Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Sign in to follow this  
timschochet

The Presidential Pardon thread

Recommended Posts

I thought it would be interesting and fun to have a thread discussing Presidential pardons. I want to look at past pardons, particularly the controversial ones, to talk about whether they were good or bad, current pardons, potential pardons, posthumous pardons. I’d like to talk about people who have been discussed for pardon but not received it (for instance, Leonard Peltier) and why. And I want to include commutations in this thread as well. 

I’ll start on particular cases next week, but my question today is, are Presidential pardons a good idea in the first place? It seems like a throwback to the power of kings. Consider: we already have a jury system and independent judges to determine guilt or innocence. Then if that doesn’t achieve justice we have an appeals court. If justice is still not achieved, we have a circuit court, and beyond that we have a Supreme Court. My point is we have an awful lot of backstops to make sure there is justice. Given this, what is the purpose of an executive having the power to overrule all of them? 

Nearly every President has been accused of political corruption for some of their pardons: the most famous examples in modern history are Gerald Ford for Richard Nixon, Bill Clinton for Marc Rich, Donald Trump for Joe Arpeio. Putting aside the details of each case (we’ll get to them) couldn’t you argue that the pardon power will almost guarantee the potential of corruption? 

Interested to know your thoughts.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Trump pardons Conrad Black

Quote

 

Prior to Monday of last week, I had only once before, 18 years ago, received a telephone call from an incumbent president of the United States. I had not spoken to the current president since he took office. When my assistant said there was a call from the White House, I picked up, said “Hello” and started to ask if this was a prank (suspecting my friends in the British tabloid media), but the caller spoke politely over me: “Please hold for the president.” Two seconds later probably the best-known voice in the world said “Is that the great Lord Black?” I said “Mr. President, you do me great honour telephoning me.”

He could not have been more gracious and quickly got to his point: he was granting me a full pardon that would “Expunge the bad rap you got.” He had followed the case closely and offered to come to give evidence at my trial in Chicago in 2007 on one of the counts (I was acquitted of that one). He said that there would be some controversy, “But you can handle that better than anyone.” I asked “Do you authorize me to say that your motivation is that it was an unjust verdict?” He checked with the White House counsel, Pat Cipollone, who was in the room, if this would be a problem legally, and was told and affirmed to me that I could say that was his motive and that he was reversing an unjust verdict.

“We’ve known each other a long time,” the president told me, “but that wasn’t any part of the reason. Nor has any of the supportive things you’ve said and written about me.” I suggested that he knew ”better than anyone” the antics of some U.S. prosecutors. (I had had Robert Mueller as director of the FBI, which we caught installing illegal bugging devices in our home in New York and in many falsehoods; James Comey as deputy attorney-general, and Patrick Fitzgerald, now Comey’s counsel, as U.S. attorney in Chicago. They were all, as my distinguished caller on Monday has described Comey, “bad cops.”) We moved briefly on to generalities, greetings to wives, I thanked him for his call and again for the purpose of his call, and the conversation ended.

- By Conrad Black, convicted of fraud and obstruction of justice.

- This is the first pardon of a non-American since Marc Rich.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Trump pardons Conrad Black

- By Conrad Black.

- This is the first pardon of a non-American since Marc Rich.

"This has nothing to do with all the supportive things you've said about me".  Probably also doesn't have anything to do with the fact that it was an obstruction of justice case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unreal - 

The others are believed to include the case of a former Blackwater security contractor recently found guilty in the deadly 2007 shooting of dozens of unarmed Iraqis; the case of Maj. Mathew L. Golsteyn, the Army Green Beret accused of killing an unarmed Afghan in 2010; and the case of a group of Marine Corps snipers charged with urinating on the corpses of dead Taliban fighters.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, whoknew said:

Unreal - 

The others are believed to include the case of a former Blackwater security contractor recently found guilty in the deadly 2007 shooting of dozens of unarmed Iraqis; the case of Maj. Mathew L. Golsteyn, the Army Green Beret accused of killing an unarmed Afghan in 2010; and the case of a group of Marine Corps snipers charged with urinating on the corpses of dead Taliban fighters.

 

Eddie Gallagher’s own SEAL teammates say they messed with the sights on his rifle to screw up his aim because he kept targeting women and children. Definitely Trump’s kinda guy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Mister CIA said:

Pardons for murderers.  I think this is a new low. 

Trump: Hold my Arnold Palmer.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I think it’s an impeachable offense. Add it to the list.

This is a strongly worded statement. What is your level of concern?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I think it’s an impeachable offense. Add it to the list.

I wish Pelosi would fire up an impeachment hearing on a Monday and have it gift-wrapped and delivered to the Senate on Tuesday.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Mario Kart said:

This is a strongly worded statement. What is your level of concern?

Not all uses of the pardon power are proper. Some subvert the rule of law or the public trust in a way that should not be allowed. I think the currently contemplated pardons are improper because nullifying convictions for war crimes subverts the rule of law. But legally, the pardon power seems pretty absolute. The Constitution gives the President the legal authority to make these kinds of pardons. Since there’s no legal remedy to check the President against making improper pardons, the appropriate remedy is the political tool of impeachment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

Not all uses of the pardon power are proper. Some subvert the rule of law or the public trust in a way that should not be allowed. I think the currently contemplated pardons are improper because nullifying convictions for war crimes subverts the rule of law. But legally, the pardon power seems pretty absolute. The Constitution gives the President the legal authority to make these kinds of pardons. Since there’s no legal remedy to check the President against making improper pardons, the appropriate remedy is the political tool of impeachment.

I disagree. 

Unless you can prove corruption, what Trump is doing is a political action- he is pardoning these guys because, hey it’s our military and we’re tough and we protect our own. There is precedence for this, going all the way back to the Civil War. Most infamous modern example is Lt Calley I believe (My Lai massacre.) 

In any event, as repellant as what Trump is doing, it is not a high crime or misdemeanor IMO, and therefore the appropriate remedy is not to impeach him but to elect somebody else. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:
15 hours ago, Mister CIA said:

Pardons for murderers.  I think this is a new low. 

I think it’s an impeachable offense. Add it to the list.

Is it impeachable because you think murders shouldn't be pardoned? Or because you think war crime murders shouldn't be pardoned?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I disagree. 

Unless you can prove corruption, what Trump is doing is a political action- he is pardoning these guys because, hey it’s our military and we’re tough and we protect our own. There is precedence for this, going all the way back to the Civil War. Most infamous modern example is Lt Calley I believe (My Lai massacre.) 

In any event, as repellant as what Trump is doing, it is not a high crime or misdemeanor IMO, and therefore the appropriate remedy is not to impeach him but to elect somebody else. 

Wrong, wronger, wrongest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

Is it impeachable because you think murders shouldn't be pardoned? Or because you think war crime murders shouldn't be pardoned?

It’s the motivation. Pardons for murder (or for war crimes) would be okay if there was doubt about guilt (despite the conviction) or if individual circumstances made the sentence unfair, etc.

But if it’s just “people on my team don’t have to follow the law,” which appears to be the case here, the pardon is improper.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this