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Pro-Life Christians: How do you rationalize miscarriages? (1 Viewer)

Captain Cranks

Captain Cranks

Footballguy
Approximately 10-15% of all pregnancies end in miscarriages.  Approximately 1% of these occur in the second trimester.  I'm curious how those who believe God is the creator of life and all of his creations are precious from conception rationalize what, from the outside perspective, is nothing short of abortion.    

 
jomar said:
one possibility is the same way almost everything can be rationalized:  God works in mysterious ways
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When I've discussed why God allows children to die of starvation, the response is that 'it's man who allows this.  He has the resources to take care of the issue, but because of sin it continues'.  That reconciles with the premise that God is loving but also allows free will.  I don't think the same can be said with regard to miscarriages though.

 
Captain Cranks said:
When I've discussed why God allows children to die of starvation, the response is that 'it's man who allows this.  He has the resources to take care of the issue, but because of sin it continues'.  That reconciles with the premise that God is loving but also allows free will.  I don't think the same can be said with regard to miscarriages though.
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That was a dumb response you received.  The easiest answer is in order for free will to exist, we must be allowed to experience both the ultimate joys in life as well as the ultimate sadnesses.  Any "shielding" from one or the other distorts the reality we experience.  I don't know why imperfect biological processes wouldn't be included in that, but I'm not all that confident you really want to have a serious conversation about this either given your OP.

 
The Commish said:
That was a dumb response you received.  The easiest answer is in order for free will to exist, we must be allowed to experience both the ultimate joys in life as well as the ultimate sadnesses.  Any "shielding" from one or the other distorts the reality we experience.  I don't know why imperfect biological processes wouldn't be included in that, but I'm not all that confident you really want to have a serious conversation about this either given your OP.
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How does allowing the ultimate joy and the ultimate sadness answer why there's starvation in the world?  

P.S.  You and IK need to drop the 'he's just trolling' sensitivity.  

 
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I rationalize it as the body's natural way to eliminate an nonviable fetus. I don't know how anyone could possibly call it nothing short of abortion, that's pretty callous.

 
Captain Cranks said:
How does allowing the ultimate joy and the ultimate sadness answer why there's starvation in the world?  

P.S.  You and IK need to drop the 'he's just trolling' sensitivity.  
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 I didn't say you were trolling.  The sensitivity issue seems to be yours :shrug:  I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

To your question, one will always best understand their current position (self awareness / empathy) in the world if they know the accurate scale of possibility.  How many times have you heard a kid say "I'm starving" only to correctly point out they have no idea what starving is and for that they should be thankful?  It's not just the ultimate joy/sadness.....it's the ultimate/extreme on any topic.  If you are shielded, you will have no real way of being as self aware as you need to be.  That's the philosophical answer.  If you want the theological answer from a Christianity POV we can do that too.

 
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That their short lives were so full and exemplary that God has called them to their reward.  The question is why does God allow the rest of us to endure the lack of his direct presence.

 
Captain Cranks said:
Approximately 10-15% of all pregnancies end in miscarriages.  Approximately 1% of these occur in the second trimester.  I'm curious how those who believe God is the creator of life and all of his creations are precious from conception rationalize what, from the outside perspective, is nothing short of abortion.    
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So what I'm getting here is you're trying to say miscarriages are not that far off from abortions?  

Sounds like great logic to me.  

 
Gustavo Fring said:
So what I'm getting here is you're trying to say miscarriages are not that far off from abortions?  

Sounds like great logic to me.  
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Abortion definition:  The deliberate termination of a pregnancy. 

Does it not stand to reason that God is terminating a pregnancy through miscarriage?  

 
The Commish said:
 I didn't say you were trolling.  The sensitivity issue seems to be yours :shrug:  I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

To your question, one will always best understand their current position (self awareness / empathy) in the world if they know the accurate scale of possibility.  How many times have you heard a kid say "I'm starving" only to correctly point out they have no idea what starving is and for that they should be thankful?  It's not just the ultimate joy/sadness.....it's the ultimate/extreme on any topic.  If you are shielded, you will have no real way of being as self aware as you need to be.  That's the philosophical answer.  If you want the theological answer from a Christianity POV we can do that too.
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Of course.  That's why I asked.

So you're saying that God placed millions of innocent, starving children on this earth to have a wretched existence so the rest of us would know how lucky we have it?  That doesn't add up to me.  I don't need to see someone without an arm to know it would suck not to have an arm.  

 
What exactly is the outside perspective that equates miscarriages and abortion?  Even without the faith aspect of consideration, one is voluntary and the other is not.  Is somehow the miscarriage a voluntary act by God, thus allowing the equation of the 2?

 
That one guy said:
What exactly is the outside perspective that equates miscarriages and abortion?  Even without the faith aspect of consideration, one is voluntary and the other is not.  Is somehow the miscarriage a voluntary act by God, thus allowing the equation of the 2?
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Again, the definition of abortion is the deliberate termination of a pregnancy.  We usually think of this as done by humans.  However, I'm trying to understand why, if you believe in God the creator who creates life in the image of himself and that life starts at conception, miscarriages are not considered a deliberate termination of pregnancy by God.  

 
Captain Cranks said:
How does allowing the ultimate joy and the ultimate sadness answer why there's starvation in the world?  

P.S.  You and IK need to drop the 'he's just trolling' sensitivity.  
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I don’t think you’re trolling. I do think there was a better way to phrase your introduction of the topic.

I’ve had the same question you posed.

The reason there’s starvation in the world is really a separate topic, but the basic answer is that food is a scarce resource in some places. We as humans do make some effort to reduce others’ starvation, but honestly I think we don’t care about the issue enough when the people starving are on the other side of the world. People very near the starving are often incapable of doing much about it (and may be starving themselves), while people further away generally (correctly) think that it’s not a problem of their own making, and therefore generally (maybe correctly, maybe not — seems complicated) think that it’s not their burden to fix, or at least not to undertake extraordinary efforts to fix when they’ve got their own (albeit smaller) problems to deal with. (And while reducing the problem by 0.001% would be worthwhile and possible, actually fixing the problem would take an extraordinary coordinated effort. Human psychology is such that we underestimate the benefits of only slightly fixing a small part of a problem that is destined to persist.)

I think it’s valid to ask why we as a society don’t do more to prevent starvation.

I also think it’s valid to ask why people who purport to value fetuses approximately as much as they value adults don’t put more effort into preventing natural miscarriages. Some amount of them are inevitable, I’m sure. But maybe funding a research program to figure out what makes some fetuses non-viable would be worthwhile? I don’t know. I don’t personally think fetuses have the same moral claims as adults, but if I did, I’d probably view natural miscarriages as a travesty worth trying to do something about because of the sheer magnitude of the number of deaths involved. It’d seem like a far worse problem than polio ever was, for example.

It’s at least worth thinking about...

 
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Captain Cranks said:
Again, the definition of abortion is the deliberate termination of a pregnancy.  We usually think of this as done by humans.  However, I'm trying to understand why, if you believe in God the creator who creates life in the image of himself and that life starts at conception, miscarriages are not considered a deliberate termination of pregnancy by God.  
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I don't feel miscarriages are deliberate by anyone.

 
Captain Cranks said:
Of course.  That's why I asked.

So you're saying that God placed millions of innocent, starving children on this earth to have a wretched existence so the rest of us would know how lucky we have it?  That doesn't add up to me.  I don't need to see someone without an arm to know it would suck not to have an arm.  
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Nope.  I am saying there is no other way to have the potential for complete self awareness than to be allowed to be exposed to the absolute worst this world has to offer and the absolute best this world has to offer.  Any curtailing at either end skews that ability.

To the twists you keep trying to put in here like the bold......how do you know it sucks not to have an arm?  It's different sure.  If most everyone had one arm, would people then say "it must suck to have two"?  

From a Christian theological perspective, it's made clear that the world we live in is not controlled by God, so "God placed millions of innocent, starving children on this earth...." starts from a completely false premise if you are speaking with someone of that perspective.  The world is not typically viewed by Christians as a place where God is actively involved like some sort of puppet master.

 
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Captain Cranks said:
Again, the definition of abortion is the deliberate termination of a pregnancy.  We usually think of this as done by humans.  However, I'm trying to understand why, if you believe in God the creator who creates life in the image of himself and that life starts at conception, miscarriages are not considered a deliberate termination of pregnancy by God.  
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Deliberate means purposeful, yes?  So to equate abortion and miscarriages there has to be an element of purpose behind the miscarriage and that, in this theorem, God himself is exhibiting divine intervention.  I fully understand and appreciate the “why does He allow bad things to happen” questioning, but I think attempted equation is off by a few jumps of reasoning.

 
My sister in law knew her baby was terminal during her pregnancy. Elected to give birth to that child. Still born. They had a funeral, graveside service etc. I respect that. 

But I could also respect someone who couldn't bear the pain of that process and chose to end the pregnancy early. These types of scenarios by the way are the VAST majority of third trimester abortions. That these things are so deeply personal is why I will alway be for personal choice. But I don't think an abortion is any type of moral victory. I would work to have vastly improved sex education and accesss to contraception.  I would also make some form of maternal support and access to child care so more mothers/families felt they had a valid not poverty stricken path forward. 

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
I don’t think you’re trolling. I do think there was a better way to phrase your introduction of the topic.

I’ve had the same question you posed.

The reason there’s starvation in the world is really a separate topic, but the basic answer is that food is a scarce resource in some places. We as humans do make some effort to reduce others’ starvation, but honestly I think we don’t care about the issue enough when the people starving are on the other side of the world. People very near the starving are often incapable of doing much about it (and may be starving themselves), while people further away generally (correctly) think that it’s not a problem of their own making, and therefore generally (maybe correctly, maybe not — seems complicated) think that it’s not their burden to fix, or at least not to undertake extraordinary efforts to fix when they’ve got their own (albeit much lesser) problems to deal with. (And while reducing the problem by 0.0001% would be worthwhile and possible, actually fixing the problem would take an extraordinary coordinated effort. Human psychology is such that we underestimate the benefits of only slightly fixing a small part of a problem that is destined to persist.)

I think it’s valid to ask why we as a society don’t do more to prevent starvation.

I also think it’s valid to ask why people who purport to value fetuses approximately as much as they value adults don’t put more effort into preventing natural miscarriages. Some amount of them are inevitable, I’m sure. But maybe funding a research program to figure out what makes some fetuses non-viable would be worthwhile? I don’t know. I don’t personally think fetuses have the same moral claims as adults, but if I did, I’d probably view natural miscarriages as a travesty worth trying to do something about because of the pure magnitude of the number of deaths involved.

It’s at least worth thinking about...
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This forum would be pretty empty if people actually always went out and tried to make the things better that they say they want made better. 

 
Captain Cranks said:
Abortion definition:  The deliberate termination of a pregnancy. 

Does it not stand to reason that God is terminating a pregnancy through miscarriage?  
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are there many religious people who believe that every single action on Earth is a deliberate action by God?   I don't think so, though maybe I am wrong.  

 
Long Ball Larry said:
are there many religious people who believe that every single action on Earth is a deliberate action by God?   I don't think so, though maybe I am wrong.  
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Not that I'm aware of. Also, we have to consider the theology that God is God and we aren't and that leads many Christians to say that it's ok for God to do X but it's wrong for a person to do that same thing.

 
Long Ball Larry said:
are there many religious people who believe that every single action on Earth is a deliberate action by God?   I don't think so, though maybe I am wrong.  
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Well, people like to assign divine intervention to the good stuff (miracles, the power of prayer, I passed my test!, etc.).  Not so quick to do that with the bad stuff.  

I think most people would say God created the universe's rules and lets things evolve without intervening.  Therefore, it's not as though he's selectively deciding who will be miscarried and who won't.  Based on the rules, it looks like you've got an 85-90% chance of not being a miscarriage.  That's fine except why make the rules that way?  Why create life that never develops a brain or is self-aware?  It's like if I built my kid a basketball court in the backyard except I built it on a 30-foot platform.  When my son and his friends play ball there's a 15% chance one of them falls off the edge to their death.  Why would I do that?  Similarly, if God created the rules of our biology, why would he create a circumstance where 15% of life that's conceived dies before it takes its first breath?  It's in that sense that God is responsible for the death.  If he's truly all-powerful and created the rules, he could have created biology so that there are no miscarriages.    

 
Captain Cranks said:
I assume you stopped reading after that sentence.
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I read it. I don't have the answer to why anything was created at all.

You're getting into a completely different question with 'Why create life at all if it dies at the end?'

Even 'Why create miscarriages?' is completely different than equating them to abortions.

 
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Death itself, regardless of timing within an individual’s lifetime, is an abortion with this approach to God and his creation?

ETA:  it is my understanding, after being brought up in the church, that most believe death not to have been present in the Garden of Eden, but a result of the original sin and brought on solely by the actions of man.  

 
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So peeling back the layers here, the ultimate question is really "Why did God create things the way he did?"  And I will answer it by hypothesizing that he did it for selfish reasons.  If my goal was to have a relationship with someone that was 100% initiated by that someone, I'd to try and create an environment where almost all roads lead to crossing my path too.

Keep in mind, this is simply my guess as to why he created things the way he did based on what I believe his desires to be.  There really is no answer to this particular question in the Bible.  I don't know if other religions attempt to answer this question or not.

 
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The bigger question is how do they rationalize IVF or egg donor. I have an acquaintance or two that have had fertility issues and are very anti-abortion. Yet, I am pretty sure there are some frozen/discarded fertilized eggs that weren't used and will never be used that were part of the process that helped them have kids despite the infertility. These are the same ones that were #####ing on Facebook about the recent law passed in New York.

 
sn0mm1s said:
The bigger question is how do they rationalize IVF or egg donor. I have an acquaintance or two that have had fertility issues and are very anti-abortion. Yet, I am pretty sure there are some frozen/discarded fertilized eggs that weren't used and will never be used that were part of the process that helped them have kids despite the infertility. These are the same ones that were #####ing on Facebook about the recent law passed in New York.
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Ask them?  Only they can answer that.  We donated ours....they ended up not taking in the two chances they were used in, but we donated.

 
sn0mm1s said:
The bigger question is how do they rationalize IVF or egg donor. I have an acquaintance or two that have had fertility issues and are very anti-abortion. Yet, I am pretty sure there are some frozen/discarded fertilized eggs that weren't used and will never be used that were part of the process that helped them have kids despite the infertility. These are the same ones that were #####ing on Facebook about the recent law passed in New York.
Click to expand...
The wife and I are currently at the stage of deciding what to do with our team hanging out in the freezer somewhere down in Miami.  The decision (I’m not sure dilemma would be the proper term) is a little harder than I expected it to be.  We can donate for use by others, we can donate to be used for research, or we can straight discard them.  I oddly have a hard time with the use by others option the most, am fully against straight discard, and support use for research.  Anyway, that doesn’t at all address your question, I’m more agnostic than religious as is, but I am surprised that the prospect of my genetic offspring being raised elsewhere as such a hard concept to support.  That’s why I gravitate to the research option, hopefully help others achieve their goals of parenthood through scientific advancement rather than knowing I have a child created by my wife and I out there.

 
That one guy said:
The wife and I are currently at the stage of deciding what to do with our team hanging out in the freezer somewhere down in Miami.  The decision (I’m not sure dilemma would be the proper term) is a little harder than I expected it to be.  We can donate for use by others, we can donate to be used for research, or we can straight discard them.  I oddly have a hard time with the use by others option the most, am fully against straight discard, and support use for research.  Anyway, that doesn’t at all address your question, I’m more agnostic than religious as is, but I am surprised that the prospect of my genetic offspring being raised elsewhere as such a hard concept to support.  That’s why I gravitate to the research option, hopefully help others achieve their goals of parenthood through scientific advancement rather than knowing I have a child created by my wife and I out there.
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Right, it isn't an easy decision though the pro-life decision *should* be to have more kids. I don't care either way, I just find it somewhat hypocritical that the pro-lifers that I know don't choose to have more kids themselves but either destroy the team or pass the buck/decision to someone else. I don't call them out on it though... not worth the argument. 

 
sn0mm1s said:
Right, it isn't an easy decision though the pro-life decision *should* be to have more kids. I don't care either way, I just find it somewhat hypocritical that the pro-lifers that I know don't choose to have more kids themselves but either destroy the team or pass the buck/decision to someone else. I don't call them out on it though... not worth the argument. 
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What do you mean by the bold?

 
The Commish said:
What do you mean by the bold?
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Depending on the type of clinic/agency that is used you may not know who receives the embryos or what is done with them (open/closed donation). Suppose you donate, there is no guarantee that they will all be used. You basically give up your rights to them the minute you donate. That is what I mean by passing the buck.

 
sn0mm1s said:
Depending on the type of clinic/agency that is used you may not know who receives the embryos or what is done with them (open/closed donation). Suppose you donate, there is no guarantee that they will all be used. You basically give up your rights to them the minute you donate. That is what I mean by passing the buck.
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Yes...we went through it personally.  Part of donation is what is allowed to be done with them.  You make all the decisions.  If you donate to be used in research, that's your choice.  If you donate so someone can have a chance at kids of their own then you also have to choose if you want to be made known of the embryo use, success/failure etc.  If you donate to a group to give a family a chance you also have to provide an extensive profile of both sides of the family and people then choose (very similar to adoption) but in reverse.  If you choose to be notified of use they tell you when the embryos were chosen and if it was success/failure, then it's over.

 
Captain Cranks said:
Well, people like to assign divine intervention to the good stuff (miracles, the power of prayer, I passed my test!, etc.).  Not so quick to do that with the bad stuff.  

I think most people would say God created the universe's rules and lets things evolve without intervening.  Therefore, it's not as though he's selectively deciding who will be miscarried and who won't.  Based on the rules, it looks like you've got an 85-90% chance of not being a miscarriage.  That's fine except why make the rules that way?  Why create life that never develops a brain or is self-aware?  It's like if I built my kid a basketball court in the backyard except I built it on a 30-foot platform.  When my son and his friends play ball there's a 15% chance one of them falls off the edge to their death.  Why would I do that?  Similarly, if God created the rules of our biology, why would he create a circumstance where 15% of life that's conceived dies before it takes its first breath?  It's in that sense that God is responsible for the death.  If he's truly all-powerful and created the rules, he could have created biology so that there are no miscarriages.    
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Pssst

There isn't some magic man in the sky.  The seeming random way miscarriages happen and/or females are prone to miscarriages happening are exactly as you would expect in nature without divine intervention.

And Commish's argument doesn't hold a drop of water.  It's completely inaccurate to state if God made the rules to exclude miscarriages it would keep people from being exposed to the worst life has to offer:  A) it's not even close to the worst life has to offer in that category and B) If he's god, he can make the rules anything he wants.  Imagine that, a religious person making up a rule for god to follow, lol.    

 
Actually I think this debate is kind of silly but in a sense part of the problem is that we don’t acknowledge that we all are sinners but we also need to understand the value of suffering for Christians. Our earthly existence is only our temporary home.

https://www.livingwaters.com/why-do-bad-things-happen-to-good-people/

“A better question is this: “Why does God allow good things to happen to bad people?” With reasons known only to God, He demonstrated His own love for us in that “While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” In spite of our evil, wicked, sinful nature, God still loves us. He loved us enough to die to take the penalty for our sins when He was crucified on the cross.

Often things happen to us that we simply cannot understand. Instead of doubting God’s goodness in times of suffering, we should trust Him. We should echo the words of Job: “Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.” The book of Job shows us that God is trustworthy, even when we don’t understand the suffering around us.

Why do bad things happen to good people? That only happened once…and He volunteered.”

http://www.southbaychurchli.org/life-purpose-hope-blog/5-reasons-that-god-allows-suffering

 
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“The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”

 
We grieved for all 5 of them though probably not as much if they had been born and we held them. But we still grieved. Alot.

The first time it happened I had every horrible thought you can have as a human about how to stop the pain I was feeling. And I pm'ed @NCCommish and wrote was probably a way too long sad rant of a father.....or almost father I guess.

He showed kindness. It helped. I sometimes wonder what it would be like if we had them all.  I wish we had them all. I always thought I'd have a family bigger than the one I grew up with. I can handle 9 kids easier than most people can handle 1. I grew up doing it. I miss that huge family of unending chaos.

Your question is way too close to flippant to people that have suffered these losses.  If you meant it in sincerity you are using the wrong words in the wrong context making your question pointless.

If you meant it to start a friday thread.....be funnier.

 
Captain Cranks said:
Approximately 10-15% of all pregnancies end in miscarriages.  Approximately 1% of these occur in the second trimester.  I'm curious how those who believe God is the creator of life and all of his creations are precious from conception rationalize what, from the outside perspective, is nothing short of abortion.    
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In an abortion, you cause the death. In a miscarriage you don’t. This is a really odd question.

 
Yankee23Fan said:
We grieved for all 5 of them though probably not as much if they had been born and we held them. But we still grieved. Alot.

The first time it happened I had every horrible thought you can have as a human about how to stop the pain I was feeling. And I pm'ed @NCCommish and wrote was probably a way too long sad rant of a father.....or almost father I guess.

He showed kindness. It helped. I sometimes wonder what it would be like if we had them all.  I wish we had them all. I always thought I'd have a family bigger than the one I grew up with. I can handle 9 kids easier than most people can handle 1. I grew up doing it. I miss that huge family of unending chaos.

Your question is way too close to flippant to people that have suffered these losses.  If you meant it in sincerity you are using the wrong words in the wrong context making your question pointless.

If you meant it to start a friday thread.....be funnier.
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I'm glad I was some comfort. I've had some experience myself. It hurts. It hurt me and it made my wife feel like she had failed me somehow which only made me hurt worse. Miscarriages can destroy couples. There is nothing about them to be taken lightly.

 
tonydead said:
Pssst

There isn't some magic man in the sky.  The seeming random way miscarriages happen and/or females are prone to miscarriages happening are exactly as you would expect in nature without divine intervention.


And Commish's argument doesn't hold a drop of water.  It's completely inaccurate to state if God made the rules to exclude miscarriages it would keep people from being exposed to the worst life has to offer:  A) it's not even close to the worst life has to offer in that category and B) If he's god, he can make the rules anything he wants.  Imagine that, a religious person making up a rule for god to follow, lol.    
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I didn't say this :mellow:  

But to the comment, I know many women who would tell you to pound sand that losing their child isn't the worst life has to offer...it's all a matter of perspective :shrug:  Hopefully you read the rest of my comments to get the context.

 
The Commish said:
I didn't say this :mellow:  

But to the comment, I know many women who would tell you to pound sand that losing their child isn't the worst life has to offer...it's all a matter of perspective :shrug:  Hopefully you read the rest of my comments to get the context.
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Do you know someone whose had a miscarriage and lost an infant a few months old to sudden infant death syndrome?  How would they compare the two?  Know anyone that's been a victim of infanticide?  

 
tonydead said:
Pssst

There isn't some magic man in the sky.  The seeming random way miscarriages happen and/or females are prone to miscarriages happening are exactly as you would expect in nature without divine intervention.


And Commish's argument doesn't hold a drop of water.  It's completely inaccurate to state if God made the rules to exclude miscarriages it would keep people from being exposed to the worst life has to offer:  A) it's not even close to the worst life has to offer in that category and B) If he's god, he can make the rules anything he wants.  Imagine that, a religious person making up a rule for god to follow, lol.    
Click to expand...


The Commish said:
Nope.  I am saying there is no other way to have the potential for complete self awareness than to be allowed to be exposed to the absolute worst this world has to offer and the absolute best this world has to offer.  Any curtailing at either end skews that ability.

To the twists you keep trying to put in here like the bold......how do you know it sucks not to have an arm?  It's different sure.  If most everyone had one arm, would people then say "it must suck to have two"?  

From a Christian theological perspective, it's made clear that the world we live in is not controlled by God, so "God placed millions of innocent, starving children on this earth...." starts from a completely false premise if you are speaking with someone of that perspective.  The world is not typically viewed by Christians as a place where God is actively involved like some sort of puppet master.
Click to expand...

 
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