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John Wick And Gun Violence - Thoughts On This Article? - PF Edition (1 Viewer)

Thoughts On The Article?

  • Totally Agree

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Somewhat Agree

    Votes: 3 25.0%
  • On The Fence

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Somewhat Disagree

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Totally Disagree

    Votes: 7 58.3%

  • Total voters
    12

Joe Bryant

Guide
Staff member
I have only seen clips. So I'm not qualified to give much of an opinion. But I get the general idea of John Wick and I thought this article was interesting. 

What do you think?  I asked in the FFA but I thought I'd also ask here as I know guns are a frequent topic. 

I Couldn't Bring Myself to Enjoy John Wick: Chapter 3

Keanu Reeves stars in another brilliantly choreographed action film. But it was hard to stomach days after another school shooting in my hometown.

As I rewatched John Wick and John Wick: Chapter 2 before seeing the third installment of the Keanu Reeves franchise last week, I couldn’t get this interview between CNN’s Brooke Baldwin and a 6th grade survivor of the STEM school shooting in Colorado out of my head. She’s in tears as this rosy-cheeked boy explains how he was terrified and “ready to go down fighting if he was going to go down.”

The incident to which he refers happened on May 7, when two gunman entered a Highlands Ranch school 20 minutes from where I grew up, killed one student and wounded eight others. With the images and interviews fresh on my mind, it was hard to focus on Reeves walking into a crowded club in John Wick: Chapter 2,gunning down dozens of people. I had to look away, and I dreaded seeing the third film on that Thursday evening.

Club Shootout Scene from the 2nd Movie

Because I had seen both John Wick films, I was familiar with the ultra-violent revenge fantasy. I knew it had been accused of Hollywood gun pornography, yet I still accepted it as it was: entertainment—nothing more than a popcorn action film. But, in this viewing with the very real-life effects of gun violence fresh on my mind, it was impossible to treat this film as escapism.

This isn't my won't someone think of the children moment, but a reckoning with my own gut reaction to movie violence in a world that's more ####ed up than the fantasy one we create.

I vividly remember the first time my school was put on lockdown. I was a 9-year-old third grader in an elementary school down the road from Columbine High School, and the idea of a shooting where we go to class made no sense to me. I was confused, and didn’t understand why my mom was crying when she picked up my sister and me from school. Since then, there have been eight mass shootings in Colorado, where I lived for 25 years. One of these was the Aurora Theater shooting in 2012—again, just down the road from my parents’ house. I was in California for an internship at the time, but when I eventually saw The Dark Knight Rises in the theater, it was a chilling experience.

So, when I sat down in the theater last Thursday to see John Wick: Chapter 3, I was uncomfortable, unprepared, and filled with dread. The film is exactly what anyone who’s seen the first two should expect. It’s two hours of action. It’s non-stop violence. And when it reaches the climactic final battle, Ian McShane’s Winston asks Wick what he needs.

“Guns, lots of guns,” Wick responds.

The film concludes with another mass shootout and dozens of headshots—deaths by pistols, and shotguns, and assault rifles. Why, suddenly, after enjoying Hollywood violence all these years could I not take it anymore?

It’s partly because the horror of the STEM shooting was still so fresh, but it’s not just that John Wick: Chapter 3 is poorly timed to a recent shooting.

This year alone there have been eight school shootings at high school or college campuses and 116 mass shootings in total. The horrifying truth is that in America, John Wick could come out any week of the year and still happen close to a recent mass shooting. I've finally reached the point where I can no longer disassociate romanticized depictions of vengeance with what is happening in schools and churches across America—or down the street from where I grew up.

I’m not saying the violence in John Wick: Chapter 3 is problematic or responsible for mass shootings in our country, nor am I suggesting anyone should feel bad about enjoying this movie or others like it. Revenge fantasies are entertainment, and they've been part of Hollywood for decades. 

But for me, it's becoming harder to come to terms with on-screen gun violence in a country defined by real-life tragedies. That’s specifically the case with a movie like John Wick, where the overall plot involves a violent revenge fantasy. Sure, John Wick is a character who, despite being a hardened killer, is a reformed wannabe pacifist in search of a peaceful life. But we're never exposed to this emotional struggle or his battle with the violent life he's forced to lead. For the most part, John Wick just silently and effectively kills in order to achieve the tranquil life of which he dreams.The movie exists solely for the action and violence. It has nothing to say beyond the excellently choreographed fight scenes. It doesn’t bother to wrestle with the effects—physically or psychologically—of gun violence.

There are, of course, countless violent movies that choose to ignore the emotional fallout of gun violence. John McClane seems to delight in killing terrorists in Die Hard, but his violence serves a purpose: to rescue scores of people from their captors. The carnage in John Wick exists as a form of pornography—it's violence for the sake of violence.

I found myself wondering how I could enjoy something like the excellent fifth episode of Barry Season Two, but not the mindless entertainment of John Wick. That’s because Barry forces us to confront—on a deeper level—violence, whereas John Wick makes it look cool.

There will likely be a John Wick: Chapter 4, not to mention a spate of other revenge movies. Maybe it’s time for this type of cinema to evolve, to wrestle with what’s happening in our country in an artistic way beyond simply seeing how many people one guy can kill in a brutal three-movie rampage. A number of exceptional movies and TV shows already do. Why not John Wick? 

We can still have these beautifully choreographed fight scenes. We can still have action. We can even still have guns, but perhaps we challenge these stories to say and do more. John Wick: Chapter 3 was a well-made movie—a great movie by critical standards that will haul in major box-office receipts—but perhaps those fight scenes on the backs of motorcycles or shootouts in buildings and courtyards could be consequential and meaningful.

The ultimate tragedy in all of this is that mass shootings—including those inside America's schools—will keep happening. If film is no longer where we go to escape these horrors, it could be a place where even our blockbusters strive to better understand it.

MATT MILLER Culture EditorMatt is the Culture Editor at Esquire where he covers music, movies, books, and TV—with an emphasis on all things Star Wars, Marvel, and Game of Thrones.

 
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I’ve never bought into this argument. I want reasonable gun control. I hate gun violence in real life. 

But I love violence, including gun violence, in my entertainment. I like watching people kill other people on screen. I see no contradiction. 

 
Well, I can understand why some people would be turned off by gun violence in movies. That doesn't mean that there's any kind of correlation between movie violence and real life violence.

"I can't watch movies about X because I have personally experienced X" is not a new concept.

 
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I look at Matrix a little differently now. I always thought it was an interesting nouveau manichean/gnosticism graft, but for some time now I see the weird imperviousness to gun violence as disturbing. Not sure why, but I think it's because movies are supposed to be escapism or intellectual exercises but when the real world caves in it becomes a problem. And it's not really about school shootings, it's events like the 9/11/01 attacks, the Bataclan and a wide variety of attacks that have taken place really since 2001. The western world is just an ugly place on an ideological and violent level not seen since the 40s.

 
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I’ve never bought into this argument. I want reasonable gun control. I hate gun violence in real life. 

But I love violence, including gun violence, in my entertainment. I like watching people kill other people on screen. I see no contradiction. 
I agree with the bolded. The argument that the US ranks so high in gun deaths is because of violent movies and videos games doesn't hold water with me. Other countries have these movies and video games without anywhere near the same per capital gun death numbers of the US. The difference is they can regulate guns and we can't. 

I used to find enjoyment is gun violence in movies. Tombstone was one of my favorites. But now that the news I see today looks like what news would be like in 19th century Tombstone, AZ, I don't enjoy watching it anymore. But I'll still watch Star Wars movies without a problem. Maybe if kids were dying in schools from light sabers and laser guns, then I'd be turned off to Star Wars too.  

 
To try in this day and age to correllate gun violence in real life with that of movies - not exactly news and hasn't it been debunked already more than once?

 
It's an easy concept for sane people to decide whether they are or aren't effected by what they see in video games or movies. But we don't know how it effects people on that are suffering from mental illness. The Slenderman stabbing is an extreme example. 

 
I'm more concerned about first-person-shooter video games -- and even then I'm not so concerned that I think games should be banned.

 
Well given his history I understand. But I've seen and participated in real gun violence. For me the movies sanitize it so much that it isn't real enough to bother me. 

I also don't see any evidence of correlation between movies, video games, etc. and gun violence in America. What happens here almost daily is uniquely American but the movies, video games aren't. 

 
I’ve never bought into this argument. I want reasonable gun control. I hate gun violence in real life. 

But I love violence, including gun violence, in my entertainment. I like watching people kill other people on screen. I see no contradiction. 
:hifive:

 
Well, I can understand why some people would be turned off by gun violence in movies. That doesn't mean that there's any kind of correlation between movie violence and real life violence.

"I can't watch moves about X because I have personally experienced X" is not a new concept.
Sort of what i asked NCCommish. How far away from it must one be for us to say we haven't experienced gun violence? 

 
I’ve never bought into this argument. I want reasonable gun control. I hate gun violence in real life. 

But I love violence, including gun violence, in my entertainment. I like watching people kill other people on screen. I see no contradiction. 
I have to be honest and say I don't understand this at all.

To hate something in real life but love seeing it for entertainment. 

Can you elaborate in detail?

Is it sort of the horror movie thing? 

 
I have to be honest and say I don't understand this at all.

To hate something in real life but love seeing it for entertainment. 

Can you elaborate in detail?

Is it sort of the horror movie thing? 
Sure. I like cop shows. I don’t want to be a cop. I like war movies. I don’t want to fight in a war. BUT...

As much as I like cop shows and war movies I don’t like watching stuff that’s too real, if that makes any sense. Saving Private Ryan was not one of my favorite movies; give me Inglorious Basterds or The Great Escape, or the Dirty Dozen. Entertainment is escapism for me; I want to be scared or thrilled or laugh or cry, but I don’t want it to be real. It’s a story. 

Hope that makes sense. 

 
Isn't this becoming all our histories? If it's not, shouldn't it be?
Well Joe I haven't been personally affected by school shootings in the way the author has. So certainly his feelings and remembrances are far different than mine. No matter how much i dislike our schools being warzones because we have an unhealthy relationship with guns.

 
Between this and the FFA version, the thing I take from this poll is I think as long as most people seem to think like they do, we're never changing guns in this country. 

 
Well Joe I haven't been personally affected by school shootings in the way the author has. So certainly his feelings and remembrances are far different than mine. No matter how much i dislike our schools being warzones because we have an unhealthy relationship with guns.
Could it be that we also have an unhealthy relationship with violent media?

 
Could it be that we also have an unhealthy relationship with violent media?
The main difference between us and all the other countries that also have violent media but don't have daily mass shootings is that we have completely abandoned common sense gun control so gun manufacturers can sell more guns. We have more guns than we have people. We own almost 50% of all the guns held in private hands in the world.

 
The main difference between us and all the other countries that also have violent media but don't have daily mass shootings is that we have completely abandoned common sense gun control so gun manufacturers can sell more guns. We have more guns than we have people. We own almost 50% of all the guns held in private hands in the world.
Very true but we also obsess over guns in ways other counties don’t- which is part of the reason we have resisted gun reforms. 

 
I agree with the bolded. The argument that the US ranks so high in gun deaths is because of violent movies and videos games doesn't hold water with me. Other countries have these movies and video games without anywhere near the same per capital gun death numbers of the US. The difference is they can regulate guns and we can't. 

I used to find enjoyment is gun violence in movies. Tombstone was one of my favorites. But now that the news I see today looks like what news would be like in 19th century Tombstone, AZ, I don't enjoy watching it anymore. But I'll still watch Star Wars movies without a problem. Maybe if kids were dying in schools from light sabers and laser guns, then I'd be turned off to Star Wars too.  
I never cared for violent movies that there seems to be a million of like Saw, Seven, Friday the 13th etc.  Goodfellas was one of my favorites though. To your point, I don't watch anything remotely violent anymore because it sickens me what is going on in this country. I mean both of my kid's schools were on lock down THIS MONTH because of the threat of gun violence.  Multiple times this school year. It's so screwed up. 

 
The main difference between us and all the other countries that also have violent media but don't have daily mass shootings is that we have completely abandoned common sense gun control so gun manufacturers can sell more guns. We have more guns than we have people. We own almost 50% of all the guns held in private hands in the world.
I've brought this up before. What does owning more guns have to do with the issue? People want to complain that one person owns 12 guns. We have seen one mass shooting where the shooter had an arsenal. Otherwise, every other shooter had on average 1-2 guns. You can't operate 10 guns at one time. It only takes one gun to carry out these shootings.

I've been looking for data on guns per capita in this country over the last few decades but can't find anything. I would be curious to know if we've always been the leader or if this is a somewhat recent change? 

 
I've brought this up before. What does owning more guns have to do with the issue? People want to complain that one person owns 12 guns. We have seen one mass shooting where the shooter had an arsenal. Otherwise, every other shooter had on average 1-2 guns. You can't operate 10 guns at one time. It only takes one gun to carry out these shootings.

I've been looking for data on guns per capita in this country over the last few decades but can't find anything. I would be curious to know if we've always been the leader or if this is a somewhat recent change? 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/1Bw04DdL3kDu5e9l4fJ06nX0Iq8=/1484x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/5X2ZKNMFTE2QDNCZDDGRXGZTJA.png

 
Between this and the FFA version, the thing I take from this poll is I think as long as most people seem to think like they do, we're never changing guns in this country. 
If “changing guns” means what I think you mean, I don’t want to “change guns”. 

I want background checks for every sale and transfer so that bad guys and crazies have a more difficult time getting them. I wouldn’t mind having a registry because I think it would help law enforcement. And certain weapons are too dangerous for most private citizens to own, IMO. 

But none of these ideas would change the nature of our society and I don’t want to. Most gun owners are responsible citizens and they’re no threat to me. I just want to stop the small number who are. 

 
I've brought this up before. What does owning more guns have to do with the issue? People want to complain that one person owns 12 guns. We have seen one mass shooting where the shooter had an arsenal. Otherwise, every other shooter had on average 1-2 guns. You can't operate 10 guns at one time. It only takes one gun to carry out these shootings.

I've been looking for data on guns per capita in this country over the last few decades but can't find anything. I would be curious to know if we've always been the leader or if this is a somewhat recent change? 
The bolded is inaccurate. Check out the gun section of this link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/mass-shootings-in-america/?utm_term=.e3eb5066a332

Do you think widespread availability of guns doesn't contribute to mass shootings?

 
I've brought this up before. What does owning more guns have to do with the issue? People want to complain that one person owns 12 guns. We have seen one mass shooting where the shooter had an arsenal. Otherwise, every other shooter had on average 1-2 guns. You can't operate 10 guns at one time. It only takes one gun to carry out these shootings.

I've been looking for data on guns per capita in this country over the last few decades but can't find anything. I would be curious to know if we've always been the leader or if this is a somewhat recent change? 
We have the same movies, music, video games, etc as other countries but way more gun violence. We have more gun violence by a large margin. We can’t figure out why. 

We have more guns in the hands of the public by a large margin than other countries. 

One might see this as correlation. 

I looked to see if there was any data on mental health issues per capita.

Interesting maps of different mental issues by country

We seem to have a higher number of people with anxiety, depression, and schizophrenia. Couple that with violent culture and easy access to weapons and maybe we are on to something. 

 
The bolded is inaccurate. Check out the gun section of this link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/mass-shootings-in-america/?utm_term=.e3eb5066a332

Do you think widespread availability of guns doesn't contribute to mass shootings?
I checked out the gun section of the link. It only states 

Shooters often carried more than one weapon; one was found with 24
I said that most mass shooters had 1-2 guns. I should have stated that most mass shooters used 1-2 guns carry out their shootings. We have two hands. Two handguns is the only way you are going to be able to effectively use those hands. Which happens to be something you see in movies. I never saw anything in hunters safety courses or any literature about effectively using two handguns at the same time. Police don't use this tactic either. Only in the movies. My comment was in regards to peoples concerns around a one person owning 12 guns. 

I think guns are a contributing factor to mass shootings. It has to be since it's the tool being used. I think using the term "widespread availability" makes it sound as though you can get one out of a gumball machine or the gun truck drives around neighborhoods and hands them out to kids. 

 
2Squirrels1Nut said:
I never cared for violent movies that there seems to be a million of like Saw, Seven, Friday the 13th etc.  Goodfellas was one of my favorites though. To your point, I don't watch anything remotely violent anymore because it sickens me what is going on in this country. I mean both of my kid's schools were on lock down THIS MONTH because of the threat of gun violence.  Multiple times this school year. It's so screwed up. 
Just got a text from school about another incident.  Cops have been called.

All of this not because people want to go deer, duck hunting etc.,but because they believe it is their God given right to have weapons of war. :(

 
Just got a text from school about another incident.  Cops have been called.

All of this not because people want to go deer, duck hunting etc.,but because they believe it is their God given right to have weapons of war. :(
First off, it's not God that gave the right. It was the Constitution. The same Constitution that gave us all our other rights. 

Second, weapons of war?

 
KCitons said:
I checked out the gun section of the link. It only states 

I said that most mass shooters had 1-2 guns. I should have stated that most mass shooters used 1-2 guns carry out their shootings. We have two hands. Two handguns is the only way you are going to be able to effectively use those hands. Which happens to be something you see in movies. I never saw anything in hunters safety courses or any literature about effectively using two handguns at the same time. Police don't use this tactic either. Only in the movies. My comment was in regards to peoples concerns around a one person owning 12 guns. 

I think guns are a contributing factor to mass shootings. It has to be since it's the tool being used. I think using the term "widespread availability" makes it sound as though you can get one out of a gumball machine or the gun truck drives around neighborhoods and hands them out to kids. 
Hover over the weapons in the pictogram. Lot's had more than 2 weapons, not "every other shooter had an average of 1-2 guns" as you originally stated. Agree that people can only shoot one or two at a time.

As far as "widespread availability", no one said anything akin to your examples. But we certainly can do a better job with background checks, especially when the firearms are purchased from a gun show or private party.

 
Hover over the weapons in the pictogram. Lot's had more than 2 weapons, not "every other shooter had an average of 1-2 guns" as you originally stated. Agree that people can only shoot one or two at a time.

As far as "widespread availability", no one said anything akin to your examples. But we certainly can do a better job with background checks, especially when the firearms are purchased from a gun show or private party.
Which is why I support universal background checks for all gun sales. There are 11 states that already require this. There are probably hundreds of cities and counties that have background checks as well. People just want a federally mandated check. But that's not how the 2nd Amendment is working. Let the states decide what's best for their people.

 
Between this and the FFA version, the thing I take from this poll is I think as long as most people seem to think like they do, we're never changing guns in this country. 
This opinion only makes sense if you believe that violence in movies and video games is a substantial cause of real life violence.  Do you believe that?

 
This opinion only makes sense if you believe that violence in movies and video games is a substantial cause of real life violence.  Do you believe that?
Why would you think that? I'm not saying movie violence necessarily causes real violence.

I'm saying when our attitude as society is one of glorifying gratuitous gun murder and we see that as "entertainment", I don't see anything changing with regard to what's going to happen with guns in real life. 

And very much hoping I'm wrong. 

 
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Some posters in the other thread made a great point. They said they felt movies like John Wick were like the old Martial Arts movies with over the top fighting.

I totally can see that point. That's exactly the author's point. 

Do you think we'd feel the same way about loving Kung Fu movies if it was a regular occurrence where a guy went into a school and killed kids with Kung Fu?

 

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