unckeyherb
Footballguy
okay, so you saying, "Lots of people every day all over the country." is what? Hyperbole? To what end?
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Gun Paranoia (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Hawkeye21
- Start date
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I'm sure there's more than one but there is only one on here that I can remember saying it.
As for the whiners that supermike is talking about, just browse through the comments on social media of any meme posted about guns being taken away. Check out any far right, conservative group on Facebook and it's ridiculous what they say. These are the people who spread all the fear mongering memes online about how America will crumble if the democrats take over. They also say things like, "God chose Trump to be President." These are the extreme people, not the majority, but it makes me sick.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
well, okay. If you are referring to twitter or facebook for your examples, yeah you are going to get stupid results. There's facebook pages for discussion on flat earth theory. so, yeah. okay. It's totally off base to say there lots of people all over the country and then point to the margins of society on social media as backup. like I said, its not representative of gun owners. At all.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
You don't know any people like that personally though? Maybe it's jut me living in rural Iowa.
I'm not saying this is the majority of gun owners, I'm a gun owner just like you. It's just the extreme ones that we think of more.
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unckeyherb
Footballguy
I work in Philly, live in a mostly conservative suburb. Literally all the guys I know that are gun owners, CC guys, etc. are 100% ok with stricter background checks, gun safety class requirements prior to purchase, etc. Are there a few commando-types at my local range? Sure, 2-3 maybe that I've ever seen. Statistically non-existent.
ETA: To be clear, I'm NOT on board for banning of specific guns for a number of reasons. I don't think that makes me paranoid, but who knows.
ETA2: In fairness, this is probably in line with the number of people that want to ban guns outright.
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NCCommish
Footballguy
No its not hyperbole but it's also not my job to track them down when you act like it doesn't happen. You want to play like it doesn't happen that's cool but I got better things to do than deal with people that aren't being intellectually honest.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
You made the statement bud. I’m just asking for some actual evidence that this is the case. Pointing to crazy people on Twitter or Facebook doesn’t cut it. There are people all over the country to do a lot of stupid ####. They are completely inconsequential and statistically irrelevant. To say that they exist offers nothing to the conversation. But keep it up!
And, if you read my posts right above yours, I think you would agree that I’m not the one being intellectually dishonest in this discussion.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
If we are looking for similarities between the two, then alcohol and guns should both be legal and both be regulated.unckeyherb said:
Beyond that, they're not the same.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
We’re not looking for similarities between guns and alcohol. At least I’m not.
KCitons
Footballguy
Yeah, no need to be paranoid.
NRA sues Los Angeles over law requiring disclosure of ties to gun rights group.
NRA sues Los Angeles over law requiring disclosure of ties to gun rights group.
Slippery slope?
KCitons
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
Have you contacted your representative (or done anything proactive) to ask for tougher DUI laws? Have you done anything to promote tougher gun laws?NCCommish said:
How many people in this country have taken action against guns, but done nothing in regards to alcohol or DUIs? That's the difference.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
How do you explain the process my city has to buy a handgun? Isn't that regulation?
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Regulation needs to require proper training, testing and licensing. The 2nd forbids that.
NCCommish
Footballguy
We dont have to repeal the second. We just have to start interpreting it properly again.
NCCommish
Footballguy
I do the same thing I do with gun policy. I vote for people that want to make the policies I support
Politician Spock
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
What training, testing and licensing do we have around alcohol possession. You didn't mention anything about use. But, you want those things just to have the ability to own a firearm.
KCitons
Footballguy
Right. But since alcohol use isn't even on the political radar, it's not likely to be on the list.
Are you saying you haven't done anything to let your representatives know how you feel about wanting more gun regulations?
Politician Spock
Footballguy
I'm not opposed to alcohol possession requiring training, testing and licensing either.
KCitons
Footballguy
And I'm not opposed to background checks for firearms purchases.
What do you suspect you are going to accomplish with training, testing and licensing of both guns and alcohol? Is it going to stop shootings or DUIs? Most people know that if you point a gun and pull the trigger, someone could die. They also know if you drive under the influence, someone could also die.
People are selfish and will still do whatever they want, regardless of laws. DUI laws have been around for a long time. Gun laws, not so much. I don't see training, testing and licensing doing any good unless you are going to prohibit the use on a frequent basis by doing constant background checks.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Honestly, I see no point of discussing it with someone who would even say this... especially since no less than a month ago, you were caught admitting to brandishing and didn't know it was wrong.
KCitons
Footballguy
Yes, run away when you start to loose traction. You do this every time.
Also ignored the part of my post where I pointed out that people know drinking and driving is against the law. How many PSAs do we have about it. But, it still happens.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Honestly, I've never experienced anyone who goes down as many rabbit holes as you do.
Has nothing to do with traction. I'm just not going to chase you down another one.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Pretty sure he didn't lose anything. And this fixation on trying to make drinking and gun ownership the same thing is really a poor argument. It really doesn't make any sense and has nothing to do with this conversation .
NCCommish
Footballguy
It's on the radar here. At this point NC has just about the toughest laws in the country regarding DUI. And we got those by voting for people who would enact them. And I'm done with this little tangent.
KCitons
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
Rabbit hole? You mean the way you brought up an incident from 25 years ago and decided to become the judge, jury, and executioner?
I checked the laws. I was within my rights then, and would be today, to protect myself while in my home. Especially after an attempted assault on my doorstep.
Training would have taught me to shoot the guy. Do you think that would have been a better result?
Politician Spock
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
Aren't you clever.
I haven't had a drivers test in 35 years either. But, they still allow me to drive every day.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
According to you, the training, testing and licensing you went through 35 years ago didn't do any good anyway. We should probably just stop wasting the expense of that and save drivers the aggravation of having to do it.
KCitons
Footballguy
How do you explain auto accidents? I haven't had an accident with another moving vehicle since I was 16. (backed into a parked car in a parking lot over 10 years ago). But, there are accidents every day by people that have received training, testing and licensing.
It's still going to happen. When it comes to mass shootings (which is the reason for any of the proposed gun regulations) there will be very little change due to training, testing, and licensing. It will still require people to follow the rules. And we know how well people in this country follow the rules. Just look at how well the war on drugs is going.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
I have zero doubt that auto accidents would sky rocket if no one had to be trained, tested and licensed to drive.
Do you really need it explained why?
KCitons
Footballguy
Are you proposing that mass shootings would decrease a lot do to training, testing and licensing?
Politician Spock
Footballguy
I am proposing that training, testing and licensing requirements for gun ownership would significantly help reduce our country's gun violence down to the levels of other developed countries.
As for how it would impact mass shootings, the testing wouldn't just test the knowledge they learned in their training, but would also test their psyche, and red flag those with the psychological conditions we've identified in mass shooters. If the red flagged tester wants to appeal the red flag, they can get evaluated by a psychiatrist who then has the power to award or deny the license to the tester.
KCitons
Footballguy
Is the independent psychiatrist carrying the liability if they approve someone and that person commits a mass shooting?
Politician Spock
Footballguy
No. But they would likely need to be state certified to represent the interests of the people in their evaluation, and not the interests of the tester.
If the Left thought that they could get away with it, eventually, they would try to ban all guns.
They've already said that they would if they could.
Knowing this, I own a .45 handgun to protect my family and a Bushmaster 5.56mm to protect my .45 handgun.
I can see why those who don't own guns or are "afraid" of guns, want them banned.
I don't drink and I wouldn't care if they banned alcohol.
I don't want alcohol banned, but I wouldn't care if it was...other than it being another giant government intrusion and it didn't turn out so well the last time it happened.
People would drink anyway.
The difference being...I don't push the issue...even though alcohol consumption isn't covered by the US Constitution and it kills far more people than guns do...and I probably wouldn't have gotten laid without it.
As a matter of fact, alcohol kills many, many more than those killed by "assault weapons" yet, we've chosen to simply "live with the threat" and do nothing about it.
Where are the mandatory training classes and background checks for alcohol consumption?
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Kristof, Nicholas. “Some Inconvenient Gun Facts for Liberals.” New York Times. 16 January 2016. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/01/17...
93% of guns obtained illegally https://www.atf.gov/file/5646/download
G.R. “In New Orleans, Call 911 and Wait for an Hour.” The Economist. 10 December 2015. https://www.economist.com/blogs/democ...
Statista. “Number of murder victims in the United States in 2016, by weapon.” https://www.statista.com/statistics/1...
Statista. “Number of murder victims in the United States in 2016, by weapon.” https://www.statista.com/statistics/1...
Hoyert, Donna L. & Xu, Jiaquan. “Deaths: Preliminary Data for 2011.” National Vital Statistics Reports, Volume 61, Number 6. 10 October 2012. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nv...
Foundation For Economic Education. “Defensive Gun Use is More Than Shooting Bad Guys.” 27 February 2018 https://fee.org/articles/defensive-gu...
93% of guns obtained illegally https://www.atf.gov/file/5646/download
G.R. “In New Orleans, Call 911 and Wait for an Hour.” The Economist. 10 December 2015. https://www.economist.com/blogs/democ...
Statista. “Number of murder victims in the United States in 2016, by weapon.” https://www.statista.com/statistics/1...
Statista. “Number of murder victims in the United States in 2016, by weapon.” https://www.statista.com/statistics/1...
Hoyert, Donna L. & Xu, Jiaquan. “Deaths: Preliminary Data for 2011.” National Vital Statistics Reports, Volume 61, Number 6. 10 October 2012. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nv...
Foundation For Economic Education. “Defensive Gun Use is More Than Shooting Bad Guys.” 27 February 2018 https://fee.org/articles/defensive-gu...
timschochet
Footballguy
This seems a little odd.
ETA- shouldn’t you have a more powerful gun to protect the Bushmaster?
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Hawkeye21
Footballguy
The problem I see is that the people that are a little extreme on either side of the gun debate are way too stubborn to ever get anything accomplished. Once things start to get a little heated the people on the far left start talking about banning guns and the people on the far right start accusing others of wanting to ban all guns. I don't think that's what very many people really want at all but that always becomes the talking point. Why can't both sides just focus on something that can actually be done, like certain types of restrictions? Let's stop with the banning talk for once and take some baby steps first.
As for the stupid comparisons with guns and alcohol, there are many other things that kill more people than guns. Heart disease kills more people than anything. Doctor errors kill more people than guns. There are so many things that kill people but the one thing that really gets people fired up are mass deaths at the hands of one or just a few people. This is what separates guns from everything else. It's a combination of people, mental health and what they prefer to use when they decide to take another's life. They usually are not using alcohol or cars or knives to kill large groups of people.
How can we all come together to find a way to prevent people from collecting an arsenal of guns and ammo with the intent to murder a large group of people? Why is it so easy to do? All it takes is for a single person to flip that switch mentally, go buy a bunch of guns and ammo then find any large gathering of people and start mowing them down. A person could go through all of those steps in just a matter of a few days and there is nothing to stop them or even slow them down.
In my hometown there is a farm supply store that sells guns and ammo that is less than 1,000 feet away from our Catholic high school. If someone decided to they could go in, buy a semi-auto rifle, a box of ammo then walk out the door with it and across the street to the school and start taking out as many kids as they possible could. That whole process could be done in less than an hour. There would be nothing to stop them. It sounds crazy but when we keep seeing it happen in other parts of the nation it really gets pretty scary thinking about how easily it could actually happen. Just takes one person having a bad day and the switch flipping in their head.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
A couple of thoughts. First regarding the first bolded, the simple fact is that a lobbying group like the NRA knows full well that baby steps lead to big-boy steps. They know that when restrictions on certain guns, or required training prior to purchase, or longer wait times on purchases don't impact deaths by gun-and they won't-the next logical solution is to take bigger steps.
Adam Carrolla did a great bit about this and references the whole arc of smoking in a restaurant. Initially, smokers could smoke anywhere, then they were told by government that they had to go to a specific area of the restaurant, then they were told they could only smoke at the bar, then they were told they had to smoke outside, then they were told they had to smoke 20 yards from the entry, and on and on it went. Smokers just kept on getting up and moving. The NRA recognizes this and to any reasonable suggestion, they simply say "go #### yourself," because they know it will never stop. And they are correct on that point, IMO.
Why are mass shootings what get people fired up? They are horrible, visceral and get a ton of coverage by the media and heart disease and obesity don't, although far more people die from these issues. If we cared about saving lives we'd focus our efforts on eliminating sugar from peoples diets and tackle the fact that 1/3 rd of this country is some form of diabetes or pre-diabetes.
If you wanted to only focus on gun deaths for whatever reason, mass shootings are not the place to start. According to https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/ there have been 4,310 gun deaths so far in 2019, 110 of which have been in "mass shootings" (I put that in quotes because the definition of this isn't always the same). Regardless, this represents about 2 1/2% of the gun deaths in this country. For context, in the last 365 days in Chicago alone, there have been 370 gun related deaths. It's a tragedy every time, but mass shootings are not a statistically relevant occurrence in the grand scheme of things. Focusing on banning AR-15 rifles for example, also makes no sense at all. They contribute to such a small amount of gun deaths in this country. In 2016, ALL Rifles (not just AR-15 type, but all rifles) contributed to 6% of all gun homicides. It just seems like the ire is pointed at the wrong stuff a lot of the time.
Regarding your last point, I'd be fully ok with longer wait times to purchase a gun, required certified training prior to finalizing the purchase, etc. This may put a small dent in shootings-and that would be worth it-but I do not believe it would move the needle generally. Also, see my point about baby steps.
ETA: I should note that the 4,310 gun deaths referenced above do not include suicides.
ETA2: I want to say that I fully understand that the above makes me seem lacking in empathy. I'll admit that. I just think if people really want to enact change they need to focus on the big stuff first and work back from there, focus on the problem (mental health) also and not just the tool to carry out the deed.
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
What resulted from this? A lot of people quit smoking and a lot of non smokers quit being exposed to secondhand smoke. Sounds like it worked very well. Job well done.
Guns are not cigarettes. Cigarettes are not protected by the constitution so it's going to take a lot more get to those big steps that some people are so worried about. This was sorta of the point behind this thread. Some are worried that just taking small steps is only going to lead to guns being banned and therefore they think no steps should be taken. I'm not afraid of it happening.
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The comment about the Bushmaster refers to the situation that would take place if our government had degenerated so far as to have someone actually trying to confiscate my handgun. My rifle is there to fight a government that had gone over the Left edge and, seeing as how fully automatic weapons have been banned for a long time, it's the perfect weapon for fulfilling its mission...anything "bigger" would be illegal. Yes, I know that there are larger caliber weapons but they are not as effective for its intended purpose. I'm not a "nutcase". I haven't dug parapits around my house. I don't have a tower overlooking my land and my property is not surrounded by concertina wire.
I am not so paranoid that I expect anything to happen but I am not naive enough to think that what has happened to the citizens of other countries in the past, could not happen here and it always began with the disarming of citizens.
The 2nd Amendment is the one amendment that safeguards all of the others.
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
So to be clear, you think that "if if our government had degenerated so far as to have someone actually trying to confiscate my handgun," the law enforcement or military that would be sent to confiscate weapons from unwilling citizens could be effectively repelled with a rifle?
timschochet
Footballguy
Yes I’m sure the bushmaster is the perfect weapon for fighting off the government. You made a fine investment there. Our federal government will be quite helpless against your impressive arsenal.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I'm still laughing imagining how this scenario plays out in the minds of people like this. Imagine a government with an unfathomable amount of advanced weaponry at its disposal and the will and the political power to institute a gun ban in contravention of the Second Amendment being turned away by a dude with a rifle.
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