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Abortion thread: (1 Viewer)

gianmarco said:
So dumb

Republicans absolutely justified in asking to censure him after those comments.  I would hope Democrats would agree.  No place for that.
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That guy has been a nutcase for decades.  Kinda like Sheila Jackson Lee - completely off their rocker, but gets reelected time and time again based on pure charisma.

 
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Juxtatarot said:
Missouri too?
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They admit it was purposely passed with vulgar omissions like having an abortion as a result of being raped still being legal in hopes of overturning Roe.  I have a friend in Chicago that was attacked, raped and impregnated while out jogging.  This was about 20 years ago. She had an abortion. These laws make me want to be "unruly". 

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
This is a good essay.

http://fakenous.net/?p=392
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I think it has some good discussion in it.  I think it’s a little off at times. 

In fact, if you think the issue is easy, then I would say you’re irrational.
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I guess that depends on what you think the “issue” is.  If it’s morality, sure, it’s complex.  If it’s legality, I would say it’s remarkably simple.  Of course, if we’re talking morality, it would probably be best for the writer to stop calling people who are pro-choice “pro-abortion” as used in the first paragraph.  

 
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If you’re the only person walking by a pool, and someone is in it screaming for help and drowning, is it morally acceptable to walk away without helping? Might depend on the circumstances.  Can you swim? Well enough to save this person? How far away is the person? Is there a life ring? A rope? Anything you can do to help other than jump in?  Do you have a cell phone? The morality might be complicated but probably falls on the side of “immoral” for walking away.

Legality? There’s no real question.  You generally have no legal duty to help that person.

Morality and the what the law should be are entirely different things. 

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
This is a good essay.

http://fakenous.net/?p=392
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Thomson says it would be okay to expel the fetus from your body, even if it has a right to life, because its right to life does not imply that you have a duty to support its life using your own body; you own your body, and you don’t have to let anyone use it, even if they need it to survive. (See the famous violinist hypothetical.)

This is a very right-wing libertarian argument, appealing to self-ownership and a purely negative conception of rights (yay). I notice, however, that many left-wing people seem to find this argument convincing, yet they reject the same sort of libertarian, “negative rights only” logic in other areas (e.g., when it comes to whether I have to use my labor or resources to support the poor).
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I've noticed this exact same thing and thought about commenting on it before, but I thought it was too meta for people to get.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I've noticed this exact same thing and thought about commenting on it before, but I thought it was too meta for people to get.
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It’s actually something of an oversimplification of liberal viewpoints. Liberals generally have a hierarchy of rights, and body ownership and determination (legalize marijuana, pro-choice, right to die, etc) is pretty consistently at the top.  They take a dimmer view of the idea of solely individual rights to the economic benefits of society (hence raising taxes to help the poor and underprivileged, etc).  

 
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Henry Ford said:
If you’re the only person walking by a pool, and someone is in it screaming for help and drowning, is it morally acceptable to walk away without helping? Might depend on the circumstances.  Can you swim? Well enough to save this person? How far away is the person? Is there a life ring? A rope? Anything you can do to help other than jump in?  Do you have a cell phone? The morality might be complicated but probably falls on the side of “immoral” for walking away.

Legality? There’s no real question.  You generally have no legal duty to help that person.

Morality and the what the law should be are entirely different things. 
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Well, the first thing I'd do is make sure there isn't a dog that needs saving. 

 
It seems there is some bad information going around, the law does not ban all abortions, but those after a heartbeat is present.   Also, the law does not expressly criminalize the women who gets the abortion or travels across state lines, but the abortion provider.   

 
jon_mx said:
It seems there is some bad information going around, the law does not ban all abortions, but those after a heartbeat is present.   Also, the law does not expressly criminalize the women who gets the abortion or travels across state lines, but the abortion provider.   
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Electrical impulses from cardiac cells aren’t the same thing as a heartbeat. 

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Yes it is
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No it isnt.

Its not recognized as such by our government. Or legal definition. Its not recognized as such by human history.

Its not recognized as such by the freaking language or dictionary...

child /CHīld/
noun: child; plural noun: children
    a young human being below the age of puberty or below the legal age of majority.
    a son or daughter of any age.
    an immature or irresponsible person.

You are pushing an alternate reality that assuages your sensibilities.

 
BigSteelThrill said:
No it isnt.

Its not recognized as such by our government. Or legal definition. Its not recognized as such by human history.

Its not recognized as such by the freaking language or dictionary...

child /CHīld/
noun: child; plural noun: children
    a young human being below the age of puberty or below the legal age of majority.
    a son or daughter of any age.
    an immature or irresponsible person.

You are pushing an alternate reality that assuages your sensibilities.
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So it's okay to kill whatever the living thing is?

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
So it's okay to kill whatever the living thing is?
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Its unfortunately terrible.

It also perfectly legal and understandable. It isn't for you or me to decide -- unless it be our body and medical procedure. Even the greeks had it within their ancient medical "how to" manuals. *And Jesus himself never took issue with it.

 
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BigSteelThrill said:
Not when it comes to the society being harmed by the actions/in-actions.

Like being put in prison or not allowing heroin use. The damage you can cause on the other citizenry-populace is considered too great.
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Every single pro-lifer would argue that this applies even more strongly to abortion.

 
Seriously, if you understand why it might be okay to require vaccinations even though it violates a person's bodily autonomy, then you ought to be able to understand why it might be okay to outlaw abortion even though it violates a person's bodily autonomy.  The exact same argument applies for setting bodily autonomy aside in both cases.  (Admittedly, there is a difference in degree, but not in kind).

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Every single pro-lifer would argue that this applies even more strongly to abortion.
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No, they don't. They argue about its sanctity, that life is precious. Holy.

Now they could lie, but we all  know the facts about the % of these children and mothers being a social burden (and worse) and poor. And we all know of the overpopulation and what it is doing to not only our society but to the entirety of this planet.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Seriously, if you understand why it might be okay to require vaccinations even though it violates a person's bodily autonomy, then you ought to be able to understand why it might be okay to outlaw abortion even though it violates a person's bodily autonomy.  The exact same argument applies for setting bodily autonomy aside in both cases.  (Admittedly, there is a difference in degree, but not in kind).
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Huge difference.  Same as imprisoning someone against their will, for vaccination.  Abortion is nowhere near those -- and could be a net benefit. :yes:

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Trust me.  I'm pretty familiar with the pro-life position.
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Well we've heard it here for at least 12 years and that isn't the argument made.

Like the couple times they tried to say "we are fighting to legalize personhood"... to try and look better and make an argument.  Its was an attempt at obfuscation nothing more.  They would rather get after the mother /doctor than take the hard fight of getting the unborn real protections and citizenship as they know their arguments fall apart in such a setting. So they would rather appease their own sensibilities than anything about the unborn or the child.

 
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IvanKaramazov said:
Seriously, if you understand why it might be okay to require vaccinations even though it violates a person's bodily autonomy, then you ought to be able to understand why it might be okay to outlaw abortion even though it violates a person's bodily autonomy.  The exact same argument applies for setting bodily autonomy aside in both cases.  (Admittedly, there is a difference in degree, but not in kind).
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I disagree. I find the issues aren’t similar at all.

 
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