Zow
Footballguy
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Abortion thread: (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I think there are more than a couple in here that would disagree with that. Probably a couple that would welcome a Handmaid's Tale reality too.
timschochet
Footballguy
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.al.com/politics/2019/05/alabama-bill-would-criminalize-false-rape-accusations.html%3foutputType=amp
I should note that the reporting in this article has been directly challenged by @Ditkaless Wonders in this thread as inaccurate, and he accused me of deliberately attempting to spread false information. I learned of it on MSNBC last week.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Yeah, you’ve summarized the article correctly, but the article itself is crap. Its one redeeming feature is that it links to the text of bill so that anyone who clicks through can see that the article is crap.
(Accusers don’t get in trouble just because the accused is acquitted.)
timschochet
Footballguy
Alabama Governor Kay Ivey’s reverence for the “sanctity of life” did not prevent her from rejecting clemency for the latest prisoner executed today:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2019/05/16/last-word-of-man-executed-in-alabama-was-amen/amp/
This is the 7th person executed this year.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2019/05/16/last-word-of-man-executed-in-alabama-was-amen/amp/
This is the 7th person executed this year.
whoknew
Footballguy
whoknew
Footballguy
I don't understand the pro-life view that its too restrictive. If you believe abortion is murder, what should you want the law to be?
Zow
Footballguy
Yeah I read the actual bill. DW is correct and that article, like most news articles reporting on sex crimes, is inaccurate (albeit I don't think deliberately).
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Zow
Footballguy
Yep. This is the most important distinction as the bill itself says that a person can be convicted and may be responsible for legal fees if the allegations are proven to be false (i.e. exoneration). In the world of criminal law, there's a huge difference between acquittal and exoneration. For example, OJ was acquitted. The Duke lacrosse kids were exonerated.
Zow
Footballguy
Shula-holic
Footballguy
For the record, the life that was extinguished by the state tonight was a man named Michael Samra. He and another man killed 4 people that night, a man and woman who were engaged, and her two daughters. The mother and children were from a town near where I grew up. Samra and the son of the male victim entered the home, the son shot his father and Samra shot the mother in the face in front of her young daughters. According to the records of that case, the woman sustained a wound to the face but survived and fled upstairs from the attackers with her small children. She tried hiding out with one daughter, the 6 year old, in the bathroom while the other daughter hid under a bed. After kicking open the door, the other gunman then shot the mother again, killing her. The two attackers were out of ammunition at this point. They didn't choose to leave. They then brandished two knives and yanked the 6 year old from behind the shower curtain. The other attacker slit the throat of the 6 year old. The 7 year old was still hiding under the bed. They then located her and while she tried to fight them off, the other attacker held the 7 year old down so that Michael Samra could slit her throat.
I'm not a fan of the abortion bill here in Alabama, but count me as one who is happy that Michael Samra is gone. If you believe in hell, be happy he is there. If not, then hope he suffered half as much as the 6 and 7 year old girls did who had to watch their mother murdered, then be killed in a horrific way as they were overpowered by these cowards. As a father of two young girls, I can't even imagine what they went through and the pain that their father must feel for knowing what his daughters had to endure. So I won't lose any sleep tonight over this "life". In fact, if I smoked or drank I might go enjoy a light or a round to celebrate. Good riddance.
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2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
Should pass a law if you get a woman pregnant you have to marry her and are financially responsible for her and all of her children's well being for the rest of their lives. If you get caught cheating or unemployed for more than 6 months, you are accused of abuse or not giving them proper food, shelter, and clothing, you get 99 years in prison.
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Perhaps had you originally written "according to the article I read editorializing on the law" rather than stating unequivocally "according to the law" I would not have commented at all. As it was I did not accuse you of deliberately attempting to spread false information, though that is in fact what you actually did. Rather I raised the possibility that you were. I left unsaid, but open, other possibilities, probably less flattering and so unstated.
See, I believe you are literate enough to understand the implications of your language and I hold you to understanding what you write, particularly when it is forwarding your very clear political agenda. I don't believe in accidents that forward ones own interests, I believe in agenda when that occurs.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Aren't you the guy who keeps talking about how logical consistency is overrated and should be abandoned as a goal?
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Oh absolutely. I brought this up because apparently in the request for clemency the guy’s lawyers brought up the governor’s comments about sanctity of life. So I thought it was interesting.
But yeah if somebody wants to be pro-life and pro- capital punishment I’ve got no problem with it.
Franknbeans
Footballguy
"The new Alabama abortion ban has nothing to do with mercy or the preservation and sanctity of life. The politicians in this state who voted for this law do not care about children once they have been expelled from our wombs. They do not care whether a child is wanted, fed, loved and provided for. They do not care about the things they thrust on the shoulders of women and children, and whether or not they are left destitute in the fallout.
Our politicians demonstrate no desire to understand the destructive nature of silence in victims of rape and incest, and instead base law on their idealistic fantasies of how they want women in crisis pregnancies to feel and react. This willful ignorance is a violence in and of itself. It makes my skin crawl and my stomach turn that yet another trespasser has inserted themselves into some part of me, without even touching me, without being forced to confront my voice before speaking over it. This is not compassion, this is cowardice. They dishonor us all.
I am not ashamed to say that if I had been given the option of a so-called “later-term” abortion, I would have taken it. I know the value of being given a choice, because I know what it is like to have those choices ripped out from underneath you with only the freefall below. It should have been my decision, and certainly not that of some faceless interloper who will never experience my reality, or Zoe’s."
Our politicians demonstrate no desire to understand the destructive nature of silence in victims of rape and incest, and instead base law on their idealistic fantasies of how they want women in crisis pregnancies to feel and react. This willful ignorance is a violence in and of itself. It makes my skin crawl and my stomach turn that yet another trespasser has inserted themselves into some part of me, without even touching me, without being forced to confront my voice before speaking over it. This is not compassion, this is cowardice. They dishonor us all.
I am not ashamed to say that if I had been given the option of a so-called “later-term” abortion, I would have taken it. I know the value of being given a choice, because I know what it is like to have those choices ripped out from underneath you with only the freefall below. It should have been my decision, and certainly not that of some faceless interloper who will never experience my reality, or Zoe’s."
matttyl
Footballguy
I get that, I've just never understood it. Life needs parts from both the mother (female) and the father (male). Parts from either alone, don't, and scientifically can't create life.
When you say "move back the starting point a few steps", in my mind one of those "steps" is in fact the moment that life begins. Anything after that point, and you're ending that life. Anything before that point, and that life had never even begun so couldn't be ended. And for the record, as my initial post read, I'm not totally against it - I do believe that the woman should have that choice. But that choice is what it is - it's ending a life. Let's call it what it is.
Literally last night, a very good friend of mine (well, his wife) posted on social media, due to all of this happening, that they ended a pregnancy last year - which very few knew about. I didn't. And I get it, I really do. They have 3 kids already, two of them pretty much special needs (very much on the spectrum), with one income for the household. It wasn't planned. He's since had the snip done. I'm not sure what I'd have done in the same situation. My own child went through a very, very serious medical situation last year - and for all we know the cause of it was the genetic combination of his mother and father. He's completely fine now (thanks to modern medical technology), but it did finalize my own decision about family planning going forward - which by the way I for some reason needed my wife's "permission" to do, which was kinda odd to me.
timschochet
Footballguy
Glad your son is ok, matttyl.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
In fact, a sperm outside its host body, with no medical procedures whatsoever, simply a proper environment to be released into, can live for like a week. Can a zygote?
matttyl
Footballguy
Oh, a sperm is alive, no doubt. But it's not a live human, it's a live sperm. In my mind, as stated above, the "human life" takes parts from both.
I mean if you want to get more scientific about it, we are muticellular organisms, and the earliest developmental stage of any multicellular organism is as a zygote (not as a sperm, or as an egg). That zygote has a genome, and that genome is the combination of the male and female - and contains all that is needed DNAwise to form a new individual, or a life. That wasn't the case before fertilization.
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I always understood the timeframe to be closer to 48hours. I guess I need to update my information base. Time to do a bit of googling.
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Mayo clinic says at least five days for sperm viability. Clearly Henry knew more about this than I, again. Actually Henry being better informed than I is something I more or less presume. Smart cat, that Henry. Well informed.
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Zow
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
So we can differentiate between “human”/“living” (because it’s human sperm and living) and a “human life”. Good. Try to understand that many people don’t consider a “human life” to exist until there’s a functioning cerebral cortex. Or the organism can exist outside the gestating mother. And those are legitimate viewpoints. And while I don’t expect to force either or both on you, neither do I expect you to force your decision on me.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I myself do not buy into artificial delineations along a continuum. Incredibly obvious guideposts along the way, sure, but minute delineations that are not even capable of clear definition, not so much. That said I lack the certainty to want to impose my views on others. In fact, even when I have certainty I do not seek to exercise dominion over others. I respect the autonomy and free will of others sufficiently that I allow that they should be allowed to make their own mistakes absent those decisions directly and significantly impacting me or mine. The decisions here are not, in my view, appropriate for legislation. They should be private except to those brought in to the decision by the mother.
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I tend to believe that these are sophistries, rationalizations grasped to assuage conflict and pain over crushingly difficult decisions. that said, again, I am not so clear or certain in my position that I can judge others for these beliefs or that I would try to legislate my beliefs as correct imposing on the free will and choices of others whose life experience informs them that a choice needs be made.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
People are free to believe whatever they want, but it's impossible not to force your own views about "human life" on other people. Peter Singer, for example, has argued that personhood doesn't fully commence until the point of self-awareness, which is well over a year after birth. It doesn't bother me at all to entertain that argument as an intellectual exercise, but I'm also totally comfortable forcing my own views on him by outlawing infanticide. I imagine that you are as well.
Actually, this sort of phenomenon doesn't just apply to human beings. There are people out there who don't believe that animals have any rights that merit respecting. If somebody wants to argue that dog-fighting, for example, is good and just, I'll be happy to hear them out. They're free to hold that belief and advocate for it. But I'm going still going to force my own views on them in the form of animal cruelty legislation.
toshiba
Footballguy
I'll take it one step further. If that many people really feel abortion is murdering babies why aren't their more people defending the lives of all these babies with more extreme measures?
Zow
Footballguy
I'd settle for just some legislation requiring the allocation of significant funds to help care for the pre-birth medical costs and post-birth reasonable and necessary costs of survival. That is, if we're going to force the pregnancy to go full time and protect the life of the unborn baby. Seems hypocritical to do anything but this.
H Jass
Footballguy
I think what is happening down at the border with separating children and parents with some never seeing each other again is a moral abomination...as do you I’m sure. Why aren’t we going down there and performing more “extreme measures”?
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
When folks feel empowered or justified in moving to extreme measures I expect tragedy, as I expect do you.
H Jass
Footballguy
Absolutely. I was answering the silly canard of “if pro-life folks really feel it’s a life, why are they all so complacent and not rushing clinics?” Dumb.
toshiba
Footballguy
Politician Spock
Footballguy
I used to agree with the bolded, but don't anymore. The vast majority of beliefs are fine (even if they are greatly disputed), but some beliefs are so bad that they need to be labeled unacceptable beliefs. For example, hating gays.
And if a person can't show mercy in their beliefs to the victim of rape, then I think they've crossed the line to their beliefs needing to be labeled unacceptable. Even when I was a born again evangelical, I believed rape victims should have the right to abort.
H Jass
Footballguy
So inconvenient travel is where you draw your moral line.Could it be something else perhaps? Living in a civil society...yadda yadda..,violence begetting more violence...yadda yadda.
toshiba
Footballguy
I don't know, I am just surprised if people really feel this many babies are being murdered that there are more people taking extreme measures. I didn't say it would be a good thing, I am just surprised.
Could it be something else perhaps? Living in a civil society...yadda yadda..,violence begetting more violence...yadda yadda.
timschochet
Footballguy
I think society does need to label some beliefs as unacceptable, but that is not the same as making them illegal. Using your example, you should be free to hate gay people so long as you don’t hurt anybody. But at the same time it’s perfectly appropriate for our public schools to teach our children that such views are wrong.
But- issues regarding abortion do not fall into that category. All sides believe what they do for moral reasons but there are clear divides and it would be wrong for society to ever declare that one answer or the other is correct.
timschochet
Footballguy
And from a purely logical point of view, as @whoknew has pointed out, this makes no sense. If you believe that an abortion is the killing of an innocent child, how then does distinguishing the circumstances of the child’s birth “show mercy”? Why shouldn’t a baby born of rape have just as much right to live as any other baby?
matttyl
Footballguy
Just to clarify, though I think you understood my position - human sperm =/= human (in my mind). It's a part needed to make a human, but by itself not a human - like an arm or leg, even though it may be "living tissue".
But see, you're going the other way with your examples above. You're going beyond the moment of conception/fertilization to the point where it has a "functioning cerebral cortex" (2nd trimester) or can exist outside of the mother (generally 3rd trimester). I can much more understand, and even agree, with that viewpoint that I can with people going the other direction from conception/fertilization as @FreeBaGeL did above saying "move back the starting point of life a few steps" (to the separated egg and sperm). I can't wrap my head around that one, as there is no "human life" at that point to me.
Also, and I think you know this a well, I'm not trying to force my decision on you or anyone. You likely know that I'm pretty libertarian at heart - you do you and I'll do me philosophy. I'm just stating what (I think) my thoughts on the subject are.
Sand
Footballguy
You make the strangest arguments sometimes. Of all people on this rock this guy was right at the top of the list for getting kicked off.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
I wasn’t making any kind of argument. I was noting it because the guy used it in request for clemency.
Personally I don’t know if I am for the death penalty. I’ve read all the arguments and I go back and forth. But based on what @Shula-holic wrote last night this particular subject seems like a good argument for.
matttyl
Footballguy
While totally unacceptable (we agree completely there), a person is still free to do it. They are free to believe it, they just aren't free to act upon those beliefs. Also, if they let those beliefs be known publicly, they should (and frankly need to) face the repercussions of those beliefs.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Yeah, for the record, I strongly disagree with this. Not looking to hijack the thread or anything, just noting that this is the kind of underlying disagreement that naturally tends to result in very divergent policy preferences.
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