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timschochet

Abortion thread:

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8 hours ago, quick-hands said:

Why do you deny science?  And hate life.

Asking again...what is the science? I can’t deny it if I don’t know what it is :shrug: 

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11 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Roe created a situation where one side won and the other side lost.  That's part of the problem. 

If Roe is overturned, some states will ban abortion outright, some states will restrict it, and some states will legalize it in nearly all cases.  That will take a huge amount of vitriol out of the picture, because both sides will get some wins.

You forgot to talk about the losses. Not just the wins. And, as usual, the losers in this scenario will be poor women.

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3 minutes ago, whoknew said:

You forgot to talk about the losses. Not just the wins. And, as usual, the losers in this scenario will be poor women.

I normally agree with most of Ivan’s takes but I think he’s way off here. Overturning Roe wouldn’t remove the vitriol; it would enhance it because the nation would be consumed by this issue. 

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Just now, timschochet said:

I normally agree with most of Ivan’s takes but I think he’s way off here. Overturning Roe wouldn’t remove the vitriol; it would enhance it because the nation would be consumed by this issue. 

Maybe.  But at least the fights would be at the state level.  I see that as preferable to one side imposing its views nationally when public opinion is strongly divided and varies by state.

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6 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Maybe.  But at least the fights would be at the state level.  I see that as preferable to one side imposing its views nationally when public opinion is strongly divided and varies by state.

Following this course, many things will be attempted to be overturned and many civil rights would be lost in this battle... as belief in civil rights varies by state. The health of our nation is that we treat people throughout equally and not giving "states rights" carte blanche to pick and choose.

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7 minutes ago, Mario Kart said:

Following this course, many things will be attempted to be overturned and many civil rights would be lost in this battle... as belief in civil rights varies by state. The health of our nation is that we treat people throughout equally and not giving "states rights" carte blanche to pick and choose.

If you were given a choice between states deciding the issue for themselves vs. a nationwide abortion ban, which would you rather have?

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4 hours ago, BigSteelThrill said:

They didn't even try to give it any rights, they just tried to stop something they personally have a problem with. 

There is no doubt that what they drew up was not terribly well thought out.  It is designed to be a stake in the ground to force SCOTUS to take it up, without much regard to practicalities.  

The biggest issue with this law is that, it upheld, would not be able politically to be modified here.  I don't like the lack of exceptions, nor some of the poor construction of the bill.

Your point on personhood is valid and I do see 14th amendment issues being brought up down the road.  

 

12 hours ago, Sammy3469 said:

So a one day old embryo can survive outside the womb?

This kind of thinking sure makes the death panel debate easier.

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13 minutes ago, Sand said:

 

This kind of thinking sure makes the death panel debate easier.

How so?  

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Alabama is showing progressive movements - this will catch fire and spread.

the killing of unborn babies is ending I hope - and 'Bama is the one to lead. People are sickened by killing unborn babies for convenience. They're now doing something about it. Thank God

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16 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

Alabama is showing progressive movements - this will catch fire and spread.

the killing of unborn babies is ending I hope - and 'Bama is the one to lead. People are sickened by killing unborn babies for convenience. They're now doing something about it. Thank God

Nowhere in the country does support for banning abortion reach 25%.  

https://twitter.com/DataProgress/status/1128481533273178112

How about we exercise those small government/personal freedom values we all love so much and we can all each mind our own business. Why does the entire populace have to bend to the beliefs of a minority? 

 

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6 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:
12 minutes ago, Jackstraw said:

Nowhere in the country does support for banning abortion reach 25%.  

Pew would like a word with you.

To be fair that does not address the concept of banning.

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3 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

Don't know what to tell you. This is Gallup should abortion be illegal in all circumstances. No one reaches 25%. 

Pew says all/most. Leaves people quite a bit of wiggle. 

 

BUT STILL. Not even close to the type of overwhleming change in values of the country that would merit overturning precedent. If they overturn Roe it would simply be because the five thought thier opinions were better than the previous justices. That has NEVER been considered legitimate to overturn precedent. 

 

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I doubt it’s 75% but the majority does favor keeping abortion legal. And Ivan is correct as well, it varies by state. 

But frankly none of this matters to me. IMO this is an individual rights issue and thus not subject to a democratic vote. 

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13 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:
18 minutes ago, Jackstraw said:

Nowhere in the country does support for banning abortion reach 25%.  

Pew would like a word with you.

Different questions asked of those polled.

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15 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I went back and looked at this list again, purely for political reasons. I wanted to see what the numbers were for 3 states in particular: 

Michigan 51% keep it legal

Pennsylvania 53% keep it legal 

Wisconsin 54% keep it legal 

Given the fact that suburban women will be decisive in each of these 3 states, the Republican Party in Alabama have have just handed next years election to the Democrats, gift wrapped. 

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13 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I doubt it’s 75% but the majority does favor keeping abortion legal. And Ivan is correct as well, it varies by state. 

But frankly none of this matters to me. IMO this is an individual rights issue and thus not subject to a democratic vote. 

What is not an individual right, in your opinion?  What should the government decide in relation to someone's body?

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Just now, Ramblin Wreck said:

What is not an individual right, in your opinion?  What should the government decide in relation to someone's body?

I don’t think it should be legal to take heroin. 

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Just now, timschochet said:

I don’t think it should be legal to take heroin. 

I do

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3 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

What is not an individual right, in your opinion?  What should the government decide in relation to someone's body?

Your question is too broad. If you ask me a specific “should this be legal”? I can answer you better. As a general rule society should have as many individual rights as possible, but there are exceptions. 

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1 minute ago, Slapdash said:

I do

Well you’re probably more idealistically consistent than I am. I gave up on trying to be consistent a long time ago. It tied me into knots; it doesn’t work for me. These days I am cheerfully inconsistent. 

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Your question is too broad. If you ask me a specific “should this be legal”? I can answer you better. As a general rule society should have as many individual rights as possible, but there are exceptions. 

Was meant to be broad.  Either we believe the government should control what we do to our bodies or we don't. 

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1 minute ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Was meant to be broad.  Either we believe the government should control what we do to our bodies or we don't. 

Nope. Our entire history rejects this type of thinking. Our laws are not ideologically consistent with each other and never have been. 

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Nope. Our entire history rejects this type of thinking. Our laws are not ideologically consistent with each other and never have been. 

Correct.  The entire system on both sides are very hypocritical

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9 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Nope. Our entire history rejects this type of thinking. Our laws are not ideologically consistent with each other and never have been. 

'that's the way its always been' is not a convincing argument to me

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3 minutes ago, jomar said:

'that's the way its always been' is not a convincing argument to me

I’m not Bruce Hornsby. I didn’t make that argument. 

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3 hours ago, shader said:
10 hours ago, tommyGunZ said:

Sperm isn’t potential human life?

 Your fishing trip won’t work here my friend. 

Assuming we’re talking about human sperm, I’d say that sperm is actual (not merely potential) human life.

But it’s not a potential person the way an egg is. The cartoon version of reproduction is that an egg and a sperm are coequal cells in the process, but I don’t think that reflects reality.

The egg is the cell that survives fertilization. The comparatively tiny sperm is disassembled and used for its parts.

Saying that a sperm is a potential baby because the egg needs it in order to start dividing is a bit like saying that a breastful of milk is a potential toddler because the infant needs it for energy.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I don’t think it should be legal to take heroin. 

Why not?  Imposition on societal resources?  Danger to others? Collateral crime associated with the expense of acquiring?  Something else?

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders

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9 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Why not?  Imposition on societal resources?  Danger to others? Collateral crime associated with the expense of acquiring?  Something else?

All of the above. But mostly it’s bad for society. 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

All of the above. But mostly it’s bad for society. 

 

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders
Again, I seem to want to go on a tangent. I apologize.

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41 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

Assuming we’re talking about human sperm, I’d say that sperm is actual (not merely potential) human life.

But it’s not a potential person the way an egg is. The cartoon version of reproduction is that an egg and a sperm are coequal cells in the process, but I don’t think that reflects reality.

The egg is the cell that survives fertilization. The comparatively tiny sperm is disassembled and used for its parts.

Saying that a sperm is a potential baby because the egg needs it in order to start dividing is a bit like saying that a breastful of milk is a potential toddler because the infant needs it for energy.

I like your analogy.  The first time someone on the internet threw the "what about sperm" question at me 20 years ago, it stumped me for about 5 minutes.  Now it's laughable that people still use it.

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

I went back and looked at this list again, purely for political reasons. I wanted to see what the numbers were for 3 states in particular: 

Michigan 51% keep it legal

Pennsylvania 53% keep it legal 

Wisconsin 54% keep it legal 

Given the fact that suburban women will be decisive in each of these 3 states, the Republican Party in Alabama have have just handed next years election to the Democrats, gift wrapped. 

You are probably right.  I've seen some Republicans that are not happy with this issue coming out as they feel it will seriously harm or destroy their chances for 2020.  

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3 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

If you were given a choice between states deciding the issue for themselves vs. a nationwide abortion ban, which would you rather have?

why stop at the state level?  Maybe it should be decided by counties within the state but why stop there?  Let each town and municipality make that decision or let's break it down further and have it voted on by street.  Heck let's keep going and have it decided by each home on the street or go all the way and let's let each individual make their own decision.

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2 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

For all the media sensationalism about the makeup of the Alabama Senate they sure don't seem to mention that, according to this poll, the will of the people in Alabama was done.

Speaking of media sensation, the contrast between the coverage of the AL law and the NY law sure does spotlight the leanings of the press.  Way, way to one side.

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1 minute ago, Sand said:

For all the media sensationalism about the makeup of the Alabama Senate they sure don't seem to mention that, according to this poll, the will of the people in Alabama was done.

Speaking of media sensation, the contrast between the coverage of the AL law and the NY law sure does spotlight the leanings of the press.  Way, way to one side.

I am pretty sure if you took a poll in Alabama in 1950 on whether or not blacks should be able to use the same bathrooms as whites it be overwhelmingly no.   

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4 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

If you were given a choice between states deciding the issue for themselves vs. a nationwide abortion ban, which would you rather have?

The problem I have with it being a state issue is that disproportionally affects the poor.  Assuming the state actually allows you to travel to another state to get an abortion (looking at you, Georgia) the rich are not as affected. The rich will always have access to abortion; it just depends on how far they need to travel to get one.

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

I am pretty sure if you took a poll in Alabama in 1950 on whether or not blacks should be able to use the same bathrooms as whites it be overwhelmingly no.   

Perfect example, because everyone here in Alabama was born in 1932 or earlier, so the correlation is going to be dead on.  And because the analogy between the freedom to kill children and the freedom to quash civil rights are exactly on the same moral plane.

You got me.  1 point Godsbrother.

 

50 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

why stop at the state level? 

Those pesky founding documents sure are a nuisance, aren't they?

Edited by Sand

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33 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

I am pretty sure if you took a poll in Alabama in 1950 on whether or not blacks should be able to use the same bathrooms as whites it be overwhelmingly no.   

Part of what makes this issue challenging is that people on each side tend to see people on the other side as the segregationists in this analogy.

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3 hours ago, Jackstraw said:

Nowhere in the country does support for banning abortion reach 25%.  

https://twitter.com/DataProgress/status/1128481533273178112

How about we exercise those small government/personal freedom values we all love so much and we can all each mind our own business. Why does the entire populace have to bend to the beliefs of a minority? 

 

an exceptionally few loves the killing unborn babies - no society that values human life should accept it

I sometimes love faith in humans, in people ............. these young people seeing it for what it is, they're going to be the spark I hope that changes infanticide 

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Its amazing to me how the state that ranks 50th in educating its children is so worried about the unborn children.  Maybe it should focus the states resources on improving the lives of the children that are living currently and less on controlling women and their reproductive rights.

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10 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

an exceptionally few loves the killing unborn babies - no society that values human life should accept it

I sometimes love faith in humans, in people ............. these young people seeing it for what it is, they're going to be the spark I hope that changes infanticide 

Agree, in fact I'd put it at about zero.

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3 hours ago, timschochet said:

I don’t think it should be legal to take heroin. 

Why?

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32 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

Agree, in fact I'd put it at about zero.

not zero

its a money making machine - the Sanger's of the world see it as a great tool in stopping blacks from reproducing (did you know more black babies in NYC are aborted every year than are born ?) 

 

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45 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

an exceptionally few loves the killing unborn babies - no society that values human life should accept it

I sometimes love faith in humans, in people ............. these young people seeing it for what it is, they're going to be the spark I hope that changes infanticide 

Please stop with the killing babies Strawman.

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