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Is Kareem Hunt suspended at this moment? (1 Viewer)

kutta

kutta

Footballguy
We all know Kareem Hunt is suspended for the first eight games of the season. But is he officially suspended at this very moment?

Our dynasty league allows players on IR or players who are suspended to be put on IR. We have 22 roster spots and 2 IR spots. Currently, Hunt is listed as "suspended," so his owner can put him on IR, freeing up a roster spot for the rookie draft.

There is debate amongst the league as to whether or not this should be allowed with Hunt. 

There are a lot of articles online saying his suspension starts at the start of the season. Here's one:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26272054/browns-rb-hunt-suspended-8-games-league

"Hunt can take part in the team's OTAs, minicamps and preseason games. His suspension will not take effect until Aug. 31, the day of final roster reductions before the season opener. The Browns expect him to be present for the start of offseason workouts April 1."

Just wanted to get the Shark Pool take on whether or not players suspended for the first x number of games are also considered suspended during the summer.

 
Not officially. 

The official suspension is August 31st as noted in the official league statement.

In our league we avoid these sort of issues by saying the league goes with how our software lists the player even owners have a valid argument against the listing.

It evens out in the end so I would simply go with how your software lists him to avoid infighting.

 
Bracie Smathers said:
Not officially. 

The official suspension is August 31st as noted in the official league statement.

In our league we avoid these sort of issues by saying the league goes with how our software lists the player even owners have a valid argument against the listing.

It evens out in the end so I would simply go with how your software lists him to avoid infighting.
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yep - use the software designation

 
Bracie Smathers said:
Not officially. 

The official suspension is August 31st as noted in the official league statement.

In our league we avoid these sort of issues by saying the league goes with how our software lists the player even owners have a valid argument against the listing.

It evens out in the end so I would simply go with how your software lists him to avoid infighting.
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We do use the league SW, and that's the final say.

Some just think the league SW is incorrect.

 
kutta said:
We do use the league SW, and that's the final say.

Some just think the league SW is incorrect.
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Only thing you can really do about it is email support and ask them to change the designation until it truly takes effect on 8/31.  They'll either agree with your stance or won't.

 
tangfoot said:
Only thing you can really do about it is email support and ask them to change the designation until it truly takes effect on 8/31.  They'll either agree with your stance or won't.
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I'm just having trouble finding the actual league statement where it says the suspension begins August 31. I see a lot of articles about it, but not the actual NFL statement.

 
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kutta said:
We all know Kareem Hunt is suspended for the first eight games of the season. But is he officially suspended at this very moment?

Our dynasty league allows players on IR or players who are suspended to be put on IR. We have 22 roster spots and 2 IR spots. Currently, Hunt is listed as "suspended," so his owner can put him on IR, freeing up a roster spot for the rookie draft.

There is debate amongst the league as to whether or not this should be allowed with Hunt. 

There are a lot of articles online saying his suspension starts at the start of the season. Here's one:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26272054/browns-rb-hunt-suspended-8-games-league

"Hunt can take part in the team's OTAs, minicamps and preseason games. His suspension will not take effect until Aug. 31, the day of final roster reductions before the season opener. The Browns expect him to be present for the start of offseason workouts April 1."

Just wanted to get the Shark Pool take on whether or not players suspended for the first x number of games are also considered suspended during the summer.
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In my leagues players on IR count towards the roster limit before and during the rookie draft. A couple of my leagues expressly prohibit players being on IR prior to the rookie draft.

 
It sounds to me like your league needs a rule change.  I'm in a couple leagues where the IR is required to be emptied as soon as the league year rolls over on MFL and is not active again until the Week 1 designations come out.

 
tangfoot said:
It sounds to me like your league needs a rule change.  I'm in a couple leagues where the IR is required to be emptied as soon as the league year rolls over on MFL and is not active again until the Week 1 designations come out.
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I'm right there with ya.

 
The purpose of having an IR in FF is to allow you to use their roster spot without penalty (in this case, penalty would mean competing with one less player since he's injured).

It doesn't make since to have IR in the offseason because it would actually be an advantage since no games are being played (essentially allowing you to work with a bigger roster). The same goes for suspension. It should only be utilized in-season, IMO.

That said, I don't particularly like having an IR/Suspended rule, especially with large rosters (again, it can be an advantage), but I digress.

 
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kutta said:
We all know Kareem Hunt is suspended for the first eight games of the season. But is he officially suspended at this very moment?

Our dynasty league allows players on IR or players who are suspended to be put on IR. We have 22 roster spots and 2 IR spots. Currently, Hunt is listed as "suspended," so his owner can put him on IR, freeing up a roster spot for the rookie draft.

There is debate amongst the league as to whether or not this should be allowed with Hunt. 

There are a lot of articles online saying his suspension starts at the start of the season. Here's one:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26272054/browns-rb-hunt-suspended-8-games-league

"Hunt can take part in the team's OTAs, minicamps and preseason games. His suspension will not take effect until Aug. 31, the day of final roster reductions before the season opener. The Browns expect him to be present for the start of offseason workouts April 1."

Just wanted to get the Shark Pool take on whether or not players suspended for the first x number of games are also considered suspended during the summer.
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As commish I would allow this, yes.  The spirit of the rule is a player that you know won't be available shouldn't count against your cap.  That's clearly the case here.

eta:  It should definitely be clarified though, since the spirit of that rule was probably intended to be for long periods of time but a player might only get a 2 games suspension.  I think my ruling would remain on this one, as an IR player would be eligible to Return from IR by NFL rules after 8 games, the same length as this suspension, but shorter suspensions/exempt list could get really sticky.

 
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kutta said:
There are a lot of articles online saying his suspension starts at the start of the season. Here's one:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26272054/browns-rb-hunt-suspended-8-games-league

"Hunt can take part in the team's OTAs, minicamps and preseason games. His suspension will not take effect until Aug. 31, the day of final roster reductions before the season opener. The Browns expect him to be present for the start of offseason workouts April 1."
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It clarify, this is for NFLPA/insurance/liability reasons.  This allows the player to be present for off-season programs at team facilities and functions and still be covered by everything.  If he was officially suspended now he wouldn't be allowed to work with the team or be covered against injury.

 
kutta said:
We do use the league SW, and that's the final say.

Some just think the league SW is incorrect.
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I think you answered your own question for this situation.  However, if nobody likes the rule for this situation you should get it clarified and ratified into your rules for FUTURE issues.  You cannot change the rules at this time and change how it effects this situation because it is already in play.   

 
Gally said:
I think you answered your own question for this situation.  However, if nobody likes the rule for this situation you should get it clarified and ratified into your rules for FUTURE issues.  You cannot change the rules at this time and change how it effects this situation because it is already in play.   
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We are not talking about changing the rule now. The debate we are having is two-fold:

1. Should Hunt be considered suspended right now? The league SW says he is, but we could e-mail them and ask for clarification. If he stays listed as "suspended," his owner is free to keep him on IR per our rules.

2. Should we change our rule in the future to not allow IR designations after one season and before the next.

 
Hankmoody said:
It clarify, this is for NFLPA/insurance/liability reasons.  This allows the player to be present for off-season programs at team facilities and functions and still be covered by everything.  If he was officially suspended now he wouldn't be allowed to work with the team or be covered against injury.
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Do you have a link for that? I can't find much on NFL suspensions.

The point still remains though, is that Hunt is really not suspended right now. It would be like a guy tearing his ACL and you know he's going to go on IR, but he's not on IR just yet officially. If the league SW put that guy on IR before he was officially on IR from the team, it seems like that would be an error.

 
kutta said:
Do you have a link for that? I can't find much on NFL suspensions.

The point still remains though, is that Hunt is really not suspended right now. It would be like a guy tearing his ACL and you know he's going to go on IR, but he's not on IR just yet officially. If the league SW put that guy on IR before he was officially on IR from the team, it seems like that would be an error.
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No direct link, but it was recently changed.  It used to be guys suspended to start the season couldn't participate in pre-season stuff.  I think it was after Gordon that they changed it.

If you are wanting to run letter of the law then no, he is not suspended and the software is in error.  You'll note the Browns have not yet placed him on the Reserve - Suspended list as evidence of this.  A number of players, like Crowell, have been offically placed on Reserve - Injured list.

https://www.footballdb.com/transactions/index.html?period=4w

 
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Hankmoody said:
No direct link, but it was recently changed.  It used to be guys suspended to start the season couldn't participate in pre-season stuff.  I think it was after Gordon that they changed it.

If you are wanting to run letter of the law then no, he is not suspended and the software is in error.  You'll note the Browns have not yet placed him on the Reserve - Suspended list as evidence of this.

https://www.footballdb.com/transactions/index.html?period=4w
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Interesting. Thanks. So he would show up on this list if he was officially suspended?

And yes, this is one of those "letter of the law" debates. Lawyers and engineers and accountants make up a lot of the league, so it's pretty interesting.

 
kutta said:
Interesting. Thanks. So he would show up on this list if he was officially suspended?

And yes, this is one of those "letter of the law" debates. Lawyers and engineers and accountants make up a lot of the league, so it's pretty interesting.
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I don't know if it's NFL endorsed, but it's likely it parses some API the NFL supports. 

https://www.footballdb.com/transactions/index.html?period=201812

New England Patriots

Placed WR Josh Gordon on the Reserve/Suspended List.

edit:  Even better:

https://www.footballdb.com/transactions/index.html?period=201809

September 1, 2018

Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Placed QB Jameis Winston on the Reserve/Suspended List.

 
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Hankmoody said:
I don't know if it's NFL endorsed, but it's likely it parses some API the NFL supports. 

https://www.footballdb.com/transactions/index.html?period=201812

New England Patriots

Placed WR Josh Gordon on the Reserve/Suspended List.

edit:  Even better:

https://www.footballdb.com/transactions/index.html?period=201809

September 1, 2018

Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Placed QB Jameis Winston on the Reserve/Suspended List.
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Man, this is perfect. Exactly the type of evidence I was looking for.

Nowhere is Hunt on those lists.

Thanks!

 
And sorry, but having a league rule that "software is final" is dumb.  This here is why.  There's gotta be some level of override available.  Letter of the law or not, you can't let the wrong thing happen because someone else f'd up.  If you wanna do letter of the law for the rule as written, cool, but in that case he's not eligible.

 
Hankmoody said:
No direct link, but it was recently changed.  It used to be guys suspended to start the season couldn't participate in pre-season stuff.  I think it was after Gordon that they changed it.
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Mark Ingram practiced and played all through 2018 training camp and pre-season. Only after the 4th preseason game did his four-game regular-season suspension kick in.

 
Hankmoody said:
And sorry, but having a league rule that "software is final" is dumb.  This here is why.  There's gotta be some level of override available.  Letter of the law or not, you can't let the wrong thing happen because someone else f'd up.  If you wanna do letter of the law for the rule as written, cool, but in that case he's not eligible.
Click to expand...
Agreed, but the problem is the guy who owns Hunt is the commish, so he's not changing anything. And we have all pretty much agreed that league SW rules these types of things, so he probably wouldn't change it in any case.

It's funny - it's not really that big of a deal. It's now more of a princple thing than anything.

I sent a ticket to MFL to ask them to change the designation of Hunt because he is really not suspended right now. I'll report back when I hear from them.

 
kutta said:
Should Hunt be considered suspended right now?
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He cannot play until his official suspension is served.

He cannot score any fantasy points.

Can't play, can't score points... Now or later how will his situation change other than semantics?    :shrug:

Other than being officially on the suspended list he is suspended for NFL and fantasy purposes so why shouldn't he be considered suspended right now?

 
tangfoot said:
Because he is allowed to practice, attend training camp, and play in preseason games?

The official NFL announcement says "The eight-game suspension will take effect as of the final roster reduction on August 31."

https://twitter.com/ByMikeJones/status/1106557068838952961
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I'm speaking to the point of use to a FF team, he can't produce points.  Technical matters aside what is the difference if he is of no use to the team until he's off suspension if a league allows suspended players IR designation? 

FWIW the league I play in does not allow suspended players IR designation so if they are looking for a fix then do not allow suspended players to be placed on IR but for their current rules Hunt can't score points until he's off suspension so he is essentially like an injured player according to their rules. 

 
Bracie Smathers said:
I'm speaking to the point of use to a FF team, he can't produce points.  Technical matters aside what is the difference if he is of no use to the team until he's off suspension if a league allows suspended players IR designation? 

FWIW the league I play in does not allow suspended players IR designation so if they are looking for a fix then do not allow suspended players to be placed on IR but for their current rules Hunt can't score points until he's off suspension so he is essentially like an injured player according to their rules. 
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The point of the original question is how do you treat Hunt from now until his suspension officially begins.

Based on your reasoning, every player in the NFL can't score points until Week 1 and should be eligible for whatever designation you want to apply to them. 

 
Bracie Smathers said:
I'm speaking to the point of use to a FF team, he can't produce points.  Technical matters aside what is the difference if he is of no use to the team until he's off suspension if a league allows suspended players IR designation? 

FWIW the league I play in does not allow suspended players IR designation so if they are looking for a fix then do not allow suspended players to be placed on IR but for their current rules Hunt can't score points until he's off suspension so he is essentially like an injured player according to their rules. 
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As Tangfoot said, he’s  just as much use to the team as every other player on the roster right now. 

And I would argue that he is of use to the team. He’s of more use to the team than Josh Gordon is to the Pats, because he actually is suspended right now and can’t participate in team activities.

 
kutta said:
As Tangfoot said, he’s  just as much use to the team as every other player on the roster right now. 

And I would argue that he is of use to the team. He’s of more use to the team than Josh Gordon is to the Pats, because he actually is suspended right now and can’t participate in team activities.
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That is real football.

For FF purposes, he is suspended imo.

 
tangfoot said:
The point of the original question is how do you treat Hunt from now until his suspension officially begins.

Based on your reasoning, every player in the NFL can't score points until Week 1 and should be eligible for whatever designation you want to apply to them. 
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He is suspended for the next game.. for FF purposes what else matters?

 
kutta said:
I matters because he isn’t suspended yet in real football and his owner gets an extra roster spot over the summer because of it.
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Real football isn't FF.

If your player is suspended for the next game, whether next week or 12 weeks - for FF it is all the same.

 
You guys are severely underestimating the importance of having Hunt on your fantasy practice field helping your new rookies adjust to life in the YourNameHere FFootball League!

Just watching him prepare and watch fantasy film (Lord of the Rings?) can only help their development!

 
kutta said:
I, and a lot of others it seems, disagree with you.
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Good luck fighting the good fight. 

I guess all that matters are the league rules, or the default settings for the site/software running it.

 
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wait, your league doesn’t have expanded rosters in the off season?

i don’t think i’ve ever played in a dynasty league like that.  

 
The injury/suspended designations on MFL are from last year. Players are listed as questionable, for crying out loud. No way should Hunt be considered suspended until the season starts.

 
Jello_Biafra said:
The injury/suspended designations on MFL are from last year. Players are listed as questionable, for crying out loud. No way should Hunt be considered suspended until the season starts. 
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No they aren't, not all of them.  Hunt was NOT suspended last year and Crowell was not on IR either.

 
Jello_Biafra said:
The injury/suspended designations on MFL are from last year. Players are listed as questionable, for crying out loud. No way should Hunt be considered suspended until the season starts.
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No they aren't. Crowell is on IR a D Gordon is suspended. 

 
Jello_Biafra said:
Valid examples, but why would players be listed as Q?
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I think when they rolled over to the new year, MFL just shifted everyone that ended last year on IR to Q, reflecting that the NFL does not carry players over on IR between league years.  Gordon and Crowell’s status changes happened after the rollover and thus are up to date.

 
Arodin said:
I think when they rolled over to the new year, MFL just shifted everyone that ended last year on IR to Q, reflecting that the NFL does not carry players over on IR between league years.  Gordon and Crowell’s status changes happened after the rollover and thus are up to date.
Click to expand...
NFL doesn't have any official designations in the off-season, so it's likely MFL just left everyone that had any injury designation as questionable.  Then as official designations come out like NFI and IR the updates flow.  Hopkins, Kelce, Gurley are all questionable on my roster but weren't on IR to end the season.

 
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