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Frank Clark to Chiefs (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter BoltNlava
- Start date
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Didn't make sense at first why they'd trade away Ford just to trade for Clark.
But they're transitioning to a 4-3 and needed a DE instead of an OLB.
Not a bad trade for them, I guess.
But they're transitioning to a 4-3 and needed a DE instead of an OLB.
Not a bad trade for them, I guess.
Seattle won this deal by a mile. Not sure what KC is thinking, especially with Clark wanting a new deal.
What has Clark done to make anyone assume he's better than Ford or Houston? Both of whom were let go for cheaper.
Decent chance a better pass rusher would have been there at #29.
Chiefs have had a very strange off season all around, and dealing a 1st for a guy who has never been better than a decent starter is the tip of the iceberg. This is a team that looks to have taken multiple steps backward, and that is assuming nothing happens with Tyreek Hill.
Great move by Seattle, who is quietly rebuilding, they just made the playoffs last year, and threw people off that. Russell Wilson, Doug Baldwin, and Bobby Wagner are all that is left of the Super Bowl years.
What has Clark done to make anyone assume he's better than Ford or Houston? Both of whom were let go for cheaper.
Decent chance a better pass rusher would have been there at #29.
Chiefs have had a very strange off season all around, and dealing a 1st for a guy who has never been better than a decent starter is the tip of the iceberg. This is a team that looks to have taken multiple steps backward, and that is assuming nothing happens with Tyreek Hill.
Great move by Seattle, who is quietly rebuilding, they just made the playoffs last year, and threw people off that. Russell Wilson, Doug Baldwin, and Bobby Wagner are all that is left of the Super Bowl years.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
He’s gonna command a 20 mil a year deal. Wonder if that was Tyreeks money. Chiefs are becoming woman abusing central.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Clark is better than I realized.
Over the past three years he's averaging:
- 40 tackles
- over 10 sacks
- over 2 forced fumbles
- over 1 fumble recovery
- over 20 QB hits
Clark provides pass rush and he is a play maker they need on the EDGE after moving 3-4 DE Chris Jones inside to DT.
At first I thought they gave up too much but the 29th pick is a low first and they improve their position in the 3rd round this year. After checking the numbers and how few players in the league have had at least 9 sacks over the past three years to note his rare value. I don't think KC could have done any better.
It is a good trade for them but also a good deal for Seattle IMHO.
Just awful by KC. They could have signed Trey Flowers, a better player, for less, and not given up a 1 and a future 2.
caustic
Footballguy
I don't like this deal for KC, but I disagree with the bolded.
Ford had a really nice season in 2018, but that was the first of his career. 2017 was a 2-sack dud (injury), he had an excellent six-game run in 2016 where he collected 9 sacks but disappeared for the rest of the season (injury), and he had only 5.5 total sacks in 2014 & 2015 as he developed and fought through more injuries. He was very unreliable, and with the switch to a 4-3 defense, it was reasonable for KC to opt out of giving him $18MM/year.
Houston was a solid player but was also dealing with frequent injuries, never having double digit sacks after that monstrous 22-sack season in '14. He was aging and wasn't worth the 20-some million dollars he was owed in 2019, so I think it was reasonable to part ways with him as well.
Clark, on the other hand, has been extremely consistent and reliable thus far, playing in 62 of 64 games and averaging over 10 sacks/year over the last three seasons. He's also a much better fit for a 4-3 defense than Ford.
As far as pick 29 is concerned: KC has made it clear that their best chance for a ring is while Mahomes is on his rookie deal. With this in mind, I think it's fair to opt for a proven quantity over an unproven rookie. Since 2010, edge rushers taken in the first round have averaged about 4.5 sacks in their first year. To be competitive in the upcoming year, they could not have entered the season with an edge rushing committee of Emmanuel Ogbah, Breeland Speaks, Alex Okafor, and some rookie. Clark is a proven quantity who should contribute 10+ sacks immediately and shore up what was looking like a pretty abysmal front four.
Clark doesn't suck, its just that they are giving a monster deal, and lots of draft capital to fix a problem, that they didn't need to create, and its very possible, I'd argue likely, that they are going to fail. I also wonder how much of Clark's production is Pete Carroll related. Guys like Bruce Irvin and Cliff Avril put up their best numbers for him.
They got a 2nd for Ford, then traded a 1st and possibly that 2nd for Clark. Is Clark better than Ford, I'd answer no, but he's been more consistent, but even then, he's not an additional 1st rounder better.
Clark is now the 3rd highest paid defensive player in the NFL, behind only Mack and Donald, 2 HOF'ers in their primes. By comparison, Clark is just a guy, combine that with off field issues, which seem to really be attracting themselves to KC lately, and this feels to me like a move we look back in a couple years and wonder what KC was thinking.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Clark is not just a guy. He is getting paid. He has serious off field issues in his past.
KC is switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3 so Dee Ford and Justin Houston didn't fit. They needed a starting 4-3 DE and got one of the best in the league.
The draft compensation is low for the value.. KC would not get a sure thing like Clark's production in the draft.
Clark is only 25 years old. Dee Ford is 28 and Justin Houston is 30. He is in his prime at the perfect age to build around and not a Dee Ford coming off a career season after an inconsistent 2 sack season at a position that does not fit the scheme they are transitioning to.
You may not like it but it really does make sense for KC who have two more years under Mahomes contract to make a big move like this.
I like the deal for both teams.
caustic
Footballguy
If you head over to the draft pick value charts, 2019’s 1.29 + the 2020 2nd is roughly equivalent to 1.21 in 2019. That’s not terrible. Maybe someone like Clelin Ferrell who’s taken in that range develops into a Clark-level DE, but that’s a huge hypothetical. The more I think this over, the less I dislike it for KC.
ICON211
Footballguy
Dee Ford had 2 sacks in 2017 because he only played 6 games. Frank Clark is a good, but as you mentioned has off-field issues. Frank Clark is not worth a 1 and a 2 if Dee Ford is only worth a 2. Factor in that they gave him an enormous contract and this deal does not look good for KC. Massive overpay on the contract and the draft compensation it took to get him.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Clark hasn't had any off field issues since turning pro, has he?
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
caustic
Footballguy
That’s part of the problem, though. He missed 11 games in 2014, missed 5 games in 2015, tried to play through an injury in 2016 and was a non-factor (0 sacks through the last eight games), and missed 10 games in 2017. His healthy season in ‘18 was a pretty big anomaly.
barackdhouse
Footballguy
Yep and yep. Although I assumed Seattle was taking a top WR early no matter what. And to be honest if I were them I'd take two. Baldwin is on his last leg and Lockett is a role player, a good one, but they need a true #1 in the worst way.
ex-ghost
Footballguy
I look at it as a way for them to trade back with two first round picks now. Schneider can pick up a few more seconds, thirds, fourths.....
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
What the Jets were said to be offering.
https://twitter.com/ParkerLewisJR/status/1120760024664424454
Parker Lewis @ParkerLewisJR
Sounds like the Jets would've been willing to do a Frank Clark trade that included a first round pick swap (#3 for #21). The Chiefs deal probably makes more sense over the long haul for the Seahawks, but sitting at #3 on draft day would have been amazing.
11:43 AM - 23 Apr 2019
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Why would Seattle not pounce on that deal?
They could have taken a blue-chip player at #3 or traded-down a couple of times to parlay the #3 pick into extra 2nd round picks in this draft and 'probably' at least one extra future 1st round pick and still get a 1st round pick higher than #29 or even higher than their 1st round pick at #21.
https://twitter.com/ParkerLewisJR/status/1120760024664424454
Parker Lewis @ParkerLewisJR
Sounds like the Jets would've been willing to do a Frank Clark trade that included a first round pick swap (#3 for #21). The Chiefs deal probably makes more sense over the long haul for the Seahawks, but sitting at #3 on draft day would have been amazing.
11:43 AM - 23 Apr 2019
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Why would Seattle not pounce on that deal?
They could have taken a blue-chip player at #3 or traded-down a couple of times to parlay the #3 pick into extra 2nd round picks in this draft and 'probably' at least one extra future 1st round pick and still get a 1st round pick higher than #29 or even higher than their 1st round pick at #21.
Dez
Footballguy
Isn't Ford playing DE for SF ?
https://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/depthcharts.aspx
DEFENSE - SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS
SFLDE94Thomas, Solomon 17/195Street, Kentavius 18/471Lewis-Moore, Kapron SF19
SFLDT91Armstead, Arik 15/193Jones, DJ 17/661THORNTON, CEDRIC SF18
SFRDT99Buckner, DeForest 16/196Day, Sheldon W/Jax
SFRDE00Ford, Dee T/KC9
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caustic
Footballguy
Yes, and Houston will be playing 4-3 DE for Indianapolis, so it's clear that other GMs see them as potential fits in a 4-3. We'll see. Another wrinkle is that Spagnuolo himself favors big powerful edge rushers, which Ford is not. Houston is, but his production was not matching is pay grade. KC is essentially giving Houston's $20MM to Clark now, which should be a more productive use of that money.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Ford has missed a lot of games (Clark has missed 2 games in 4 years), Ford is older, isn't a fit for the new scheme, Clark has been consistently better. Houston is on the wrong side of 30, Clark is only 25 years old.
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Brandon Kiley @BKSportsTalk
Alright, listen, I’m not saying Frank Clark is Khalil Mack. He’s not. But I found these numbers over the last 3 seasons to be interesting.
- Frank Clark - 47 games, 32 sacks, 31 TFL, 66 QB Hits
- Khalil Mack - 46 games, 34 sacks, 39 TFL, 66 QB Hits
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Matt VerderameVerified account @MattVerderame 3h3 hours ago
Just spoke to one general manager who had this to say about the #Chiefs move... "Comparing Dee Ford to Frank Clark is like comparing Joe Flacco to Patrick Mahomes."
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Louis RiddickVerified account @LRiddickESPN 5h5 hours ago
#Chiefs need pass rushers in their switch to a 4-3 that can play the run too! Frank Clark will do that for them better than anyone in this draft can. He is one of the best young DE’s in the #nfl.
barackdhouse
Footballguy
Yeah absolutely. And when I said *early*, I meant relative to the WR ranks, not necessarily that they would be 1st rounders.ex-ghost said:
seahawk 17
Footballguy
Literally on his last leg. I would be surprised to see Baldwin ready week 1.barackdhouse said:
kittenmittens
Footballguy
If that's true Seattle made a huge mistake... Why would they not take the value of the number 3 pick? More than likely there is a QB needy team that will reach for that pick to get ahead of the Raiders and Giants. If not, you have elite talent like Bosa or Williams.Bracie Smathers said:
The Jets would be idiots to offer that given who is going to be there at 3, but the Jets are the biggest idiots in he NFL so...
caustic
Footballguy
We see this all the time, though. Good young player lands a massive, record-breaking contract which looks preposterous until the next guy gets paid, then the guy after that makes even more, and as the process continues and the salary cap continues to increase, that first big contract looks cheaper and cheaper.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
JoeJoe88 said:
This means nothing to Williams’ status. KC wasn’t likely to burn the 1st rounder on a RB prior to the trade and they still have 2 2nd rounders and a 3rd rounder this year.
Williams owners sure spend a lot of time whistling through the graveyard.
Hooper31
Footballguy
barackdhouse said:
The current administration in Seattle nearly won back to back titles starting undrafted free agents on the outside at WR. I wouldn't mind them taking a WR, but I have my doubts that Carrol and Schneider value the WR position as much as you think they should.
barackdhouse
Footballguy
Well that may very well be. I guess I was saying what I think they should do, not necessarily what they will do. I like this WR class and see no reason why they couldn't get two of the top, say 6 or 7 in this class. I'd be surprised if they did. Certainly one, though.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
ICON211
Footballguy
Because of a couple plays? I bet all guys wish they got paid off a highlight reel.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Three consecutive years of top production.
Not one fluke play but bull rush that lifts up NFL OTs and drives them back into the QB. I've only seen a bull rush like this from two other DEs, Dwight Freeny who had a low center and the Minister where if he got hands on someone simply overpowered OTs, Clark has a bull rush that looks like a combination of the two. Its not a highlight reel, it shows something I've never seen.
People think KC lost their mind and made this deal without knowing the price they pad and the value they got in return.
That's a very low bar for top production, if Clark's last 3 years qualify.
He has 1 season in the top-10 in sacks, a 7th place finish in 2018.
I'll maintain that Ford and Houston are both better players than Clark, but I'll agree Clark is younger and more durable. The fitting the 4-3 vs 3-4 thing is BS to me. The Colts and 49ers both think Houston and Ford respectively can play DE. It could be a case of Spagnoulo wanting his guy, but that would be a red flag, as he was a crummy hire, and likely downgrade from Sutton to begin with. Also, more than 50% of the game is spent in nickel, more if the offense is putting up 30+ weekly, making 4-3/3-4 almost irrelevant.
There also isn't evidence that Clark is much better against the run than Ford or Houston. PFF graded all 3 as pretty poor run defenders, separated by less than 4 overall points. Clark was at the top, but he was 14+ points behind as a pass rusher, and that was in Clark's(and Ford's to be fair) best season.
I think a big issue with trading the picks, is that pass rush was never an issue for the Chiefs. They had 3 guys with 9 or more sacks last year, the issue was that they couldn't cover anyone, which smart, accurate QB's like Brady and Rivers picked apart, before any pass rusher could have a chance to get there, and now they have fewer assets to fix that. They aren't going to have a better pass rush this year, and they don't have as much to fix the coverage with. No matter what someone thinks of Clark, they didn't fix their biggest 2018 problem, and its almost a certainty that the 2019 defense, and team in general is going to be worse.
I saw the article about the Jets offering the #3 pick, for Clark and the #21. Sheesh! Sometimes these teams need to be saved from themselves. The best move the Jets made this offseason, was the Seahawks rejecting that trade.
Hooper31
Footballguy
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
ICON211
Footballguy
True, but it also comes with a 5th year option which a 2nd does not. Even if it was a second I still wouldn't trade Dee Ford and a second for Frank Clark AND give him that contract. I hate the whole 4-3 3-4 argument too. A good coach should be able to figure out how to use talented players.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
Chiefs got out from under Houston's huge contract which he wasn't living up too....Ford had one good year and would be looking for top dollar....they got a second for him.....then basically gave up a crap shoot #29 pick for one of the best/most consistent pass rushers and edge players in the league while basically giving him Houston's money....you know what you are getting with Clark....Chiefs are in win now mode....Bradley Chubb was 5th pick last year and had 12 sacks....Clark is going to give that to you at the price of #29 and a second down the road....yeah the contract looks a little steep right now, but with the salary cap increasing and other guys signing down the road, it won't look that bad.....Clark is a good fit for the defense....I'm ok with this move....its not great, but it's not as terrible as some are trying to make it out to be because they don't "like" the Chiefs and just want to slam on them....if you step back and look, it's a pretty solid move and we will see how it plays out....I like the pretty much guaranteed production they will get....
caustic
Footballguy
Clark's contract deals are out: https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2019/4/25/18514769/we-now-have-the-details-of-frank-clarks-five-year-contract-with-the-chiefs
Chiefs can cut him after year 3 with only $7MM in dead money, so that's not a bad structure for the team.
Chiefs can cut him after year 3 with only $7MM in dead money, so that's not a bad structure for the team.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
This is what I think some people are missing. Just because SEA got an A+ in the trade doesn't mean KC couldn't get an A-.
People don't really think of KC as being in a window because Mahomes is young but he'll be the highest paid player in the history or the NFL in a couple of years. They have a small window before that contract will kick in and throw their entire salary cap into shambles. Kelce is a monster but he takes a lot of hits as well as gives them. They don't have to wait for a '19 rookie to develop into a pass rusher(how long did it take for the penny to drop for Ford?). He steps on the field as an elite pass rusher. With PIT imploding and NE riding Brady into his 40's the AFC is pretty wide open right now.
I think it was a good trade for both teams. Two teams that needed very different things from the deal.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
I understand the NFL isn’t composed of choir boys but this just seemed like a strange trade acquisition given recent history with the franchise.
