Sammy3469
Footballguy
Please, he knows exactly what he’s doing. This whole Trump is an ignorant rube is frankly wrong. He has a history and knows word matter.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
Trump on "Very Fine People" on both sides (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
msommer
Footballguy
Well, Trump was asked about the "Unite the RIght" rally that happened in CHarlottesville. It seems you are very attached to the notion he was answering about something else.
timschochet
Footballguy
Why? This is the part I don’t get. I’ve offered in this thread several examples of Trump making a bigoted remark and trying to explain it away later on. Why are you so willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one?
msommer
Footballguy
McJose
Footballguy
Super simple. Because Biden said "this is what Trump SAYS". And Trump replied with "No it's not. If that wasn't clear, let me clarify for you. And then Trump SAYS very clearly those people should be totally condemned.
Once he SAYS that, I'd think it would be unwise for Biden to claim Trump didn't SAY that.
Understood. I think a lot of people will agree with you.
I think it can be a good and productive conversation to have and even though it can be potentially explosive, I've seen some examples that it can be discussed thoughtfully and rationally.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Joe, I like what Biden said and did in that opener because what matters is the truth. Nothing else.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
You keep talking about these statue protestors. but there was not one person at that rally who can be properly described as simply "not wanting to remove every statue or street sign" and nothing more. Not a single one. Even if we give them every benefit of the doubt and assume that they innocently showed up for a "Unite the Right" rally to protest the statute removal or whatever and were shocked to find that there were Nazis and KKK people involved (side note:
), they are still people who saw the swastikas and heard the chants and decided to stick around. Those people suck. They should be condemned clearly and forcefully by everyone, especially the President of the United States. Instead Trump did the exact opposite. Even if you are willing to believe that he was referring only to some fictional innocent statute-protectors who had no idea what they were getting into (see previous side note), then he's still had two years to clear that up and do everything he can to distance himself from the white nationalist movement. Instead he's done the exact opposite at every opportunity since then, even embracing the "nationalist" label. He lost the benefit of the doubt on this one a looooong time ago, and it's only gotten more preposterous to give it to him since then.
timschochet
Footballguy
Except that’s not what happened. What happened, to be absolutely precise is this: Trump made his original comments, and then doubled down on them on 3 separate occasions and refused to clarify them for 5 days. Then on the 6th day he retracted what he said, claimed that he never meant to defend white supremacists, and in the same breath attacked the media for reporting “fake news”. About a week after this clarification, Trump in front of one of his rallies again referred to the neo Nazis as “very fine people” without any clarification.
That’s the “clarity” you’re referring to and it’s this man’s pattern: make the comment, defend it, defend it, deny saying it, clarify it, attack the media, say it again at a rally. Every damn time.
Ruffrodys05
IBL Representative
After all the evidence to the contrary how does anyone even consider that DJT isn't a racist? He displays it daily. He thinks racists are very fine people. Period.
Shocker but we'll just disagree there. What Biden says Trump said is now something Trump very clearly says the opposite.
With that being true, it seems like unwise to make that the focus of your presidential announcement. But that's just my opinion.
Sorry to drop out but I'll leave this to you for a bit. Football work to do.
timschochet
Footballguy
You just keep repeating this, including the words “very clearly” each time even though it’s exactly the opposite. I’m not sure why, but OK.
Mainly because it's very clear?
Ok. Really out now. Sorry to be rude and bail. This is all I have here for a bit.
Last edited by a moderator:
timschochet
Footballguy
Tim 101 teaches that when you use words like “very clear”, you should never apply them to a guy who goes back and forth several times the way Trump did after Charlottesville, you should never apply them to excuse Trump of any charge of bigotry, and you should never apply them to Donald Trump, period.Welcome to arguing with Tim 101.
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
Trump said "white nationalists should be condemned totally." Joe (Bryant) takes Trump at his word on that.
On the other hand, Joe (Biden) said "the president assigned a moral equivalence between those spreading hate and those with the courage to stand against it".
It seems like Joe (Bryant) believes that the above statement by Joe (Biden) is false, because Donald (Trump) was not technically referring to white nationalists when he said "very fine people".
[scooter]
Footballguy
It's a perfect metaphor, actually. This is why you can't attack Trump for the ambiguous things that he says and does, because you get bogged down in arguments over semantics.Welcome to arguing with Tim 101.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Do I understand correctly that the majority of this thread thinks Trump thinks white nationalists are "very fine people"?
I think Trump is a racist but I wouldn't go as far as what you guys are saying and apparently what Biden stated (I haven't watched the video). I agree with Joe Bryant's and, I think, Sinn Fein's takes on this.
I think Trump is a racist but I wouldn't go as far as what you guys are saying and apparently what Biden stated (I haven't watched the video). I agree with Joe Bryant's and, I think, Sinn Fein's takes on this.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I think you're giving him way too much credit for making subtle distinctions in ideology.
The bottom line is this: everyone who was there on the side of the protestors was either a racist Nazi type or someone who was willing to tolerate and stand with racist Nazi types because they share a common cause. That accurately describes every person who was there on that "side." Obviously the former is far worse than the latter, but the latter is still an unmistakably awful person. Describing either group as "very fine people" is wrong and repulsive and a historically awful position for a President to take. After all it's not like Trump had some special insight into these people that informed a broader judgment of their character. He didn't identify a bunch of them and research their backgrounds and find out that they help little old ladies cross the street or something. Literally all he knew about them is that they stood with the Nazis.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
I agree with your take other than I suspect Trump did not know who was in the crowd. Obviously he should have done much more to clarify and correct his statement but, as we know, Trump is terrible about correcting his wrongs.
Regardless of Trump's personal feelings of white supremacists, he knows that speaking badly about them won't sit well with his base so he continues encouraging them. And that's just as bad if not worse.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
You see, I don't agree with this either. I think it's quite clear that the vast majority of Trump supporters/Trump's base disavow white supremacy.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
It's red meat for his base. There's going to be about a gazillion "Trump moments" brought up by the DNC POTUS hopefuls in the next 19 months. Better get used to it.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. Most of his base are not white nationalist/white supremacists themselves of course, but they clearly are willing to tolerate their presence in their midst. I've literally never heard a Trump supporter on this board express genuine concern about the proliferation of white nationalism amongst the Trump/GOP base. Not a one. I'm sure someone has at some point, but the relative silence is deafening.
Contrast that with, for example, the efforts of the UK Labour Party to rid themselves of anti-Semitism. Their anti-Semitism problem is much less significant than the Trumplican white nationalism "problem" IMO, and yet its still a major concern for them and they address it regularly, and even those significant efforts haven't been enough to convince some Labour members to leave the party over it. The GOP takes committee assignments away from Steve King because public pressure left them basically no choice and considers the job done.
Last edited by a moderator:
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
And it's hard not to notice that this thread is several hours old, and unlike every other thread in this forum it has not gotten a single post from a Trump supporter. Nobody willing to engage in a real defense of his "very fine people" comment, nobody who felt the need to clarify that there should not be any place for white nationalism in the GOP or the Trump base and that it sickens them that it persists, regardless of how you interpret the president's comments. Just more deafening silence.
Again, I don't think these people are white supremacists themselves, or that they're necessarily bad people. I just think they don't care all that much about standing (figuratively) shoulder to shoulder with white supremacists and working towards their common goals. And that is frightening.
Skoo
Footballguy
And those bolded people, you think they would willingly march alongside people chanting "Jews will not replace us"?
jomar
Footballguy
can you provide an instance of Trump condemning white nationalists? in your quote, he says they SHOULD be condemned, but I don't actually see him ever do it. something along the lines of 'white nationalists are not welcome in my party, I do not want their support, I think their views are deplorable', anything really. I can't think of a time off the top of my head where he's said anything remotely critical of white nationalists
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
HellToupee
Footballguy
[scooter]
Footballguy
Dickies
Footballguy
This.
I will add that even if people were there solely to protest the statue being removed I wouldn’t call them ‘fine people’ either. That statue was a relic of the Jim Crow Era and was put there to remind black people of their place in society. At best these are people who are willing to march with neo-Nazis to protest something they are completely uninformed about.
[scooter]
Footballguy
It's possible that there were a few pro-statue protesters who did not hear the chants about Jews and did not see the Nazi flags.
And because that possibility exists, Trump and his supporters get to go around proclaiming that Trump said nothing that was false, that his words are being twisted, that he's misunderstood, blah blah blah.
It's the same tactic that was used when Trump said Mexicans were "rapists" and "bringing drugs". As long as the line can be applied to one single person, then it's not a lie.
This is how sociopaths operate.
skol asylum
Footballguy
I'm a reasonable guy that's willing to compromise. The statues can stay if Trump goes.
whoknew
Footballguy
I think your point (and some others in this thread) doesn't give Trump enough credit. I think Trump knows that white supremacists are part of his base and he was careful to walk that line to not offend them while also trying not to outright say, "Go whities!"
He panders/dog whistles to the racist part of his base all the time. This was no different.
Given the context of Trump's statement, there really was not much wrong with the entirety of what he said. Given the context of the event, it was pretty stupid and understandably offensive. Still it is kind of silly to still be upset about it and making it a central campaign theme.
Dickies
Footballguy
Have we heard from any people who were there to simply protest the removal of the statues? I haven’t and the reports from people who were there said they didn’t see any of them.
Even if we assume there were 10 people there marching with Nazis simply to protest statue removal, Trump’s statement in the context it was used is reprehensible.
Rove!
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Standard unresponsive minimizing of Trump's awfulness on the issue, paired with a smug drive-by insult about how everyone else's concerns about their president are "silly" and an unwillingness to engage any of the several legitimate criticisms of Trump/GOP behavior on the issue of white supremacists presented here. All from a man who speaks frequently about the difficulties faced by whites/Christians/men in America and who complains multiple times a day about the words and actions of a first-term congresswoman from another district.
I wish any of it was surprising.
Last edited by a moderator:
Bottom line - Trump had two choices:
1. Give a full rebuke of the Nazis marching.
2. Say what he did
You can try to explain away as much as you want that he was just talking about the people marching to defend the monuments but that’s a cop-out to try and save face. Anyone there for just that purpose probably got the heck out of dodge as soon as they were joined by the Nazis. Anyone there that didn’t share the views of the Nazis aren’t going to have a problem with the President condemning Nazis.
Trump said what he did because he was afraid to upset the Nazis/white nationalists, whatever you want to call them. Does they make Trump a racist or Nazi? Not at all, but it means that he’s desperate to keep their support and that might be worse. That’s what he stands for.
The saddest thing is that he didn’t need to say it. If he would have just condemned the Nazis, his base would have explained it away as Trump just saying what he has to publicly but he didn’t really mean it.
1. Give a full rebuke of the Nazis marching.
2. Say what he did
You can try to explain away as much as you want that he was just talking about the people marching to defend the monuments but that’s a cop-out to try and save face. Anyone there for just that purpose probably got the heck out of dodge as soon as they were joined by the Nazis. Anyone there that didn’t share the views of the Nazis aren’t going to have a problem with the President condemning Nazis.
Trump said what he did because he was afraid to upset the Nazis/white nationalists, whatever you want to call them. Does they make Trump a racist or Nazi? Not at all, but it means that he’s desperate to keep their support and that might be worse. That’s what he stands for.
The saddest thing is that he didn’t need to say it. If he would have just condemned the Nazis, his base would have explained it away as Trump just saying what he has to publicly but he didn’t really mean it.
Exactly. They're a huge part of his base and he's not about to say anything to lose voters.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Another example of Trump's support of white supremacists is when he was asked about Steve King's disgusting statement about not understanding white white supremacy has become a bad thing. Trump said he didn't hear it and knew nothing about it. ROFL He was afraid to say anything negative about King or the racist statement. Wouldn't want to anger his voters.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Nobody's gonna sit through an 11 minute youtube video from a crazed mediocre cartoonist. If there's a counterargument to be made, feel free to make it yourself.
BroadwayG
Footballguy
It seemed pretty obvious to me that he was condemning the violence on both sides, then calling the peaceful protesters on both sided 'very fine people'
Unfortunately, since he may be the worst speaker in the history of public service, he didn't make any sort of explicit transition from talking about the violence to talking about the protests.
I think this is a very poor bandwagon for Biden's campaign to hop on when there are countless other options.
Unfortunately, since he may be the worst speaker in the history of public service, he didn't make any sort of explicit transition from talking about the violence to talking about the protests.
I think this is a very poor bandwagon for Biden's campaign to hop on when there are countless other options.
Because your mind is made up and you will continue to read into what Trump said and how the media spins it, instead of listening to what was actually stated. The media had misrepresented what Trump actually said and the Trump-haters eat it up instead of objectively reading the actual words.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
No, because I don't want to sit through an 11 minute youtube video from a crazed mediocre cartoonist.
As I said before, if there's an argument to be made that you think effectively counters what I've already written here about Trump's statement and his broader tendency to condone white supremacists and other hate groups, feel free to make it yourself.
Similar threads
