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Iran is supposed to be evil then I see this. (1 Viewer)

huthut said:
Iran really would have made a much better ally in the area than Saudi Arabia. 
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Well...they gave us the locations of all the Taliban leaders after 9/11.  Then we declared them in Axis of Evil.  A lot of good work down the drain with that speech.

 
huthut said:
Iran really would have made a much better ally in the area than Saudi Arabia. 
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Not their leadership, but their populace is probably the most American-friendly in the Middle East. Instead of wasting our resources in Iraq, we could have helped the Iranian people in their revolts and dissent, much like Michael Ledeen was arguing back in the early aughts.  

 
Joe Summer said:
Of all the repressed countries in the middle east, Iran has the most pro-American citizens.
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Easily.  They populace is also the most westernized.  And they yearn for more freedoms.  It has been this way for decades.

Unfortunately, like many other places in the world, they have a jack booted government on their necks.

 
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Sand said:
Easily.  They populace is also the most westernized.  And they yearn for more freedoms.  It has been this way for decades.

Unfortunately, like many other places in the world, they have a jack booted government on their necks.
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All true but it’s a little more complicated. 

Basically the populace you’re talking about, the ones who are westernized, are the people who live in the big cities like Tehran and Tabriz: middle class and above, more educated. 

The majority of the population live outside those cities, are less educated, and generally support the fundamentalist Ayatollahs and Mullahs. It would be a mistake to assume that the religious elements of the government do not have popular support. 

 
timschochet said:
The majority of the population live outside those cities, are less educated, and generally support the fundamentalist Ayatollahs and Mullahs. It would be a mistake to assume that the religious elements of the government do not have popular support. 
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Most importantly they have the military wrapped up and like most totalitarian states this is the key driver (see: Venezuela).  But no argument from me on your statement. 

 
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rockaction said:
Not their leadership, but their populace is probably the most American-friendly in the Middle East. Instead of wasting our resources in Iraq, we could have helped the Iranian people in their revolts and dissent, much like Michael Ledeen was arguing back in the early aughts.  
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Yeah cause we are so good at regime change.

 
NCCommish said:
Yeah cause we are so good at regime change.
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No, he wasn't arguing for regime change, but rather international pressure and overt support through other means than regime change. We could have aided them in communications, foreign policy that included diplomatic energies being spent on behalf of the people of Iran that wanted regime change themselves, sanctions for state-sponsored terror in the region, etc. 

It wasn't an invasion strategy. It was a strategy of pressure and support for the middle and upper classes that tim was talking about. We didn't take it seriously enough, and they jailed most of the prominent intellectual dissidents, leaving them in prison and without a whole lot of influence.  

 
My general observation (and this long pre-dates Trump) is that the more anti-American the government, the more pro-American the people. That's sometimes true in the other direction, but less so; it's not like Canadians, Brits and Israelis hate us. Maybe it's more for dictatorships and authoritarian governments? The leaders are usually despised, so if we ally ourselves with them the populace resents us, whereas if we oppose them then the people look up to us. (That would also explain why Russia seems to be the biggest exception; the government generally hates us and the people don't seem so fond of us either, perhaps because Putin is relatively popular as dictators go.)

 
Sheriff Bart said:
Any country, generally speaking, it's the politicians and people in power who are evil, not the majority of the population itself. 
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So, what one is saying is that, when a country is referred to as a "####hole", it is more likely than not that hie is referring to the politicians and the people in power who made it that way....not the population itself?   :coffee:

 
Opie said:
So, what one is saying is that, when a country is referred to as a "####hole", it is more likely than not that hie is referring to the politicians and the people in power who made it that way....not the population itself?
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No, Opie, such places are defined by economic and sanitary conditions. This could be anywhere, New Mexico, Mississippi, Connecticut, Scotland, etc. I don't think I'd ever call a town, state or country that though, it's a really insulting term that reflects more on the person using it.

 
Opie said:
So, what one is saying is that, when a country is referred to as a "####hole", it is more likely than not that hie is referring to the politicians and the people in power who made it that way....not the population itself?   :coffee:
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We all know what Trump meant.

 
Opie said:
Of course we do.
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The entire conservative movement rests on pretending not to understand context.

A normal person would understand that when someone talks about "why we have to take people from these ####hole countries?" that person is a obviously disparaging the people, not the leadership. You know, since the leaders wouldn't be the ones emigrating. This seems like basic common sense.  But then of course if you accepted and applied basic common sense you'd have to also admit that the president is a bigot, since a statement disparaging people based on their country of origin is textbook bigotry. Which of course he is, but conservatives can't say that without acknowledging that supporting Trump means supporting a movement based in bigotry. So you end up here. In the silliest, most disingenuous place you can possibly end up. Congratulations?

 
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