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4 hours ago, Terminalxylem said:

I’m pro choice, but don’t see why pro life peeps are on the hook for determining a support system for unwanted pregnancies. 

If they are pushing for women to not have the ability to terminate the pregnancy, and the life of the child is of the upmost import, logically you would think they would support ways to increase the likelihood that this child is brought into this world and supported throughout.  On the hook for solely figuring that out might be harsh, but in favor of programs that help that along isn't unreasonable.  

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34 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Have you known people that use abortion as a form of birth control?

yes

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1 hour ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Child support laws tend to place a significant economic burden on absent fathers.  Do men, as a group, oppose child support laws?  

Edit: On a related note, here's the forum's bi-monthly reminder that men and women hold roughly similar views on abortion.   

Not that that addresses my supposition because pregnancy isn't on men. And I may have forgotten but I don't think I weighed in on support. However since I'm in now I would point to the Republicans blocking new federal regulations on child support that would have reduced the burden in some cases and was considered a good step toward actually increasing overall payment rates. Paul Ryan was part of that. 

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13 minutes ago, The Commish said:

yes

From your exchange with Tim, we dont think of this in the same way.  I was thinking more on the lines of people refusing other forms of birth control and just saying f-it I will just get an abortion if it comes to that.   Everyone i knew that ended up getting one were in a situation like Tim where they were careful, and took the decision very seriously and it weighed on them.  

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3 minutes ago, NCCommish said:

Not that that addresses my supposition because pregnancy isn't on men. 

But child support is, and a huge majority of men support laws requiring it.  The assumption that people vote for whatever makes things most convenient and advantageous for their gender without regard to moral considerations has no evidence to support it and quite a bit of evidence in opposition.

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2 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I was thinking more on the lines of people refusing other forms of birth control and just saying f-it I will just get an abortion if it comes to that.

These are generally the people I am talking about.  The people that aren't responsible enough to take precaution.  And yes, I know people that nonchalant about it.  As I said to Tim, scum of the earth is probably too strong as it puts one decision as what defines the person.  That's not fair.  But it disgusts me and saddens me to know there are people out there with such little regard for human life.

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2 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

But child support is, and a huge majority of men support laws requiring it.  The assumption that people vote for whatever makes things most convenient and advantageous for their gender without regard to moral considerations has no evidence to support it and quite a bit of evidence in opposition.

If a woman can terminate a pregnancy by choice without the man's consent then should a man be free from paying child support if he wants the abortion and she refuses?

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4 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

If a woman can terminate a pregnancy by choice without the man's consent then should a man be free from paying child support if he wants the abortion and she refuses?

No. 

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4 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

If a woman can terminate a pregnancy by choice without the man's consent then should a man be free from paying child support if he wants the abortion and she refuses?

No.  You fathered the child, so you have an obligation to help support it.  Abandoning it in utero isn't morally different to me than abandoning a kid when he's 2 or 7 or 13.

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1 minute ago, IvanKaramazov said:

No.  You fathered the child, so you have an obligation to help support it.  Abandoning it in utero isn't morally different to me than abandoning a kid when he's 2 or 7 or 13.

I don't disagree, for the record.  Just talking out the full scenario from both sides.

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Just now, Ramblin Wreck said:

Why?  

What Ivan wrote. Also abortion is a woman’s decision. 

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

What Ivan wrote. Also abortion is a woman’s decision. 

Why is it a woman's decision?  It was both of their decision to have the baby.  It's up to both of them to support the baby.  Why can only one of them decide to terminate the baby?

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Why is it a woman's decision?  It was both of their decision to have the baby.  It's up to both of them to support the baby.  Why can only one of them decide to terminate the baby?

Why are you asking these questions? You already know the answer: because it’s her body. That’s the whole legal and moral basis for a woman’s right to have an abortion in the first place.

Edited by timschochet

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19 minutes ago, The Commish said:

These are generally the people I am talking about.  The people that aren't responsible enough to take precaution.  And yes, I know people that nonchalant about it.  As I said to Tim, scum of the earth is probably too strong as it puts one decision as what defines the person.  That's not fair.  But it disgusts me and saddens me to know there are people out there with such little regard for human life.

I would agree, but like I said - I've never known anyone to take that flippant of an attitude towards the topic.  

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2 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I would agree, but like I said - I've never known anyone to take that flippant of an attitude towards the topic.  

Consider yourself lucky

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12 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Why are you asking these questions? You already know the answer: because it’s her body. That’s the whole legal and moral basis for a woman’s right to have an abortion in the first place.

I'm challenging the moral ruling. Once the woman chooses to engage in having the baby with a man, then I think the baby (or fetus) belongs to both parents.   It's not a mole she can go get removed just because.

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1 minute ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

I'm challenging the moral ruling. Once the woman chooses to engage in having the baby with a man, then I think the baby (or fetus) belongs to both parents.   It's not a mole she can go get removed just because.

You’re entitled to that opinion. Obviously many share it. I disagree, strongly object to some of your terms, and find your “mole” analogy to be offensive. 

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

You’re entitled to that opinion. Obviously many share it. I disagree, strongly object to some of your terms, and find your “mole” analogy to be offensive. 

LOL at finding removing a mole offensive.  Many find terminating the child offensive.   But the point (as you already know) is the child either belongs to both parents or it doesn't.  If both are responsible for support then both should have a decision in whether it terminates or not.

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8 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

I'm challenging the moral ruling. Once the woman chooses to engage in having the baby with a man, then I think the baby (or fetus) belongs to both parents.   It's not a mole she can go get removed just because.

Actually they dont always go in with the intention to have children. In real world use condoms are about 85% effective. In real world use the Pill is about 90% effective.  So even with the two in combination an unplanned pregnancy can happen.  

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1 minute ago, NCCommish said:

Actually they dont always go in with the intention to have children. In real world use condoms are about 85% effective. In real world use the Pill is about 90% effective.  So even with the two in combination an unplanned pregnancy can happen.  

Sure.  Both parties involved enter the sexual act with the same intention.  The accident occurs.  Why is it now the choice of solely one party what happens to the child?   Why does the woman get to terminate the pregnancy because of the accident but the man cannot terminate support because of the accident and he's screwed for 18 years?  If we're going to have the discussion Cav seemed to want to have then the choice should be equal since the act was equal.

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31 minutes ago, timschochet said:

You’re entitled to that opinion. Obviously many share it. I disagree, strongly object to some of your terms, and find your “mole” analogy to be offensive. 

Of course you do.

Give it a rest :lol:

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5 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Sure.  Both parties involved enter the sexual act with the same intention.  The accident occurs.  Why is it now the choice of solely one party what happens to the child?   Why does the woman get to terminate the pregnancy because of the accident but the man cannot terminate support because of the accident and he's screwed for 18 years?  If we're going to have the discussion Cav seemed to want to have then the choice should be equal since the act was equal.

If every male approached the situation mindful of the responsibilities of both parties that you point out there would be far fewer abortions IMO.

That said, there is no other practical way to legislate other than to put the decision in the hands of one person. The one person that makes the most sense is the mother, for biological and other reasons. Once she realizes she is pregnant her world changes immediately and drastically. A man's doesn't.

In a mature relationship many women are going to have a discussion with her doctor and those closest to her. But those discussions may be colored by emotions and value systems that may be different from hers, and some maybe even contrary to her very own interests.

Men should be educated that their responsibility begins prior to the sexual act and doesn't waver regardless of what happens in the span between 0-9 months. It may not be "fair" that men lose decision-making control during that timeframe. But this lack of fairness pales in comparison to the potential lack of fairness a woman may experience during the same timeframe and afterwards.

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2 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

Have you known people that use abortion as a form of birth control?

When you have an abortion because you aren't ready to have a child, or you want to focus on a career, or any other selfish reason, that's using abortion as a form of birth control.

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21 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

If every male approached the situation mindful of the responsibilities of both parties that you point out there would be far fewer abortions IMO.

That said, there is no other practical way to legislate other than to put the decision in the hands of one person. The one person that makes the most sense is the mother, for biological and other reasons. Once she realizes she is pregnant her world changes immediately and drastically. A man's doesn't.

In a mature relationship many women are going to have a discussion with her doctor and those closest to her. But those discussions may be colored by emotions and value systems that may be different from hers, and some maybe even contrary to her very own interests.

Men should be educated that their responsibility begins prior to the sexual act and doesn't waver regardless of what happens in the span between 0-9 months. It may not be "fair" that men lose decision-making control during that timeframe. But this lack of fairness pales in comparison to the potential lack of fairness a woman may experience during the same timeframe and afterwards.

Actually, women should be educated that their responsibility begins prior to the sexual act as well.   Why is that education only needed for one partner, in your opinion?

And I totally disagree with the first bolded part.  A man's world changes immediately and drastically the second he gets a woman pregnant.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Actually, women should be educated that their responsibility begins prior to the sexual act as well.   Why is that education only needed for one partner, in your opinion?

And I totally disagree with the first bolded part.  A man's world changes immediately and drastically the second he gets a woman pregnant.

It's pretty obvious both parties need to be educated.

I'm not seeing a lot of solutions-oriented thinking on your part so will just depart the conversation at this point. Carry on.

Edited by PhantomJB
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17 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

It's pretty obvious both parties need to be educated.

I'm not seeing a lot of solutions-oriented thinking on your part so will just depart the conversation at this point. Carry on.

:lmao:  My solution is both parties should be involved in terminating a child.  And if one party wants to keep the child they are responsible for the child.   What, exactly, were your solutions other than saying the man's life doesn't change but the woman's does and men need to be educated that their responsibility starts before having sex (but didn't state women did).  Where is your solutions-oriented thinking?

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1 hour ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

:lmao:  My solution is both parties should be involved in terminating a child.  And if one party wants to keep the child they are responsible for the child.   What, exactly, were your solutions other than saying the man's life doesn't change but the woman's does and men need to be educated that their responsibility starts before having sex (but didn't state women did).  Where is your solutions-oriented thinking?

But only one party can carry the child. And it isn't the man. So no the man doesn't get the right to demand his partner be a broodmare because he says so.

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5 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

If they are pushing for women to not have the ability to terminate the pregnancy, and the life of the child is of the upmost import, logically you would think they would support ways to increase the likelihood that this child is brought into this world and supported throughout.  On the hook for solely figuring that out might be harsh, but in favor of programs that help that along isn't unreasonable.  

I understand the train of thought, but disagree with the concept. It’s like saying people who support amnesty for illegal aliens should provide them housing/jobs/etc.

It’s not up to those who take a side on an issue to come up with solutions for every downstream problem created by their stance. 

 

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5 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

From your exchange with Tim, we dont think of this in the same way.  I was thinking more on the lines of people refusing other forms of birth control and just saying f-it I will just get an abortion if it comes to that.   Everyone i knew that ended up getting one were in a situation like Tim where they were careful, and took the decision very seriously and it weighed on them.  

Yep, the whole idea that women are aborting willy-nilly is absurd. It’s an emotionally charged decision and not exactly convenient.

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On 5/12/2019 at 10:24 PM, [scooter] said:

If just one baby grows up to be a successful human being, it will have been worth it.

I dont understand this.  One baby out of say 10 is successful, what about the other 9?  that is the point of the OP?  If honest the GOP is looking to take down social benefits as well.  How many unwanted kids do we want to have in the system? 

Look I dont think anyone is promoting late term abortions or used as a form of birth control. 

 

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2 hours ago, NCCommish said:

But only one party can carry the child. And it isn't the man. So no the man doesn't get the right to demand his partner be a broodmare because he says so.

Fair enough.  Then on the other hand if the man wants to terminate and woman decides to keep it then woman should not force the man to be a bank for her decision.  Let's be consistent with where we apply education and accountability.

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47 minutes ago, Terminalxylem said:

In what context have you known casual aborters?

What do you mean?  Who are they in relation to me?  I have a few family members, plus coming across many at a co-op I used to volunteer at.

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8 minutes ago, The Commish said:

What do you mean?  Who are they in relation to me?  I have a few family members, plus coming across many at a co-op I used to volunteer at.

So these people refused to use other forms of birth control, in favor of abortion in the event pregnancy occurred?

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4 minutes ago, Terminalxylem said:

So these people refused to use other forms of birth control, in favor of abortion in the event pregnancy occurred?

Refused?  Can't say....I don't even know how that would work, but they certainly chose not to use it, and most of them unapologetic about it.  These people exist.  I don't know what to tell you guys :shrug: 

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3 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Refused?  Can't say....I don't even know how that would work, but they certainly chose not to use it, and most of them unapologetic about it.  These people exist.  I don't know what to tell you guys :shrug: 

I know some women who've had abortions. I've been lucky I guess as I've never met anyone whose contraceptive strategy was "I'll just get an abortion". Everyone I've known wasn't really happy about it. Mostly they felt shame and were embarrassed no matter how it happened. Plus having accompanied a couple of friends, who would have otherwise been alone, I can't see how anyone would want to go through that more than once. It is not a fun recovery. In fact there is nothing about it that you would think anyone would want to do twice. 

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Just now, NCCommish said:

I know some women who've had abortions. I've been lucky I guess as I've never met anyone whose contraceptive strategy was "I'll just get an abortion". Everyone I've known wasn't really happy about it. Mostly they felt shame and were embarrassed no matter how it happened. Plus having accompanied a couple of friends, who would have otherwise been alone, I can't see how anyone would want to go through that more than once. It is not a fun recovery. In fact there is nothing about it that you would think anyone would want to do twice. 

I'm with you.  It's baffling to me even after seeing it with my own eyes.  I don't know the numbers behind it.  They don't really matter to me...one's too many IMO.  But I have seen it at every charity stop I've made, in three different states, north to south.  That said, I've only ever seen three repeat visitors.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The Commish said:

I'm with you.  It's baffling to me even after seeing it with my own eyes.  I don't know the numbers behind it.  They don't really matter to me...one's too many IMO.  But I have seen it at every charity stop I've made, in three different states, north to south.  That said, I've only ever seen three repeat visitors.

Well I checked with the CDC. About 56% of abortions in the last 10 years have been for women who have never had an abortion. About  44% had 1 or more. An added data point about 58% of women getting an abortion had 1 or more prior live births in that span. 

Now I said about because I rounded and added together categories. But those numbers are roughly correct. I'm surprised by the number of those who were more than once more than the number who already had at least one child.

Edited by NCCommish

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2 hours ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Fair enough.  Then on the other hand if the man wants to terminate and woman decides to keep it then woman should not force the man to be a bank for her decision.  Let's be consistent with where we apply education and accountability.

No. It doesn't work that way. It's not going to be a fair deal, because the man and woman are not equal partners. The woman has to bear the child, therefore she gets 100% of the right to decide whether or not to have an abortion. The man gets no say whatsoever unless the woman wants him to have a say. And if the woman has the child, the man is responsible for child care. What the man wants or doesn't want is irrelevant.

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7 minutes ago, NCCommish said:

Well I checked with the CDC. About 56% of abortions in the last 10 years have been for women who have never had an abortion. About  44% had 1 or more. An added data point about 58% of women getting an abortion had 1 or more prior live births in that span. 

Now I said about because I rounded and added together categories. But those numbers are roughly correct. I'm surprised by the number of those who were more than once more than the number who already had at least one child.

I want to be clear.  I am NOT saying this is "common".  I don't really know if it is or not.  I don't really care if it is or not.  One is too many IMO.  I didn't mean to say anything other than how I feel about the decision to choose this route as a form of birth control.  If it's 1 or 10,000, it doesn't change my opinion on that sort of decision making.

I guess it stands to reason, I am not all that surprised at how many have come back multiple times.  And yes, I acknowledge that assumption is driven by my anecdotal experience.  Maybe I need to seek out different volunteer opportunities :oldunsure: 

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13 minutes ago, timschochet said:

No. It doesn't work that way. It's not going to be a fair deal, because the man and woman are not equal partners. The woman has to bear the child, therefore she gets 100% of the right to decide whether or not to have an abortion. The man gets no say whatsoever unless the woman wants him to have a say. And if the woman has the child, the man is responsible for child care. What the man wants or doesn't want is irrelevant.

That’s pretty stupid in a world of equality.  But your stuck in your antiquated mindset so we are done here.  Hopefully we see parenting more equally moving forward. 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, timschochet said:

No. It doesn't work that way. It's not going to be a fair deal, because the man and woman are not equal partners. The woman has to bear the child, therefore she gets 100% of the right to decide whether or not to have an abortion. The man gets no say whatsoever unless the woman wants him to have a say. And if the woman has the child, the man is responsible for child care. What the man wants or doesn't want is irrelevant.

So if the woman has the child she is not responsible in any way for child care? WOW

Edited by John Blutarsky

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3 hours ago, Terminalxylem said:
9 hours ago, The Commish said:

Consider yourself lucky

In what context have you known casual aborters?

Depends on the context.  I have known multiple women who had abortions in their late teens due to unprotected sex and they made difficult decisions.  With these women it was a one time thing and they made the appropriate adjustments in their life to not let this happen again. If that's using it as birth control (I don't view it that way) then it is likely relatively common.  I have also know one truly despicable person that did use it as a form of birth control in every sense of the word, but as I alluded too that person was really an awful human being all the way around.

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2 hours ago, John Blutarsky said:

So if the woman has the child she is not responsible in any way for child care? WOW

That isn't what he meant and I'm sure you know that. He meant he is responsible for supporting the child. We've been talking about that for a while now. The context is pretty apparent. 

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1 minute ago, NCCommish said:

That isn't what he meant and I'm sure you know that. He meant he is responsible for supporting the child. We've been talking about that for a while now. The context is pretty apparent. 

It’s Tim. His context is never apparent.

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38 minutes ago, John Blutarsky said:

It’s Tim. His context is never apparent.

Yeah it is and you knew it at the time. 

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Just now, timschochet said:

Yeah it is and you knew it at the time. 

No, what you wrote was extremely sexist. 

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11 hours ago, shader said:

When you have an abortion because you aren't ready to have a child, or you want to focus on a career, or any other selfish reason, that's using abortion as a form of birth control.

Yeah, I definitely don't see it that way.   If people realize they aren't ready and are using the pill/condoms/etc , they happen to still get pregnant and decide to have an abortion I don't that as using it as a form of birth control.  It's also taking into account the future of the possible child, so it's not entirely selfish either.  

I don't agree with you, but I get where The Commish is coming from - if there are people that can't be bothered with birth control and are using abortions as the first line of birth control.  I have never met anybody that is like that.  The few women I have known that have chosen to go this route for them it's been a hard, emotional decision.  

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So here's an interesting question if a fertilized egg is a person aren't we keeping thousands of people hostage all over this country? There are thousands of fertilized eggs in storage. In Alabama under their law a fertilized egg is a person. So when you do IVF and they insert several fertilized eggs most of which dont take, how many life sentences does the doctor get?

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