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IC FBGCav

To prolife advocates.

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Do you care as much about fetus as you do the baby?  

Show your work.  Killing a fetus is murder in your mind.  I get it. Show the fund and programs supporting the future of the fetus.  

How do you overcome parents having children they don't want?

 

Show me your path please.

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7 minutes ago, IC FBGCav said:

Do you care as much about fetus as you do the baby?  

Show your work.  Killing a fetus is murder in your mind.  I get it. Show the fund and programs supporting the future of the fetus.  

How do you overcome parents having children they don't want?

 

Show me your path please.

This doesn't seem like all that complicated a path.  Substantially more funding would be needed to support organizations that deal with adoptions, orphans, foster families, right on down the line.

Full disclosure....I'm not full on "abortion is wrong in every single instance", but I'd never suggest it as a form of birth control and think people who use it as such are scum of the earth.  If that makes me "pro life" then you've got a response from at least one of those you are asking.

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1 minute ago, The Commish said:

This doesn't seem like all that complicated a path.  Substantially more funding would be needed to support organizations that deal with adoptions, orphans, foster families, right on down the line.

Full disclosure....I'm not full on "abortion is wrong in every single instance", but I'd never suggest it as a form of birth control and think people who use it as such are scum of the earth.  If that makes me "pro life" then you've got a response from at least one of those you are asking.

I am pro life but not an idiot.  No one answers the question.  How do you take care of the child in real life.  Most pro lifers hate social programs.  

I say this.  All fetus live, now what?  Crickets.  Cause they don't really care.

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2 minutes ago, IC FBGCav said:

I am pro life but not an idiot.  No one answers the question.  How do you take care of the child in real life.  Most pro lifers hate social programs.  

I say this.  All fetus live, now what?  Crickets.  Cause they don't really care.

I just did....it would be at the feet of the government to take care of them or at their feet to provide funding to private organizations to take care of it.  :shrug:

 

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Just now, The Commish said:

I just did....it would be at the feet of the government to take care of them or at their feet to provide funding to private organizations to take care of it.  :shrug:

 

Do you trust that?  

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2 minutes ago, IC FBGCav said:

Do you trust that?  

What do you mean?  I think NGOs are far more efficient in this area in this country.  If you leave it in the hands of the politicians all you're really doing is giving them more pawns to play with.  I don't think that's a good idea.

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How care you make someone raise a child properly?  If pro life people care that much there should be money, families and programs to care for every child.  If they really care.....but that does not exist and it will never be in place no matter what the law is because they care about the stance and not the child.  

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1 minute ago, The Commish said:

What do you mean?  I think NGOs are far more efficient in this area in this country.  If you leave it in the hands of the politicians all you're really doing is giving them more pawns to play with.  I don't think that's a good idea.

Churches hate abortions and are private.  Show me their programs for unwanted kids.

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5 minutes ago, IC FBGCav said:

Churches hate abortions and are private.  Show me their programs for unwanted kids.

What are you talking about?  How about you just get to your point and stop all these stupid posts :shrug: 

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9 minutes ago, The Commish said:

What are you talking about?  How about you just get to your point and stop all these stupid posts :shrug: 

He’s a little riled up over today’s loss. Put him on tilt , real bad

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11 minutes ago, The Commish said:

What are you talking about?  How about you just get to your point and stop all these stupid posts :shrug: 

Tell me how you will deal with the baby's if roe v wade is over turned?

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45 minutes ago, IC FBGCav said:

Do you care as much about fetus as you do the baby?  

Show your work.  Killing a fetus is murder in your mind.  I get it. Show the fund and programs supporting the future of the fetus.  

How do you overcome parents having children they don't want?

 

Show me your path please.

If the pro-life people think that killing a fetus is murder, that belief is really all that matters to them.

Whether they care about the fetus more than the baby, or whether they personally believe in political ideals that help poor people isn’t really relevant, is it?  

We all believe that the murder of 2-year old babies is wrong, right?  Yet we all have varying opinions on different issues, we have different levels of empathy, and different levels of love for humanity.

Im sure there are some pro-lifers that are total hypocrites.  But there are many that are not.

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2 minutes ago, shader said:

If the pro-life people think that killing a fetus is murder, that belief is really all that matters to them.

Whether they care about the fetus more than the baby, or whether they personally believe in political ideals that help poor people isn’t really relevant, is it?  

We all believe that the murder of 2-year old babies is wrong, right?  Yet we all have varying opinions on different issues, we have different levels of empathy, and different levels of love for humanity.

Im sure there are some pro-lifers that are total hypocrites.  But there are many that are not.

That is fair but a long way from being moral or practical.

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18 minutes ago, IC FBGCav said:

That is fair but a long way from being moral or practical.

A pro-life person would probably say that giving someone the chance to live a full life is more moral than killing them, so I don’t get your morality point.

I agree with you that there aren’t good practical solutions for mothers who don’t have the morality to care for their new child.

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1 hour ago, The Commish said:

I'm not full on "abortion is wrong in every single instance", but I'd never suggest it as a form of birth control and think people who use it as such are scum of the earth.  

I think this is very judgmental. Not everyone shares what I’m assuming is your belief regarding when life begins. If a woman honestly doesn’t see a fetus as a human being, then I don’t think you have any cause to regard her as “scum of the Earth” if she decides to have an abortion as a form of birth control. 

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6 minutes ago, shader said:

A pro-life person would probably say that giving someone the chance to live a full life is more moral than killing them, so I don’t get your morality point.

I agree with you that there aren’t good practical solutions for mothers who don’t have the morality to care for their new child.

I think we can agree most people going to have an abortion flat out can't afford a child or don't want one.  So if you don't have programs in place we are talking about what is better.  Killing a fetus or a baby living through torture.  Take the moral side of that one.  I can't.

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1 hour ago, IC FBGCav said:
1 hour ago, shader said:

A pro-life person would probably say that giving someone the chance to live a full life is more moral than killing them, so I don’t get your morality point.

I agree with you that there aren’t good practical solutions for mothers who don’t have the morality to care for their new child.

I think we can agree most people going to have an abortion flat out can't afford a child or don't want one.  So if you don't have programs in place we are talking about what is better.  Killing a fetus or a baby living through torture.  Take the moral side of that one.  I can't.

If just one baby grows up to be a successful human being, it will have been worth it.

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3 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

If just one baby grows up to be a successful human being, it will have been worth it.

Even if the others kill 5 or 10?

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8 hours ago, timschochet said:

I think this is very judgmental. Not everyone shares what I’m assuming is your belief regarding when life begins. If a woman honestly doesn’t see a fetus as a human being, then I don’t think you have any cause to regard her as “scum of the Earth” if she decides to have an abortion as a form of birth control. 

Don't care how anyone else sees it and I'm not here to change anyone's mind.  This comment isn't made from a legal perspective. :shrug:

Though, it's puzzling....if you don't see it as a human being, I don't know how you'd see it as a form of birth control either.  Seems like an odd position to have but people twist themselves up in knots all the time over this subject.

Edited by The Commish

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9 hours ago, IC FBGCav said:

Tell me how you will deal with the baby's if roe v wade is over turned?

The baby's what?

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9 hours ago, shader said:

If the pro-life people think that killing a fetus is murder, that belief is really all that matters to them.

Whether they care about the fetus more than the baby, or whether they personally believe in political ideals that help poor people isn’t really relevant, is it?  

We all believe that the murder of 2-year old babies is wrong, right?  Yet we all have varying opinions on different issues, we have different levels of empathy, and different levels of love for humanity.

Im sure there are some pro-lifers that are total hypocrites.  But there are many that are not.

This is the point it SEEMS he's trying to make though failing miserably at doing so.  The argument is "you care only when it's in the mother's womb.  You force them to have a baby they don't want then don't provide the resources to support that baby when it's born and the mother turns it's back on it" or some variation of thereof.  

There's validity to that.  I bring it up all the time when this topic comes up.  IMO, it's even less humane than the abortion itself.  But the initial question of this thread was essentially, "ok, you've made the female have the baby, now what?"  The answer is you have to have the programs and social/emotional support mechanisms in place and adequately funded to support these unwanted lives.  It would be some combo of well funded government programs and NGOs that would step in and support.  You MAKE someone have  baby, it's on you if they dump it on society.  That really should be the end of this thread.

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I really don’t care about abortion. I was pro choice until I became a father. I think it’s great. I guess I’m pro life now but land more center-left in most other respects. 

I don’t think it’s a good reason to decide who you vote for. The people that decide things like budgets and foreign policy and solving our countries problems should have good ideas for that stuff, not simply be a protector of what comes down to religious ideals. 

Also, there are some inherent issues with classifying a fetus as a person and the rights that come along with that. If the fetus is born prematurely, should it be required that the hospital do everything in its power to save it? Right now there’s a cutoff that varies state to state (23-24 weeks), and I understand there is only so much space in a fetal nicu, so how do you navigate that? It’s more complex than simply outlawing abortions. 

You might also argue that a lot of people that have abortions have the means and capability to care for the child, but it’s inconvenient or an embarrassment to the family to have the baby. I mean, they have the means to get the abortion. Poor people may not have the means, or may already be on welfare and having more kids just adds to the benefits. So some of these “unwanted” babies may end up just fine or have decent opportunities given the chance to live, they just might not get the love they deserve. 

Theres also the “freakonomics” idea that crime plummeted in the ‘80s about 18 years after roe v wade, which the author theorizes were related. Less uncared for children meant less unwatched kids causing trouble. Hard to prove but there is some data to support it. 

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Just gotta change the culture where it's now acceptable in society to carry a baby to term them immediately give it away.  Pretty easy.

Edited by The Z Machine

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I've said it before I'll say it again. Prochoice doesn't mean more abortions. It means women should have the ability to make that choice. They should be able to do so legally and receive appropriate medical care when they do. But we should do more first to prevent unwanted pregnancies. More sex ed. More access to contraception. If you become pregnant we should make it easier for you to bring the child to term if you desire. More access to affordable prenatal care. Paid family leave. More resources for teen mothers to complete school while pregnant. More access to affordable day care. Better funding for WIC type programs. Universal head start. The list goes on. Now you tell me which is more prolife? Have the baby and then you are on your own or what I laid out? Then tell me why so many "prolifers" vote against all those things on the regular?

Edited by NCCommish
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3 hours ago, The Commish said:

This is the point it SEEMS he's trying to make though failing miserably at doing so.  The argument is "you care only when it's in the mother's womb.  You force them to have a baby they don't want then don't provide the resources to support that baby when it's born and the mother turns it's back on it" or some variation of thereof.  

There's validity to that.  I bring it up all the time when this topic comes up.  IMO, it's even less humane than the abortion itself.  But the initial question of this thread was essentially, "ok, you've made the female have the baby, now what?"  The answer is you have to have the programs and social/emotional support mechanisms in place and adequately funded to support these unwanted lives.  It would be some combo of well funded government programs and NGOs that would step in and support.  You MAKE someone have  baby, it's on you if they dump it on society.  That really should be the end of this thread.

There’s a lot of validity to the “now what” question.  I don’t view pro-life people as “making” someone have a baby.  That doesn’t seem logical to me.  We don’t “make” mother’s keep their infants alive, it’s just known that a decent human doesn’t kill them.

But could better programs come along to help unwanted new babies? Definitely. What about a low-cost adoption plan?  This world is full of people who’d love to adopt but can’t afford it.  Take those women who now can’t have abortions, put them on a list, and match them with people who want babies.  And do it at a minimal cost.  That’s a half-thought-out idea but there are solutions. 

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1 hour ago, NCCommish said:

I've said it before I'll say it again. Prochoice doesn't mean more abortions. It means women should have the ability to make that choice. They should be able to do so legally and receive appropriate medical care when they do. But we should do more first to prevent unwanted pregnancies. More sex ed. More access to contraception. If you become pregnant we should make it easier for you to bring the child to term if you desire. More access to affordable prenatal care. Paid family leave. More resources for teen mothers to complete school while pregnant. More access to affordable day care. Better funding for WIC type programs. Universal head start. The list goes on. Now you tell me which is more prolife? Have the baby and then you are on your own or what I laid out? Then tell me why so many "prolifers" vote against all those things on the regular?

I can’t tell you why political people have the politics they do.  There’s a lot of hypocrisy in people’s political ideals.  Pro-life advocates don’t bat an eye when the US drops drones and bombs and kills kids in other countries.  

But if you strip away all their hypocrisy and focus on the sole issue of abortion, they have  strong core beliefs, and they believe with every fiber of their being that they are on the right side of this issue. 

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13 hours ago, HellToupee said:

He’s a little riled up over today’s loss. Put him on tilt , real bad

This was a poor preformance by Cav yesterday. I didn't think I did anything wrong in the hockey thread, and these threads in the PSF are proving it. 

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3 hours ago, The Commish said:

Don't care how anyone else sees it and I'm not here to change anyone's mind.  

My response to you wasn’t a legal response. And it was similar to my response to @NCCommish in the other thread on this subject this morning. 

You think women who have abortions for birth control are scum. He thinks that pro-life people who oppose government programs for children are evil hypocrites. You guys are on supposedly opposite sides of this issue, yet you’re more alike than you think. You both demonize the other side and make snap judgments based on your own worldview rather than trying to consider theirs. It’s not a mystery as to why we’re in our current situation in this country. 

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15 minutes ago, shader said:

There’s a lot of validity to the “now what” question.  I don’t view pro-life people as “making” someone have a baby.  That doesn’t seem logical to me.  We don’t “make” mother’s keep their infants alive, it’s just known that a decent human doesn’t kill them.

I'm not talking about what the term "pro-life" means to individuals.  I am talking about the realities of the laws we have on the books and what the ultimate effect would be if those laws didn't exist.  If you outlawed abortions and created an environment where terminating the pregnancy is so penalized that there is no real "choice" to be made, then of course you are "making" them have the baby.  Rejecting this seems to be along the lines of "he still had a choice" when someone robs a bank because there was a gun to their head.  

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I'm pro choice. I think a live baby has more value than a fetus. I still think an abortion is a failure all around. I'll go to the all lengths to work with you on the literally dozens of ways the abortion rate can be reduced short of taking away the womans right to choose. 

Education, support services, child care, job training, extended paid child leave, tax credits to businesses with child friendly policies, universal access to contraception. All of these things could make differences. 

But we continually get backed into a corner with barbaric policies like Georgia and Alabama. How can we meet in the middle with people who wanty to scream down scared teemage girls at abortion clinics. How do you moderate people like that? 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

My response to you wasn’t a legal response. And it was similar to my response to @NCCommish in the other thread on this subject this morning. 

You think women who have abortions for birth control are scum. He thinks that pro-life people who oppose government programs for children are evil hypocrites. You guys are on supposedly opposite sides of this issue, yet you’re more alike than you think. You both demonize the other side and make snap judgments based on your own worldview rather than trying to consider theirs. It’s not a mystery as to why we’re in our current situation in this country. 

Dont even try to both sides this Tim. I call out people for supporting policies and politicians that hurt people. Your vote is tantamount to your support for those policies. If you didn't like those policies you could find another candidate or refuse to vote for one until there is an alternative.  Its called taking responsibility and having moral fortitude. I'm responsible for what the people I vote for do. The problem in this country is not enough people feel that way.

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21 minutes ago, shader said:

There’s a lot of validity to the “now what” question.  I don’t view pro-life people as “making” someone have a baby.  That doesn’t seem logical to me.  We don’t “make” mother’s keep their infants alive, it’s just known that a decent human doesn’t kill them.

But could better programs come along to help unwanted new babies? Definitely. What about a low-cost adoption plan?  This world is full of people who’d love to adopt but can’t afford it.  Take those women who now can’t have abortions, put them on a list, and match them with people who want babies.  And do it at a minimal cost.  That’s a half-thought-out idea but there are solutions. 

That's pretty good. What else you got? Let's flesh this thing out a bit. What about the poor single moms who elect not to adopt? Got anything for them?  

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

My response to you wasn’t a legal response. And it was similar to my response to @NCCommish in the other thread on this subject this morning. 

You think women who have abortions for birth control are scum. He thinks that pro-life people who oppose government programs for children are evil hypocrites. You guys are on supposedly opposite sides of this issue, yet you’re more alike than you think. You both demonize the other side and make snap judgments based on your own worldview rather than trying to consider theirs. It’s not a mystery as to why we’re in our current situation in this country. 

I agree with NCC on those who insist on people having babies but reject supporting the infrastructure that those rejected babies need once they are born. :shrug:  Why would you think we are on opposite sides of this issue.  It's highly likely that you have very little insight into my position at all.  If you can provide me a scenario where using abortion as a prefered method of birth control is acceptable, I'm all ears.  I have thought about this position for years and come up with nothing.  The closest thing I have come to is the scenario where someone takes all the precautions necessary (sans abstinence) and they still get pregnant.  My views of human life can't quite get me to a level of acceptance there either.

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1 minute ago, NCCommish said:

Dont even try to both sides this Tim. I call out people for supporting policies and politicians that hurt people. Your vote is tantamount to your support for those policies. If you didn't like those policies you could find another candidate or refuse to vote for one until there is an alternative.  Its called taking responsibility and having moral fortitude. I'm responsible for what the people I vote for do. The problem in this country is not enough people feel that way.

I’m not “both sidesing” anyone, though if I was I would note that my first response was to the Commish last night. 

I admire your goals; you can achieve them without demonizing those who disagree with you and regarding them as evil. 

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7 minutes ago, Jackstraw said:

I'm pro choice. I think a live baby has more value than a fetus. I still think an abortion is a failure all around. I'll go to the all lengths to work with you on the literally dozens of ways the abortion rate can be reduced short of taking away the womans right to choose. 

Education, support services, child care, job training, extended paid child leave, tax credits to businesses with child friendly policies, universal access to contraception. All of these things could make differences. 

But we continually get backed into a corner with barbaric policies like Georgia and Alabama. How can we meet in the middle with people who wanty to scream down scared teemage girls at abortion clinics. How do you moderate people like that? 

:goodposting:

 

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1 minute ago, The Commish said:

 The closest thing I have come to is the scenario where someone takes all the precautions necessary (sans abstinence) and they still get pregnant.  My views of human life can't quite get me to a level of acceptance there either.

That was exactly my situation. When I was 21, my girlfriend was 19, we used protection and she got pregnant anyhow. We were young and unprepared to have a baby. I offered to marry her and do whatever she wanted; she chose to have an abortion. I paid for it and drove her there. 

We were young and naive and perhaps we could have made better choices. Or not. But we were not scum of the Earth. Your characterization is simply wrong. And so is NCCommish’s for that matter. People are not evil over issues like this. Murder, rape, child molestation- those are acts of evil. Abortion isn’t. Not believing in big government programs isnt. It’s wrong to demonizd people like this. 

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I’m not “both sidesing” anyone, though if I was I would note that my first response was to the Commish last night. 

I admire your goals; you can achieve them without demonizing those who disagree with you and regarding them as evil. 

Leaving children in squalor in the richest country to ever exist is a sin. In our Judeo Christian tradition sin is evil. If you give power to people who do evil what are you Tim?

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5 minutes ago, NCCommish said:

Leaving children in squalor in the richest country to ever exist is a sin. In our Judeo Christian tradition sin is evil. If you give power to people who do evil what are you Tim?

If a devout Baptist in Alabama only votes Republican because he agrees with the GOP 90% of the time, yet gives tons of money to religious charities to help poor people in his community, and volunteers his own time to such efforts, is he a good person or an evil person in your eyes? 

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22 minutes ago, timschochet said:

That was exactly my situation. When I was 21, my girlfriend was 19, we used protection and she got pregnant anyhow. We were young and unprepared to have a baby. I offered to marry her and do whatever she wanted; she chose to have an abortion. I paid for it and drove her there. 

We were young and naive and perhaps we could have made better choices. Or not. But we were not scum of the Earth. Your characterization is simply wrong. And so is NCCommish’s for that matter. People are not evil over issues like this. Murder, rape, child molestation- those are acts of evil. Abortion isn’t. Not believing in big government programs isnt. It’s wrong to demonizd people like this. 

Sorry.....I can't get to that point.  I most likely never will.  It's completely avoidable.  I get why it's necessary to have the right to choose.  I even get why it's necessary in several situations to actually have an abortion.  It's completely unnecessary in cases like this.  It's where I draw my line :shrug:   I will also admit, that "scum of the earth" is probably not the best way to articulate my thinking.  That's more to the individual, not the decision/action and one decision/action does not a person make.  But I certainly pass judgment on the decision and it does slant my view of said person in terms of selfishness and how I perceive their value of life

Edited by The Commish

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8 minutes ago, timschochet said:

If a devout Baptist in Alabama only votes Republican because he agrees with the GOP 90% of the time, yet gives tons of money to religious charities to help poor people in his community, and volunteers his own time to such efforts, is he a good person or an evil person in your eyes? 

His support fuels the flood his donations are a bucket in that flood. At the end of the day the policies enacted with the power he gave are on him.

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2 minutes ago, NCCommish said:

His support fuels the flood his donations are a bucket in that flood. At the end of the day the policies enacted with the power he gave are on him.

I didn’t ask if you disagreed with him. I asked if he is evil. 

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4 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Sorry.....I can't get to that point.  I most likely never will.  It's completely avoidable.  I get why it's necessary to have the right to choose.  I even get why it's necessary in several situations to actually have an abortion.  It's completely unnecessary in cases like this.  It's where I draw my line :shrug:   I will also admit, that "scum of the earth" is probably not the best way to articulate my thinking.  That's more to the individual, not the decision/action and one decision/action does not a person make.  But I certainly pass judgment on the decision and it does slant my view of said person in terms of selfishness and how I perceive their value of life

Thank you. I understand your viewpoint. I object to the collective judgment you were passing. 

I haven’t seen my girlfriend in over 30 years. I hope she is well because she was a good person and I cared very much about her back then. If she has lived a good life since then I don’t think that one act should forever define her. Being involved in it certainly doesn’t define me. And that is my entire point. 

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5 hours ago, Snorkelson said:

 

Theres also the “freakonomics” idea that crime plummeted in the ‘80s about 18 years after roe v wade, which the author theorizes were related. Less uncared for children meant less unwatched kids causing trouble. Hard to prove but there is some data to support it. 

Well that is a good  reason to kill babies. 

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28 minutes ago, by_the_sea_wannabe said:

Well that is a good  reason to kill babies. 

I’m not arguing it is, just that there is data to support that.

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I really think if the impact of a pregnancy was truly on the male we'd see different positions. If it meant a man losing a job, or not finishing school or being economically disadvantaged policies would change overnight.

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16 minutes ago, NCCommish said:

I really think if the impact of a pregnancy was truly on the male we'd see different positions. If it meant a man losing a job, or not finishing school or being economically disadvantaged policies would change overnight.

if men gave birth there would be an abortion clinic next to every liquor store.

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On 5/12/2019 at 5:31 PM, IC FBGCav said:

I am pro life but not an idiot.  No one answers the question.  How do you take care of the child in real life.  Most pro lifers hate social programs.  

I say this.  All fetus live, now what?  Crickets.  Cause they don't really care.

I’m pro choice, but don’t see why pro life peeps are on the hook for determining a support system for unwanted pregnancies. 

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18 hours ago, NCCommish said:

I really think if the impact of a pregnancy was truly on the male we'd see different positions. If it meant a man losing a job, or not finishing school or being economically disadvantaged policies would change overnight.

Child support laws tend to place a significant economic burden on absent fathers.  Do men, as a group, oppose child support laws?  

Edit: On a related note, here's the forum's bi-monthly reminder that men and women hold roughly similar views on abortion.   

Edited by IvanKaramazov
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On 5/12/2019 at 7:27 PM, The Commish said:

This doesn't seem like all that complicated a path.  Substantially more funding would be needed to support organizations that deal with adoptions, orphans, foster families, right on down the line.

Full disclosure....I'm not full on "abortion is wrong in every single instance", but I'd never suggest it as a form of birth control and think people who use it as such are scum of the earth.  If that makes me "pro life" then you've got a response from at least one of those you are asking.

Have you known people that use abortion as a form of birth control?

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