and maybe I'll take it. 

 

Personally, I'll always offer a comment when I reject a trade. if its a low ball offer I'll respond with, "thanks for the offer but I'm not shopping him. if you make me your best offer I'll consider it." otherwise a lack of a comment ends up leading sometimes to more stupid trade offers. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, JohnnyU said:

Don't you just love it when someone sends you a message asking what you would want for a particular player?   Some consider this as starting dialogue.   I view it as putting yourself at a disadvantage from the beginning of any negotiation.  If I want a player from someone I try to give a great offer from the outset and sometimes my best offer and I never asked what they want for a player.  Inquiring about what position of help they need is fine however.   My best response to something like that is  "I'm not against trading said player and not sure what I would want, because I wasn't trying to trade him.  If you make me your best offer I'll consider it.".   I think you make more trades that way and avoid low ball or non-serious interest.   Some owners want you to make the first offer, either because they are lazy, or scared of being ripped off, even if it's a player they showed first interest.   Sometimes they low ball you to get things rolling.  I just decline and don't respond if I wasn't trying to trade a player.  I think after awhile they know where I'm coming from and if they want a player of mine they will make a meaningful offer and sometimes their best offer out of the gate.  Some owners refuse to do that and they are usually the owners I don't trade with very often and that's OK too.

I just respond by saying, "you're the third guy who asked about him this week.  Let me see what the other guys offer me and I'll get back to you."  

Usually causes them to send a fair offer pretty quickly.   And I agree with @SayWhat? that the guy inquiring has put himself at a disadvantage by showing his hand.

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1 minute ago, jmo87usc said:

 And I agree with @SayWhat? that the guy inquiring has put himself at a disadvantage by showing his hand.

That all changes as soon as the person with the player makes the first offer.  I believe the owner wanting the player should make the first offer and make it a good one.

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11 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

That all changes as soon as the person with the player makes the first offer.  I believe the owner wanting the player should make the first offer and make it a good one.

I do agree with the old adage of "never make the first offer".  But I also think you hold the power knowing that the guy approached you and not vice versa.  Especially if it's a player you really had no intentions of moving.  Gives you the opportunity to ask for more than you normally would and see if he bites.  If not, then no harm and you keep the player. 

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28 minutes ago, jmo87usc said:

I do agree with the old adage of "never make the first offer".  But I also think you hold the power knowing that the guy approached you and not vice versa.  Especially if it's a player you really had no intentions of moving.  Gives you the opportunity to ask for more than you normally would and see if he bites.  If not, then no harm and you keep the player. 

....unless it's you that is the person wanting the player, then yes, you should make the first offer.  Also, better trades are made when one guy isn't constantly looking to always WIN BIG on the deal.

Edited by JohnnyU

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3 hours ago, Gally said:

Sending offers out of the blue no matter how strong never seem to lead to great success in my experience.

Depends on the person you are trading with.  I made two trades this week in a league where I was targeting a certain player and sent out an offer.  Both were accepted without conversation or counter offers.

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2 minutes ago, tangfoot said:

Depends on the person you are trading with.  I made two trades this week in a league where I was targeting a certain player and sent out an offer.  Both were accepted without conversation or counter offers.

I make a lot of trades like this as well.

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2 hours ago, LawFitz said:

Oldest trick is to trade 2-3 lower tier players for 1 higher tier guy. Then use the open roster spots to replenish via waivers. It took like 15 years for my leagues to fully figure that one out. And even now, it still sometimes happens when dudes get desperate midseason.

I love seeing that move attempted. 'I'm giving you my 4th RB, my 6th WR and my backup TE. They scored more points than the guy I'm asking for.'  Especially funny when the other guy says those 3 scored less than the 3 guys he started in those spots all year.

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14 minutes ago, lod001 said:

I love seeing that move attempted. 'I'm giving you my 4th RB, my 6th WR and my backup TE. They scored more points than the guy I'm asking for.'  Especially funny when the other guy says those 3 scored less than the 3 guys he started in those spots all year.

Or even better is when they want a player of yours then proceed to tell you bad things about him and why you should trade him  

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There are different types of trades imo. 

1. I’m targeting player x.

Make a good offer and hope for dialogue, sometimes this is the easiest. Maybe Inquire about someone/something else, and then steer the conversation to who you want. Perhaps that asset isn’t available and you have to get serious to obtain it. 

2. I’m moving on from asset x.

In these cases, I usually define the asset (build asset or win asset), then rule out teams. Don’t try to sell Fitzgerald to someone that’s rebuilding, right? Then I look for who had a weakness at that position, then maybe ask “any interest in x?” I find it easy to make deals like this. You know, ones that would make sense for the other team. 

3. Strike while the iron is hot

This is your in season, guy just lost his backup QB and his starter and may be desperate so offer trubisky for guice and see if he bites (he did.) Taking advantage of these types of opportunities is key in season. 

This also would include timing trades around good news. Jared cook signs with saints, start throwing some offers out there if you own him- I traded fleener/2nd for gronk when he went to NO, although that was offered to me. Moving someone right after a positive blurb on Rotoworld works. Conversely, buying after some bad news, like me then selling gronk last year when he was talking possible retirement for 1.10/2.10. 

Edited by Snorkelson

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Sometimes a player is on the trade board and you are asking what they are thinking they would need or are looking for for that player. I try and indicate what I am looking for when I list my players I am looking to trade. I at least put a position or picks in what I am seeking.

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1 hour ago, tangfoot said:

Depends on the person you are trading with.  I made two trades this week in a league where I was targeting a certain player and sent out an offer.  Both were accepted without conversation or counter offers.

Of course it depends on the trading partner.  I find the easiest owner to trade with is the one that has confidence in their player evaluation ability.  They generally know what they want and don't want and make deals quickly.  Not a lot of haggling.  The owner I hate is the one that has no confidence and is always trying to low ball.  He always has to throw in one last piece and then usually nothing ever happens. 

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3 minutes ago, Gally said:

The owner I hate is the one that has no confidence and is always trying to low ball.

These two things are mutually exclusive.  One of the most prolific traders in my league also is notorious for starting out with ridiculous lowball offers.  But he's also tenacious.

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9 minutes ago, Gally said:

Of course it depends on the trading partner.  I find the easiest owner to trade with is the one that has confidence in their player evaluation ability.  They generally know what they want and don't want and make deals quickly.  Not a lot of haggling.  The owner I hate is the one that has no confidence and is always trying to low ball.  He always has to throw in one last piece and then usually nothing ever happens. 

Depending on how negotiations have flowed I always look for that little extra that he will part with. Late rookie picks do have value! Dak, kittle, Dede, Lindsey, all sorts of guys that you can luck into. Even a rawls or tajae sharpe had decent value at one point. Tyreek and Antonio were probably late picks or undrafted. A 3rd or 4th can be valuable. 

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47 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

Depending on how negotiations have flowed I always look for that little extra that he will part with. Late rookie picks do have value! Dak, kittle, Dede, Lindsey, all sorts of guys that you can luck into. Even a rawls or tajae sharpe had decent value at one point. Tyreek and Antonio were probably late picks or undrafted. A 3rd or 4th can be valuable. 

That usually backfires on them when someone does that to me.  I usually reject and forget about it.  I can walk away from any deal once I feel the offer was good and they want a little extra.

I do the same thing when buying a car.  You never fall in love with the car and they have to know you don’t have any problem walking away.  There’s always another car and in fantasy there’s always another trade.

Edited by JohnnyU

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1 hour ago, tangfoot said:

These two things are mutually exclusive.  One of the most prolific traders in my league also is notorious for starting out with ridiculous lowball offers.  But he's also tenacious.

We have one of those in my 14 team devy leagues.  He doesn’t faze me at all.  I just reject and go about my day.

Edited by JohnnyU

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My philosophy is pretty simple.  If I see a guy that I think will make my team better, I send an offer that gives the other owner a reason to accept.  I want to make the trade go and I don’t mind helping their team out as long as I’m sure my team is getting stronger.

I don’t want to be the owner that other teams think is trying to screw them or is disrespectful of their FF ability.  I want the chance of more trades with them in the future.

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18 minutes ago, Bronco Billy said:

My philosophy is pretty simple.  If I see a guy that I think will make my team better, I send an offer that gives the other owner a reason to accept.  I want to make the trade go and I don’t mind helping their team out as long as I’m sure my team is getting stronger.

I don’t want to be the owner that other teams think is trying to screw them or is disrespectful of their FF ability.  I want the chance of more trades with them in the future.

sound advice

 

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I've always had the best success at making trades when I've been able to start an actual dialogue with the other owner.  When someone inquires (or sends me an offer that I don't like), I will usually respond by telling the other owner "these are the players on your team that interest me..." and maybe briefly tell them where I view my team (re-building, need WR help, etc.). More often than not, the owner will send a good new offer that  is based off of what I just told him. 

Fantasy Football is a fun game.  I don't depend on my winnings to eat, and I don't play in any big money leagues.  That's why I don't mind telling another owner exactly where I'm coming from.  The good owners (in my experience) seem to respect that, and the ones that want to really get a deal done seem to appreciate the honesty.  And I've found that I've ended up making a lot of trades with the same owners over the years.

And then there are some owners that it doesn't even help to provide any feedback what-so-ever.  They will only consider trades that are so lopsided in their favor there's no chance you'd ever accept them.  I always want to go off on them for sending such ridiculous offers, but it isn't worth it.

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4 hours ago, JohnnyU said:

....unless it's you that is the person wanting the player, then yes, you should make the first offer.  Also, better trades are made when one guy isn't constantly looking to always WIN BIG on the deal.

I agree with both points.   At 40 years old and 4 kids I don’t have time to waste on fantasy negotiations.   If I want a player, I send my best offer up front.  I’ll consider a small counter from the other owner, but anything more and I reject and move along. 

If someone sends me a lowball offer or asks what I want for a player, I just send an offer of what I actually want.  If they try to beat my price down, I just move on.  I can’t be bothered trying to reason with those guys.  

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Whenever I am asked, What do you want for player X?

My response is, I have no idea, I haven't thought about it.

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11 hours ago, squistion said:

Whenever I am asked, What do you want for player X?

My response is, I have no idea, I haven't thought about it.

my response is to send an offer to the other owner. Usually slightly (or more) in my favor. They will then (usually) counter and we will go from there. A lot of times we can then work this into a fair trade for both sides. Sometimes we can't come to an agreement and that is fine as well.

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oldest trick in the book in dynasty is to overbid for players in FA and then try and trade them for picks. We have one owner that religiously does this every year. 

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On 3/21/2019 at 1:12 PM, Gally said:

Sending offers out of the blue no matter how strong never seem to lead to great success in my experience.  My first interaction is generally letting an owner know I have interest in a certain players (or players) and asking where he thinks he might need help.  Basically what positions would you be interested in improving in.  I will review the other team prior to asking the question and sometimes make a suggestion on what I think.  Something like I am an interested in player X and it looks like you could use some help at position Y.  Let me know if you have any other positions of interest.

 

That generally starts a dialogue going and can lead to agreements.  If they shut down with I am not trading player X and don't have any needs then I go look elsewhere. 

This

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