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Wealth inequality, you okay with it? (1 Viewer)

TripItUp said:
Yeah, we are already doing that . 

my property taxes alone are 1/3 the average household income. 

The moderately wealthy are getting taxed to hell. 
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Here's the disconnect then - to most folks (me included), a million-plus annual income is not moderately wealthy. It's plain old wealthy. 

 
timschochet said:
This is an extremely dangerous form of thinking. Beyond the fact that it’s a highly disputed theory. 

It may not be racism per se, but it’s certainly a kissing cousin. 
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uncalled for 

and there is a single parent epidemic within the culture that is a direct result of all of this.  

 
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I think it's important to make a distinction between wealth and income.

IMO our system is reasonably fair with respect to correlating income during one's lifetime with one's contribution to the GDP. We can talk for hours about how it can be improved (e.g. closing loopholes, etc.) but I'm talking in general. Work hard, smart and long....get paid.

What's inherently unfair is the head start many receive through transferring assets across generations. Anyone who's starting completely from scratch knows that capital takes a long, long, long time to accumulate. Those who are born into wealth have a huge advantage. If managed correctly, that advantage can widen and last for generations. 

So if I were king I would start with a substantial increase in the estate tax. Not completely but more of a use it or lose it philosophy vs. what we have now.

 
TripItUp said:
I believe it’s a false premise that the lack of wealth redistribution is the cause of poverty/inequality or that it would even fix it.  It’s a short term bandaid for a larger problem. 

Off the cuff, here are what I believe to be the root causes of our 13.5% poverty rate.  

1) Cultural - USA has sub cultures that simply don’t have work ethic and discipline 

2) mental illness - well documented the link between mental illness and homelessness - no simple solution 

3) Drug/alcohol use - no simple solution 

4) inadequate education for the lower class 

5) laziness/poor diet/exercise

6) immigrant population - that’s part of the process, almost all of our ancestors came over as impoverished immigrants 

Explain to me how wealth redistribution addresses any of these root causes?
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I find it interesting that you listed all these, but didn't seem to take them into consideration in your original post about why you talk about why people can't get to where you are.  Or do you think that these issues are the small % and is just the 5% you talk about in your post?

Like I said I think there are 100s of reasons why a person in your situation at your school couldn't get to the level that you are at now.  

 
TripItUp said:
I believe it’s a false premise that the lack of wealth redistribution is the cause of poverty/inequality or that it would even fix it.  It’s a short term bandaid for a larger problem. 

Off the cuff, here are what I believe to be the root causes of our 13.5% poverty rate.  

1) Cultural - USA has sub cultures that simply don’t have work ethic and discipline 

2) mental illness - well documented the link between mental illness and homelessness - no simple solution 

3) Drug/alcohol use - no simple solution 

4) inadequate education for the lower class 

5) laziness/poor diet/exercise

6) immigrant population - that’s part of the process, almost all of our ancestors came over as impoverished immigrants 

Explain to me how wealth redistribution addresses any of these root causes?
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3 or 4 of those could absolutely easily be addressed with redistribution just not in the form of checks to individuals.  But redistribution to schools, treatment and education programs (mental health, drugs and diet).  Poor diet and education are often direct results of poverty especially in the inner city’s.  

 
wikkidpissah said:
Off the cuff, what's wrong with America is that it has a 13.5% poverty rate and a 4% unemployment rate. That there's such a thing as "working poor" in this nation is just plain a sin. That it is almost 10% of the country is a travesty.
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This isnt really how the data works. It is more like 3%. Obviously still an issue, but not a 10% issue. 

 
Wealth and income inequality does not necessarily cause poverty but all efforts to fix poverty cost money.  And that money has to come from somewhere.

 
Slapdash said:
Many communities, particularly in California, fight zoning that would allow more housing to be built.  People get their nice single-family neighborhoods (even near transit) and then fight to keep it that way vs allowing denser development.  The fight over SB50 is illustrative.  There are not enough housing to go around for the people/jobs don't want to be here.  And when supply doesn't increase to meet a demand increase, prices do.  Which then increases the wealth (inequality) of existing homeowners.
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This does not seem correct to me. A lack of affordable housing causes people to have long commutes. Or live with roommates. It doesn't cause mass homelessness.

If you have a job in LA and make $50k, you are not homeless. You just live really far from where you work. 

 
TripItUp said:
Corporations are the lifeblood of our economy and account for 9% of our country's tax revenue.

But I agree, their influence on politics is something that should be monitored.
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Corporations are nothing without consumers and workers, which are the real life blood of an economy.  I'll never understand the worship of corporations, look where its gotten us

 
jomar said:
Corporations are nothing without consumers and workers, which are the real life blood of an economy.  I'll never understand the worship of corporations, look where its gotten us
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Richest country in the world,.

By far most GDP and it’s not close.

The world superpower.

you can’t argue with the results.  You can argue what we do with the results. 

 
Slapdash said:
I'd characterize this as more of housing policy problem (very much the fault of liberals) than an immigration problem.  Probably a partially a mental health one as well.
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I think it’s more likely a drug problem than housing. Watch Seattle is dying. 

 
IC FBGCav said:
Sure, do you think males and females have the same opportunities and pay?  Old and young?  Single and married?
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As with all large systems in this society, this is a complicated subject.  Fact is that right now women are dramatically outstripping men in terms of educational achievement and even pay in some cases (younger urban women tend to have higher salaries right now).  Having said that there are a large number of reasons why the gender pay gap, though right now small at the young end, tends to grow.  As noted in this Forbes article, a lot has to do with life choices in terms of motherhood.  To fix this would require that we generate as many male primary child caretakers as women.  Not sure that will ever happen as biology tends to dominate that decision making.

Many other reasons are detailed in this article and they all add up.  Men, in general, put up with worse conditions and take bigger chances than women and this tends to net them more money over time.  Also, maybe most strikingly, this is reflected in Equal Occupational Fatality Day, for which the next one for 2019 is in 2030; the gender risk disparity in jobs chosen is that dramatic (and the money tends to go as a reward for working that risk).

Just talking about a blanket gender pay gap is a huge disservice to the forces at work here.  

 
TripItUp said:
that's called capitalism...the market determines your value.  If you don't like your value, do something to improve it.  About 95% of Americans have this opportunity.   Not only do they have the same opportunity that I had, they have safety nets that I have to pay for like Social Security, Medicare and Unemployment among many others.

I do feel bad for the 5% that don't have the same opportunity I did and I am supportive of programs that give them the same opportunities I had.
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How did you derive the 5% number?

I don't pretend to know the actual number, but suspect the number of disabled + very poor + no role model/bad role models exceeds 5% of the population

 
Sand said:
As with all large systems in this society, this is a complicated subject.  Fact is that right now women are dramatically outstripping men in terms of educational achievement and even pay in some cases (younger urban women tend to have higher salaries right now).  Having said that there are a large number of reasons why the gender pay gap, though right now small at the young end, tends to grow.  As noted in this Forbes article, a lot has to do with life choices in terms of motherhood.  To fix this would require that we generate as many male primary child caretakers as women.  Not sure that will ever happen as biology tends to dominate that decision making.

Many other reasons are detailed in this article and they all add up.  Men, in general, put up with worse conditions and take bigger chances than women and this tends to net them more money over time.  Also, maybe most strikingly, this is reflected in Equal Occupational Fatality Day, for which the next one for 2019 is in 2030; the gender risk disparity in jobs chosen is that dramatic (and the money tends to go as a reward for working that risk).

Just talking about a blanket gender pay gap is a huge disservice to the forces at work here.  
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Relevant: Why Do Women Earn Less Than Men? Evidence from Bus and Train Operators (Job Market Paper)

Even in a unionized environment where work tasks are similar, hourly wages are identical, and tenure dictates promotions, we find that female workers earn $0.89 on the male-worker dollar (in weekly earnings). We use confidential administrative data on bus and train operators from the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (MBTA) to show that the weekly earnings gap can be explained by female operators’ taking less overtime and more unpaid time off using Family Medical Leave Act (FMLA) than do male operators. We find that women value time outside of work more than men, and also have greater demand for schedule predictability and controllability. When overtime hours are scheduled three months in advance, men and women work a similar number of hours; but when those hours are offered the day before, men work nearly twice as many. When selecting work schedules, female operators avoid weekend, holiday, and split shifts more than do male operators. Women earn less in weeks with these unfavorable shifts, whereas men earn more by taking leave during the undesirable shift and substituting it with considerable overtime. Moreover, to avoid unfavorable work times, women prioritize schedule convenience over route safety, selecting routes with a higher probability of accidents. These results suggest that policies that increase schedule controllability, like shift-trading and expanded cover lists, can reduce the gender earnings gap and disproportionately increase the wellbeing of female workers.
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I believe similar results have been found when analyzing the earnings of Uber and Lyft drivers. Males earn more per hour even though females are tipped more and the fare algorithms are gender-neutral. It's mainly because men rearrange their schedules to drive during surge times to a greater extent than women do.

This may (or may not) reflect societal sex-discrimination in some way that leaves women with less flexible schedules than men, on average, but it's not simply unequal pay for equal work.

 
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whoknew said:
This does not seem correct to me. A lack of affordable housing causes people to have long commutes. Or live with roommates. It doesn't cause mass homelessness.

If you have a job in LA and make $50k, you are not homeless. You just live really far from where you work. 
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That’s absurd.  Of course it does.  Lack of housing drives up rents.  As people are pushed farther out it drives up rent there as well.

 
timschochet said:
I’m going to speculate that hedge fund guys are not liberal as a general rule (though I’m sure some are.) 

Even so I don’t see the hypocrisy. I try to help out homeless people when I can (as a property manager I’ve done a lot over the years)  I don’t want them living on my street. 
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Got it.

Well, somebody is going to see them.  They are going to live in somebody's neighborhood.  Just like the illegal immigrants pouring over the border. 
You'll back them...you'll support them...but  not one of them will live in your home.  They can stay in the properties that I manage...as long as I get paid....after all, I don't live there and "helping" them, helps me sleep at night.

I will help out...I will give money for food.  I will give them a blanket...as long as I don't have to see them. 

Sounds like everyone else who feels that they will be judged by their intentions....not the results. 
After all, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 
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No, not ok with it.

On things like executive compensation. One example: McDonald CEO earns in an hour what the workers earn in a year, what the typical worker with a good job earns in a year the CEO earns in one day. 

On things like the estate tax. And on the tax rates on corporations and the wealthiest earners. 

Not ok with it. Our government, specifically Republicans but Democrats to some extent,  work for the interest of the wealthiest. That needs to change.

 
Grace Under Pressure said:
No, not ok with it.

On things like executive compensation. One example: McDonald CEO earns in an hour what the workers earn in a year, what the typical worker with a good job earns in a year the CEO earns in one day. 
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The market determines your worth...if you don’t want to work at McDonald’s, do something about it. 

If you want to be a CEO, dedicate your entire life and youth to the CEO track. 

 
TripItUp said:
95% of American have access to the education that I received.  

I made something out of nothing...now I'm being taxed more than 95% of Americans, to pay for programs and institutions that I don't support.  As a matter of fact I'm taxed more than 99.5% of americans.  (California/no children/no tax havens etc. etc.)

The vast majority of Americans don't take advantage of their opportunities and/or they are not hard workers.

I have very little empathy for those that didn't take advantage of their opportunity.(95% of Americans).  I do have empathy for those 5% that never had a shot.

I used to be a Democrat for social reasons, but now I realize that economic opportunity is the fundamental process that makes this country go.  Democrats like AOC and Bernie throwing around the word Socialism scares the bejeezus out of me...it will be the end of our greatness if it comes to fruition.
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They're not the ones throwing around the word "Socialism".  It's the opposition party who's using the overly generic term to scare people like you.  Unfortunately, it's worked.  

 
How do you create equality in society when don't even have equality in the family.

I'm the middle of three children, and make less money then my brother and sister. I'm also the only one who didn't go to college. So who should pony up for my decision to straight to work out of high school? 

 
  1. So...... Since nobody can agree on how much is too much. Which authoritarian gets to decide for us? And does anybody really have the balls to answear this question today while Venezuela is on fire at this very moment?

 
TripItUp said:
The market determines your worth...if you don’t want to work at McDonald’s, do something about it. 

If you want to be a CEO, dedicate your entire life and youth to the CEO track. 
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The “CEO track”? Lol. Typically that’s the privileged track. What about the rest of the post you deleted? Do you agree that the government acts in the interest of the wealthiest? Is that who the government really needs to look out for? 

“Just bootstrap it though” isn’t an answer to the serious inequality gap that just keeps widening.

 
Grace Under Pressure said:
The “CEO track”? Lol. Typically that’s the privileged track. What about the rest of the post you deleted? Do you agree that the government acts in the interest of the wealthiest? Is that who the government really needs to look out for? 

“Just bootstrap it though” isn’t an answer to the serious inequality gap that just keeps widening.
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yes it is, Americans just don't want to hear it. 

Lazy and or lazy and dumb, it's not the government's responsibility to fix lazy or dumb.

 
IC FBGCav said:
Maybe I'm wrong, when was the last time our government did something financially for our people, especially the poor and working class on par with what they do for corporations and the wealthly?
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when was the Govt EVER supposed to do that ?

go out, work hard, seize what you want ........... this is the United States, be whatever you want and choose

don't blame anyone else though with what you get in the end 

 
E Street Brat said:
How do you create equality in society when don't even have equality in the family.

I'm the middle of three children, and make less money then my brother and sister. I'm also the only one who didn't go to college. So who should pony up for my decision to straight to work out of high school? 
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National service is the fulcrum between capitalism and socialism. 2-5years, punitive taxation/ineligibilities for avoidance, a GI Bill after. The selfishness unlearned by service; the skills/markets developed by choosing infrastructure over social programs or military; the grounding in real society; safe exit from under parental wings, what's the downside.? 

 
Stealthycat said:
when was the Govt EVER supposed to do that ?

go out, work hard, seize what you want ........... this is the United States, be whatever you want and choose

don't blame anyone else though with what you get in the end 
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Show me the stats compared to other countries showing US greatness.

 
IC FBGCav said:
That is how it comes off to me, context is impossible with written statements but to me it is how it seems.  Sry if it is misconstrued.
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yeah, I'm not in the hating game.

my experience is that most americans are whiners and complainers and don't really want to work to get ahead.   That's more frustrating than anything else.

I basically fund all of the safety nets for kids that were lazy in high school, and at my high school that was like 75%.  That's a bit frustrating.

 
IC FBGCav said:
You guys do understand that a corporation benefits from all public assistance or program. 
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You do understand that corporations are the lifeblood of our economy...you know, things like electric cars, iPHones...stuff that changes the world.

Painting corporations as big, evil entities is disingenuous at best...and relatively lazy.

 
I agree with @TripItUp , @Stealthycat and others who champion the free market, everyone gets what they deserve based on merit and effort model.

That's why I support a 100% estate tax on all holdings over $500,000. In fact let's make it $100,000. I'm sure they'll join me. After all, who does less to deserve their wealth than those who obtain it simply by outliving their parents?

Also, all colleges and universities who receive federal funding should be required to do away with preferential admissions treatment for the children of alumni and/or donors.  Same logic. Shouldn't give preference to students from elite private schools either; if anything the admissions system should dock applicants for it. Why give students a leg up simply because they have rich parents?

Let me know if that sounds good to you guys.  After that we'll do organized labor and collective bargaining, including right-to-work laws. Can't have the government artificially interfering with the labor market like that.

 
TripItUp said:
You do understand that corporations are the lifeblood of our economy...you know, things like electric cars, iPHones...stuff that changes the world.

Painting corporations as big, evil entities is disingenuous at best...and relatively lazy.
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I have been part of 2 corporations for over 20 years.  Small businesses that actually pay taxes.  I am not smart enough to cheat the system.  What's your point?  I seen the bs healthcare rigging before ACA, I see how companies try to rape people on expense ratios on our 401k....

All corporations are not great and monopolies and oligarchy are the down fall of our republic.

 
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