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timschochet

Terrible optics for Boston Red Sox visit to White House: every white player is going; every black and Hispanic player (except for Cuban JD Martinez) is staying home.

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13 hours ago, supermike80 said:

Seems this is a cause for celebration.

And now, because a white ball player, who has dreamt about meeting the President his whole life and seeing the white house, will be called nothing but a racist because he wants to go.

This is what the left is doing.  It's utterly horrible--I want no part of this progressive thinking by the democratic party.   I'm totally at a loss about how to even go forward in this political mess we have now..Its two ugly sides.

I didn't see any posts saying that. I did, however, see a post criticizing non-white players for not wanting to go.  So, maybe you should be attacking the side that is actually doing the utterly horrible thing, instead of making up a reason to attack the side you don't agree with.

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1 hour ago, apalmer said:

I didn't see any posts saying that. I did, however, see a post criticizing non-white players for not wanting to go.  So, maybe you should be attacking the side that is actually doing the utterly horrible thing, instead of making up a reason to attack the side you don't agree with.

What’s the whole point of the thread?   What are the bad optics?

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1 hour ago, apalmer said:

I didn't see any posts saying that. I did, however, see a post criticizing non-white players for not wanting to go.  So, maybe you should be attacking the side that is actually doing the utterly horrible thing, instead of making up a reason to attack the side you don't agree with.

My opinion on the left is not limited to the posts on this board.

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4 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

What’s the whole point of the thread?   What are the bad optics?

The divisiveness of the President? That's a far cry from "the left claiming that all the players who go are racists."

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10 hours ago, Insomniac said:

When the Bruins won the Stanley Cup some years back, their goaltender Tim Thomas  refused to go to the White House because of his political dislike of Obama.  Somehow I don't think that you, or any of the other far right wingers on this site,  would have complained about his political protest. Of course I could be wrong.

I'm not complaining about their decision.  I'm complaining about those that will judge them for their decision, on both sides.    

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Just now, supermike80 said:

My opinion on the left is not limited to the posts on this board.

Maybe I haven't looked deep enough, but I haven't heard or read claims that the white players must be racists anywhere else either. Link?

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5 minutes ago, apalmer said:

Maybe I haven't looked deep enough, but I haven't heard or read claims that the white players must be racists anywhere else either. Link?

Wow..You haven't looked deep enough----read this thread.   One poster makes it very clear that those that attend either are bigots or are willing to look the other way when it comes to bigotry by attending the event.  Rather than saying hey, these guys earned a trip to the white house..Nope..They are bigots OR are supporting bigotry by going.

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The University of Virginia basketball team won’t have to face this dilemma, because as a team they have declined to accept the White House’s Invitation: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/04/27/sports/virginia-basketball-trump-white-house.amp.html

I’m sure the players on Virginia would love the opportunity to visit the White House, but they’ve chosen not to tolerate President Trump’s racism 

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4 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Wow..You haven't looked deep enough----read this thread.   One poster makes it very clear that those that attend either are bigots or are willing to look the other way when it comes to bigotry by attending the event.  Rather than saying hey, these guys earned a trip to the white house..Nope..They are bigots OR are supporting bigotry by going.

I wrote that they are willing to look the other way. I never wrote that they are bigots themselves. Who has done so? 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

The University of Virginia basketball team won’t have to face this dilemma, because as a team they have declined to accept the White House’s Invitation: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/04/27/sports/virginia-basketball-trump-white-house.amp.html

I’m sure the players on Virginia would love the opportunity to visit the White House, but they’ve chosen not to tolerate President Trump’s racism 

See Apalmer?   I told you.   You still need links?

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

I wrote that they are willing to look the other way. I never wrote that they are bigots themselves. Who has done so? 

Oh quit it.  You're not nearly as smart as you like to think you are.  If they go, they are tolerating racism.  You said it so many times it's old.  

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Just now, supermike80 said:

Oh quit it.  You're not nearly as smart as you like to think you are.  If they go, they are tolerating racism.  You said it so many times it's old.  

But that doesn’t make them bigots themselves. Are you really not able to see the difference? 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

But that doesn’t make them bigots themselves. Are you really not able to see the difference? 

Right...They just tolerate bigotry...We can agree that's what you said.   Split hairs all you want. I would think being told you tolerate bigotry makes you a bad person......

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10 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Wow..You haven't looked deep enough----read this thread.   One poster makes it very clear that those that attend either are bigots or are willing to look the other way when it comes to bigotry by attending the event.  Rather than saying hey, these guys earned a trip to the white house..Nope..They are bigots OR are supporting bigots  by going.

With regard to the bolded, you’re making a false accusation. 

Looking fhe other way when it comes to bigotry is not the same as being a bigot. It’s not even fhe same as supporting bigotry. 

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Just now, supermike80 said:

Right...They just tolerate bigotry...We can agree that's what you said.   Split hairs all you want. I would think being told you tolerate bigotry makes you a bad person......

It doesn’t. There are many reasons one might do so. You don’t think it’s that big a deal, you don’t really believe Trump is serious, you haven’t paid much attention to it...all of this is likely. And even if you’ve got all the information and you still choose to tolerate bigotry that doesn’t make you a bad person, it means you’ve made a bad decision- but bad decisions don’t define you as a bad person. 

Back to the point. You misrepresented me and others. You claimed that “leftists” have asserted that the players who chose to attend the White House were racists. You were asked to provide an example from here or elsewhere. You haven’t. And this is a pattern with you, you do this all the time in a number of threads. 

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

The University of Virginia basketball team won’t have to face this dilemma, because as a team they have declined to accept the White House’s Invitation: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/04/27/sports/virginia-basketball-trump-white-house.amp.html

I’m sure the players on Virginia would love the opportunity to visit the White House, but they’ve chosen not to tolerate President Trump’s racism 

Too bad for them.  No sympathy because without a no call on a blatant double dribble they are leaving Minneapolis two days earlier.

 

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3 minutes ago, Shula-holic said:

Too bad for them.  No sympathy because without a no call on a blatant double dribble they are leaving Minneapolis two days earlier.

 

I don’t think they’re looking for your sympathy. 

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17 hours ago, timschochet said:

I agreed with this argument when it came to the Presidential Medal of Freedom, but I don't agree with you here. I draw a distinction between the two: here there is no formal award.

IMO, President Trump caused this, not simply through his comments about minorities (and Puerto Rico in particular), but because he has deliberately politicized what was traditionally a non political event.

shocker  :coffee:

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

I don’t think they’re looking for your sympathy. 

I doubt that the Clemson football players who visited the White House view themselves looking the other way at bigotry or racism either.  But using UVA players to try and support your slant on calling someone a racist didn't stop you.  Carry on.

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12 hours ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

I don't think any ballplayer is putting their career in jeopardy by refusing to go to the WH. Do you?

Nope....maybe, in liberal city such as Boston MA, going out in public would become more of a risk.

There's nothing like you, your wife and kids, being marched naked through the streets while someone walks behind you, chiming a bell, and yelling, "SHAME....SHAME....SHAME"

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1 minute ago, Shula-holic said:

I doubt that the Clemson football players who visited the White House view themselves looking the other way at bigotry or racism either.  But using UVA players to try and support your slant on calling someone a racist didn't stop you.  Carry on.

You’re now the second person who has made this charge. Back it up please. 

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3 minutes ago, Shula-holic said:

I doubt that the Clemson football players who visited the White House view themselves looking the other way at bigotry 

As to this point, you’re absolutely right. Almost nobody who looks the other way at bigotry realizes that they’re doing so. It’s up to the rest of us to gently point it out. 

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Can't read the article because it's blocked but didn't Tony Bennett say they weren't attending because so many players were leaving early and it wouldn't be feasible?  Did he change his comments and make it political?

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

You’re now the second person who has made this charge. Back it up please. 

 

1 hour ago, timschochet said:

The University of Virginia basketball team won’t have to face this dilemma, because as a team they have declined to accept the White House’s Invitation: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/04/27/sports/virginia-basketball-trump-white-house.amp.html

I’m sure the players on Virginia would love the opportunity to visit the White House, but they’ve chosen not to tolerate President Trump’s racism 

Here ya go.  I'll help out just this once.  

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Just now, Shula-holic said:

 

 

Here ya go.  I'll help out just this once.  

My apologies. I thought you were repeating the claim that I had called white players who went to the White House racist. But you’re referring to me calling the President racist? That I will own, proudly (though I usually prefer the term bigot as it’s more apt.) 

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6 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Can't read the article because it's blocked but didn't Tony Bennett say they weren't attending because so many players were leaving early and it wouldn't be feasible?  Did he change his comments and make it political?

That is indeed what Bennett said; he was being diplomatic. But interviews with players revealed that they bluntly told the coach they would not go because of Trump. De Andre Turner (hope I have the name right) tweeted it. 

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

That is indeed what Bennett said; he was being diplomatic. But interviews with players revealed that they bluntly told the coach they would not go because of Trump. De Andre Turner (hope I have the name right) tweeted it. 

So you're twisting Bennett's words around to fit your narrative and don't even know the name of the player you're apparently quoting?  :lmao:

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

That is indeed what Bennett said; he was being diplomatic. But interviews with players revealed that they bluntly told the coach they would not go because of Trump. De Andre Turner (hope I have the name right) tweeted it. 

I'm sure there's truth in that.  It's likely also true not 100% of the players felt that way.  But if you are in the minority you aren't going to speak up as a teammate and say "I really wanted to go".  That's not the way it works.  That is also likely why Tony Bennett put it the way he did, and I respect him for handling it that way even not knowing his own personal beliefs on it are, he's representing the team in its entirety.

I suspect we are past the days of teams making these trips in totality anymore anyway.  People who have right leaning beliefs will remember this the next time a Democrat is in office and will try and make their point by not going.  I have no true ill will toward anyone who chooses to go or not.  If it's your true conviction, more power to you.  I question it some when some choose to go the route of making a story over it because I really am not sure why any of us should care what an athlete thinks of a political figure or topic.

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Just now, Ramblin Wreck said:

So you're twisting Bennett's words around to fit your narrative and don't even know the name of the player you're apparently quoting?  :lmao:

I didn’t twist Bennett’s words around at all. I didn’t even mention Bennett; you did. I simply quoted an article. 

Why are you always so resistant to when people make stands against racism? I’ve noticed that whenever this issue comes up in this forum, whether it’s Kaepernick, or the people who complained about Starbucks, or certain instances of police mistreatment of young blacks, or now this situation, you are one of the first people to rush in and attack whoever is making the charge of racism. Why does it bother you so much? 

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16 hours ago, sho nuff said:

How can anyone have a problem at all if someone declines to go?

I agree..always thought it was a stupid thing to do anyway. A bunch of millionaire athletes are put together on a team, in a town none of them are from and they win a title.  The next year if they can they will be in another town playing for more money.  Why waste a day of "any POTUS" for something as trivial as this?  Nobody really cares and it does not benefit the country.

Do a parade and celebrate in the city that wins and call it a day. Any kind of pro league title is a local event.   The next season half of the national fans forget who even won the year before..unless of course it is the NFL they would assume Tom Brady and the Pats won.

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Just now, Shula-holic said:

 

I suspect we are past the days of teams making these trips in totality anymore anyway.  People who have right leaning beliefs will remember this the next time a Democrat is in office and will try and make their point by not going.  .

No. You just don’t get it. This is not about politics. Ivan K explained this last night. No other President in living memory deserves this sort of treatment. Trump does because he is uniquely a bigot. It has nothing to do with the R next to his name. It’s not conservatives, or the Republican Party. It’s him. He’s the bad guy and the reason some are choosing not to come. Once he’s gone this won’t continue. 

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3 minutes ago, Shula-holic said:

I'm sure there's truth in that.  It's likely also true not 100% of the players felt that way.  But if you are in the minority you aren't going to speak up as a teammate and say "I really wanted to go".  That's not the way it works.  That is also likely why Tony Bennett put it the way he did, and I respect him for handling it that way even not knowing his own personal beliefs on it are, he's representing the team in its entirety.

I suspect we are past the days of teams making these trips in totality anymore anyway.  People who have right leaning beliefs will remember this the next time a Democrat is in office and will try and make their point by not going.  I have no true ill will toward anyone who chooses to go or not.  If it's your true conviction, more power to you.  I question it some when some choose to go the route of making a story over it because I really am not sure why any of us should care what an athlete thinks of a political figure or topic.

Exactly 

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2 minutes ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

Exactly 

Really? So we shouldn’t care what athletes think? 

Do you believe that Muhammad Ali’s stances made a difference to our society? 

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I didn’t twist Bennett’s words around at all. I didn’t even mention Bennett; you did. I simply quoted an article. 

Why are you always so resistant to when people make stands against racism? I’ve noticed that whenever this issue comes up in this forum, whether it’s Kaepernick, or the people who complained about Starbucks, or certain instances of police mistreatment of young blacks, or now this situation, you are one of the first people to rush in and attack whoever is making the charge of racism. Why does it bother you so much? 

Don't start moving the goalposts.  You brought up UVA to push your agenda.  I simply stated that Bennett made a public comment why UVA wasn't attending and asked if he had made another one.  Clearly, he did not since you can't quote him so you ASSUME UVA isn't going for the reason you don't want them to go.  You've provided nothing from the school or the head coach that states that is the reason.  Nothing at all.  Support your accusation.

And stop your lying BS about Kaepernick.  I never said he couldn't protest.  I've even said his protest could be beneficial but he was going about it the wrong way.  Guess what?  I was correct.  He ended up being paid off to go away after making a complete ### of himself with things like pig socks.  

Link me where I support police mistreating young blacks?  Or just shut up for once and stop accusing people of things they don't do or say.   You're up at 6 in the morning whining on the internet about racism.  Oh, by the way you're in a thread where you already claimed you weren't attacking anyone but it's one attack after another.   Stop misquoting me.  Didn't Joe Bryant already tell you to knock this crap off when you were misquoting him?

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

No. You just don’t get it. This is not about politics. Ivan K explained this last night. No other President in living memory deserves this sort of treatment. Trump does because he is uniquely a bigot. It has nothing to do with the R next to his name. It’s not conservatives, or the Republican Party. It’s him. He’s the bad guy and the reason some are choosing not to come. Once he’s gone this won’t continue. 

I just really don't think it should matter to any of us what an athlete thinks of someones politics.  I don't really care what my car mechanic thinks of my investment portfolio nor what my investment guy thinks of my vehicle.  So I do get it even though you think I don't.  I get that it's a story when it fits with our own slant or agenda, you want Trump to be racist and so some athlete agrees with you and you see it as validation.  It doesn't make your view any more valid than it validates someone who feels the opposite when an athlete chooses to go.

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2 hours ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

What’s the whole point of the thread?   What are the bad optics?

"The Red Sox were invited to the White House. Turned out only the white Sox went."

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1 minute ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Don't start moving the goalposts.  You brought up UVA to push your agenda.  I simply stated that Bennett made a public comment why UVA wasn't attending and asked if he had made another one.  Clearly, he did not since you can't quote him so you ASSUME UVA isn't going for the reason you don't want them to go.  You've provided nothing from the school or the head coach that states that is the reason.  Nothing at all.  Support your accusation.

And stop your lying BS about Kaepernick.  I never said he couldn't protest.  I've even said his protest could be beneficial but he was going about it the wrong way.  Guess what?  I was correct.  He ended up being paid off to go away after making a complete ### of himself with things like pig socks.  

Link me where I support police mistreating young blacks?  Or just shut up for once and stop accusing people of things they don't do or say.   You're up at 6 in the morning whining on the internet about racism.  Oh, by the way you're in a thread where you already claimed you weren't attacking anyone but it's one attack after another.   Stop misquoting me.  Didn't Joe Bryant already tell you to knock this crap off when you were misquoting him?

I didn’t misquote you. I haven’t moved any goalposts either. 

I forgot how badly you respond to criticism of any kind. Your post speaks for itself; I’ll leave this alone now. 

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Really? So we shouldn’t care what athletes think? 

Do you believe that Muhammad Ali’s stances made a difference to our society? 

Times have changed, everybody and their brother has a Twitter account etc.

Everyone has the need to let everybody in the world know their thoughts now.

There will be no more Ali's

I really don't care what any of the Boston Red Sox think about anyting or any other athlete for that matter

 

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This is a garbage thread.

And maybe Cuban support should tell you something about the real party of freedom. 

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Just now, supermike80 said:

Wow..You haven't looked deep enough----read this thread.   One poster makes it very clear that those that attend either are bigots or are willing to look the other way when it comes to bigotry by attending the event.  Rather than saying hey, these guys earned a trip to the white house..Nope..They are bigots OR are supporting bigotry by going.

Saying someone is willing to look the other way when it comes to bigotry is NOT the same as calling someone a racist.  In the 1930's millions of people were willing to look the other way because it was safer. That didn't make them racists (or even bigots).  Not everyone has the courage to stand up to such things. 

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1 minute ago, Shula-holic said:

I just really don't think it should matter to any of us what an athlete thinks of someones politics.  I don't really care what my car mechanic thinks of my investment portfolio nor what my investment guy thinks of my vehicle.  So I do get it even though you think I don't.  I get that it's a story when it fits with our own slant or agenda, you want Trump to be racist and so some athlete agrees with you and you see it as validation.  It doesn't make your view any more valid than it validates someone who feels the opposite when an athlete chooses to go.

Two corrections: 

1. I don’t want Trump to be racist. I’d prefer it if he wasn’t. 

2. People who agree with me, whether they are celebrities of not, don’t help to validate my viewpoint. My viewpoint on whether or not Trump is a racist can only be validated one way or the other by evidence. Unfortunately there is a lot of evidence to validate that viewpoint, so much so that any informed person who thinks he is NOT a racist, or at the very least a bigot, is IMO being disingenuous to themselves or others. 

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19 minutes ago, timschochet said:

That is indeed what Bennett said; he was being diplomatic. But interviews with players revealed that they bluntly told the coach they would not go because of Trump. De Andre Turner (hope I have the name right) tweeted it. 

I don't post here often, but I think using the Virginia's basketball team is grasping to fit this narrative. 2 players simply said no. One is playing professionally in France, and the other is Turner. 

 

Bennett said it's too difficult to get everyone back together. Maybe that's true. Maybe he's being diplomatic. Who knows what the rest of the team wants. Maybe 5 guys wanted to go? 4? Who knows. What I do know is the coverage is automatically shifted to 2 individuals. 2. Not nearly a consensus of the team or what the other players wanted. 

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5 minutes ago, rockaction said:

 

And maybe Cuban support should tell you something about the real party of freedom. 

It took me a moment to figure this out, at first I thought you were referencing Mark. 

You’re wrong though. Cuban American support of Republicans goes back to the Bay of Pigs and the belief that they were betrayed by JFK. Over the years it’s become knee jerk and has very little to do with ideology, and certainly not with anything so general as the word “freedom”. 

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8 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I didn’t misquote you. I haven’t moved any goalposts either. 

I forgot how badly you respond to criticism of any kind. Your post speaks for itself; I’ll leave this alone now. 

Again, didn't Joe Bryant tell you to knock this crap off where you twist things around to fit your narrative when you tried doing it to him?  Again, support your BS claims or apologize for your falsehoods.  

And :lmao:at badly responding to criticism.  I bet you thought everyone would assume your false narrative regarding UVA would be true and you can't handle getting called out for your BS.  Again.

 

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5 minutes ago, crackattack said:

I don't post here often, but I think using the Virginia's basketball team is grasping to fit this narrative. 2 players simply said no. One is playing professionally in France, and the other is Turner. 

 

Bennett said it's too difficult to get everyone back together. Maybe that's true. Maybe he's being diplomatic. Who knows what the rest of the team wants. Maybe 5 guys wanted to go? 4? Who knows. What I do know is the coverage is automatically shifted to 2 individuals. 2. Not nearly a consensus of the team or what the other players wanted. 

Exactly.  Maybe it was truly a majority, we have no real way to know.  But there was a claim this was done as a team to "not tolerate President Trump's racism".  I can quote the post if need be I guess.  But in the end we don't know and I'm not sure why we should even care other than people use stories like this to try and support their own political narrative.

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4 minutes ago, crackattack said:

I don't post here often, but I think using the Virginia's basketball team is grasping to fit this narrative. 2 players simply said no. One is playing professionally in France, and the other is Turner. 

 

Bennett said it's too difficult to get everyone back together. Maybe that's true. Maybe he's being diplomatic. Who knows what the rest of the team wants. Maybe 5 guys wanted to go? 4? Who knows. What I do know is the coverage is automatically shifted to 2 individuals. 2. Not nearly a consensus of the team or what the other players wanted. 

The reason I brought up Virginia is because Joe Scarborough mentioned them this morning and said they didn’t go because of Trump. Until I heard that I was unaware of the fact. I looked it up and the first article I found seemed to confirm the fact so I posted it. 

But I don’t really need to grasp to make the same point. If I wanted to find a more famous example of a team, I could just have easily gone with the Golden State Warriors. 

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17 hours ago, timschochet said:

I didn't write that, and I don't believe it. I'm pretty sure the players get along fine.

But I do think there is a bigger issue here involving the white players, and white people in general in this country: there are millions of white people in America who know Donald Trump is a bigot, don't agree with him, but don't care enough about the issue to make a big deal about it. I suspect that many of the white players on the team fall into this category. I suspect many white Republicans in general fall into this category. It's disturbing to me.  They should care, IMO.

Hey guys Tim isn't attacking anyone in this thread.  There's not really a bigger issue involving white players in a thread he used the phrase "terrible optics" in the title regarding their decisions.  Nooooo, he's not attacking their actions at all.   I bet he claims he's not being racist either.

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

The reason I brought up Virginia is because Joe Scarborough mentioned them this morning and said they didn’t go because of Trump. Until I heard that I was unaware of the fact. I looked it up and the first article I found seemed to confirm the fact so I posted it. 

But I don’t really need to grasp to make the same point. If I wanted to find a more famous example of a team, I could just have easily gone with the Golden State Warriors. 

The Golden State Warriors is a perfectly fine example of a team decision. The Virginia example is not. 2 players said no. Bennett said it's difficult to get everyone back together. Like I said, maybe the majority would have gone. Maybe not. So it's not really a fact that the "team" decided not to go.

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4 minutes ago, crackattack said:

The Golden State Warriors is a perfectly fine example of a team decision. The Virginia example is not. 2 players said no. Bennett said it's difficult to get everyone back together. Like I said, maybe the majority would have gone. Maybe not. So it's not really a fact that the "team" decided not to go.

Fair enough. I accept your distinction. I didn’t mean to misrepresent anyone. 

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