The Commish
Footballguy
Add part of a one time reset? I'm not sure. As part of a new solution going forward, yes. There needs to be a way out. Bankruptcy is offered just about everywhere else in that situation. No reason this should be different
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Elizabeth Warren wants to cancel a gigantic portion of student loans (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter supermike80
- Start date
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
For the most part, you can't have home and vehicle debt "erased" through bankruptcy. There are a few exceptions but you pretty much have to pay those debts or lose the collateral (repossession/foreclosure). What The Commish wrote was incorrect.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2011/11/23/why-the-government-is-to-blame-for-high-college-costs
The more money the federal government pumps into financial aid, the more money the colleges charge for tuition. Inflation-adjusted tuition and fees have tripled over those same 30 years while aid quadrupled; the aid is going up faster than the tuition. Thanks to the federal government, massive sums of money are available to pay for massive tuitions.
The information is out there if you'll look for it
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
Student loan interest rates kept going down from the 1980s (8-10%) to 2012 (3.4% for subsidized Stafford loans). The banks and the government made it much easier to borrow money, which made it much easier for colleges to raise prices.
[scooter]
Footballguy
Construction did not cause the tuition hikes.
Tuition hikes caused the construction.
whoknew
Footballguy
Obviously the government did not sit the person down and force him or her to borrow money for university. But the lack of funding certainly affected how much the person had to borrow.
And I get the impression you think that - instead of borrowing - they should have not gone to college or gone to the Army or whatever (similar to the alternatives presented above). And that's true. The student could have taken one of those alternatives.
But it seems to me a better policy - for the country as a whole - is to encourage people to better themselves and (if applicable) pull themselves out of poverty. There are few options better than a college education for doing that. And it sure would be nice if people could generally do that with minimal or no debt. You know - like rich people do.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
rich people have debt, they have costs .... don't hate on rich people because they earned what they have, that's just jealousy seeping through and its a hard mindset to break to look at everyone else and want what they have. There are some rich that inherit ....... but most rich have earned what they have either through hard work, good decisions etc
and think too .... everyone is rich when those who don't make as much as you look up to your income. Perspective
I can see allowing bankruptcy for college loans. But it seems fair it would have to be exactly like personal bankruptcy is now.
I'm sure there are people that know here, but my understanding is declaring personal bankruptcy now is not as simple as saying you no longer wish to pay your debt. It carries a pretty significant threshold and also carries some baggage afterward.
If I'm understanding the Warren proposal, the threshold for the equivalent of declaring student loan bankruptcy is having a pulse and not living in a household that makes over $250,000. That's quite a bit different.
GoBirds
Footballguy
While the system isn't working this plan is garbage for many reasons mentioned. If you want to propose a higher tax on billionaires and allocate it as an incentive/assistance to payback student loans (say $1 assistance to $2 paid) to help those motivated to dig out of the hole then go for it but giving a freebie to everyone is not the answer.
I find this fascinating from a pure political gamesmanship angle.
Obviously, anyone with student debt has lots of incentive to love this plan.
Anyone that's paid for their college or just paid off student debt has lots of incentive not to love this plan.
The question is on net, which is the bigger group?
It's a super interesting gamesmanship gamble Warren's taking here.
Obviously, anyone with student debt has lots of incentive to love this plan.
Anyone that's paid for their college or just paid off student debt has lots of incentive not to love this plan.
The question is on net, which is the bigger group?
It's a super interesting gamesmanship gamble Warren's taking here.
Biggest question I need to know - What's Mayor Pete think of this?
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Here's what he said about "free" college:
Link
Of course, Warren would counter that this proposal is being paid by the rich. However, my guess is Pete would still think benefits of taxing the rich should still go to the less fortunate.
Maybe I should find a better article than the one I linked to.
The last question asked by the interviewer was "It constantly blows my mind that this isn't one of the biggest issues for almost all politicians. No one in an entire generation is going be able to buy houses, or in some cases even basic consumer goods. This seems poised to completely tank the economy."
The last question asked by the interviewer was "It constantly blows my mind that this isn't one of the biggest issues for almost all politicians. No one in an entire generation is going be able to buy houses, or in some cases even basic consumer goods. This seems poised to completely tank the economy."
This one seems better.
Here's how the candidates stand on student debt. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/where-the-2020-candidates-stand-on-student-debt-and-college-affordability-2019-02-20
Here's how the candidates stand on student debt. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/where-the-2020-candidates-stand-on-student-debt-and-college-affordability-2019-02-20
pantherclub
Footballguy
Can we erase credit card debt too? That kind of loan can be easy to get too. That would be the sweetness for lots of people.
[scooter]
Footballguy
To add more, I LOVE the idea of affordable or free college.
My friend Bill Haslam helped create Tennessee Promise and it's fantastic. The red state that loves free college How Tennessee is making Bernie Sanders’ favorite education idea a reality.
That's not the same thing as a person looking at an offer, making a business decision to purchase something and take on debt for the purchase, then asking the rules be changed and deciding to not pay back the debt.
My friend Bill Haslam helped create Tennessee Promise and it's fantastic. The red state that loves free college How Tennessee is making Bernie Sanders’ favorite education idea a reality.
That's not the same thing as a person looking at an offer, making a business decision to purchase something and take on debt for the purchase, then asking the rules be changed and deciding to not pay back the debt.
timschochet
Footballguy
I wish we could. But of course we can’t. And I agree with you that in most cases student debts are the responsibility of the students. I reject the idea that it is our responsibility or the governments.
Nonetheless I support the idea because I think we would all benefit.
timschochet
Footballguy
And again it doesn’t matter what they ask, or what they deserve. IMO what matters is this question: do we benefit? Eliminating this debt gives these students more money to spend. That money, if spent correctly, grows the economy.
Why? When someone decides they'd rather not pay for the dinner they charged on their card, or the new jeans they bought or the groceries they purchased, why do they get to decide they don't have to pay for what they received?
That sounds like stealing.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
What I have noticed is that the highest rate of return goes to those who borrow the most (top-tier business schools, med school, etc.) and those who borrow the least (trade schools).
Those stuck in the middle are the ones who still borrow a lot of money and go to a fairly expensive school, but end up with a degree that has a salary ceiling of $50K/year.
Anyway, it seems to me that eventually the "middle" group will realize that the "college experience" isn't worth the price (relative to the potential salary), so you'll see more and more kids going into trade schools or community colleges.
Those stuck in the middle are the ones who still borrow a lot of money and go to a fairly expensive school, but end up with a degree that has a salary ceiling of $50K/year.
Anyway, it seems to me that eventually the "middle" group will realize that the "college experience" isn't worth the price (relative to the potential salary), so you'll see more and more kids going into trade schools or community colleges.
Wait @Joe Summer Are you daring to suggest people consider the cost of something and weigh it against the potential returns and having the audacity to choose a path that makes financial sense for them and doesn't depend on racking up a ton of debt then having it erased? What is wrong with you.
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timschochet
Footballguy
Because if we somehow found a way to eliminate all debt overnight, our economy would boom like never before. We’d have 100% growth. It would be incredible.
Of course that’s a fantasy; it can’t ever happen. But it would be great if we could wipe away all debt. Incidentally we’ve done this a few times for other countries: we saved Western Europe from Communism by doing it (see the Marshall Plan). But we can’t do it for ourselves.
Who pays the accounts receivable for all those companies who in good faith held up their end of the bargain and delivered to the customer the dinner or the jeans or the groceries?
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Shouldn't the question be "what's the best use of the money?" instead of "do we benefit?"?
LOL. Nice logic. They didn't spend their money on college correctly...but if given a second chance they will surely their new free money correctly.
timschochet
Footballguy
Well that’s the point. It can’t be done. I’m saying if it could it would be awesome.
timschochet
Footballguy
As I indicated I would tie it directly to a new home buying program. Basically you can transfer your debt to a first mortgage.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
In all fairness, a generic college education used to be a ticket to a "higher than average white collar living wage". You didn't have to weigh the cost vs. the return, because the return was practically guaranteed.
I don't fault people for having had that mentality for the past 60 years.
But times are changing. I think people have already started to realize that there are other ways to earn a living wage, and a lot of colleges are going to discover that their enrollment numbers are suddenly dropping.
I don't fault people for having had that mentality for the past 60 years.
But times are changing. I think people have already started to realize that there are other ways to earn a living wage, and a lot of colleges are going to discover that their enrollment numbers are suddenly dropping.
timschochet
Footballguy
pantherclub
Footballguy
pantherclub
Footballguy
this makes no sense, you live in a disney movie. its not cut and dry like that. those things that were purchased cost money to make etc.
timschochet
Footballguy
I already explained but here’s a pretty good article on why:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/04/19/student-loan-debt-can-make-buying-a-home-almost-impossible.html
It explains why the National Association of Realtors is very much for this idea. Like them I come at this from the perspective of a business proposal- it’s a way to grow the economy.
[scooter]
Footballguy
pantherclub
Footballguy
why are you assuming that those with debt forgiven will run straight into a mortgage situation? how do you know they dont already have one? this whole thing is just moronic.
timschochet
Footballguy
pantherclub, earlier you wrote “it’s a terrible idea”. As usual, you didn’t offer any explanation- I can’t count the number of times you have expressed an opinion very firmly without ever backing it up with any kind of facts or reasonable argument.
I mention this only because you ought to consider that before you question the thinking abilities of other people.
The fundamental problem won't go away. They still won't have enough income to pay off the debt.
I'm not sure of that. I graduated college in 1987 with a Psychology degree with a minor in English. That qualifies you to be a graduate student.
I think there were lots of majors in years past that were no sure thing to a higher than average white collar job. Seems like about the same as now.
timschochet
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
True but the difference here is that college graduates are assumed to have better jobs and more ability to pay than some of the people the sub primes went to. I think that’s a reasonable assumption.
pantherclub
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Besides the national Association of Realtors, several homebuilders associations back this idea, and the Chamber of Commerce is also positive. This isn’t just some lefty plan that only progressives are into. Like BIG, it represents some alternative thinking that a lot of economists believe will grow our economy exponentially.
pantherclub
Footballguy
i think its pretty obvious why people think its a terrible idea. it was covered well before my initial post. i shouldnt have to write a dissertation on why its stupid. its patently obvious. bottom line is forgiving debt is rewarding irresponsibility.
pantherclub
Footballguy
of course they would tim, why wouldn't they? its just another action by the government that would potentially make them more money. Come on man.
[scooter]
Footballguy
I think you're assuming too much. The college graduates who have better jobs are already buying houses.
