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El Floppo

Official 2019 Women's World Cup thread

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A couple people have asked in the two soccer threads about this... and it seems like this event has fans beyond the usual soccer crowd, so this is for you.

 

Starts friday with France vs S Korea.

 

US opens the campaign against Thailand (it's going to be a blood bath) on Tuesday. with games against Chile sunday 6/16) (I know nussing)  and Sweden 6/20 (historically very good) 

 

 

c'mon you US women!

 

Triple A drinking guide

Edited by El Floppo
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Also, be prepared during the next month to be repeatedly sucked into ignorant discussions as to whether the US women could beat the men.   :oldschoolrolleyes:

 

 

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Thanks Flop!  I know I'm in the minority, but I root harder for the USWNT than I do the mens' team. 

US team favored to win it all, which isn't surprising.  This team is loaded.  France, Germany and England follow the US team in the odds. 

Canada at 28/1 seems like a nice risk reward play.  Christine Sinclair is a living legend.

:towelwave:

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1 minute ago, General Malaise said:

 

Canada at 28/1 seems like a nice risk reward play. 

... go on - i love a live 'dog

weren't they top shelf a few back? recall them having some slobberknockers with our lasses ... or am i thinking hockey?

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12 minutes ago, General Malaise said:

Thanks Flop!  I know I'm in the minority, but I root harder for the USWNT than I do the mens' team. 

US team favored to win it all, which isn't surprising.  This team is loaded.  France, Germany and England follow the US team in the odds. 

Canada at 28/1 seems like a nice risk reward play.  Christine Sinclair is a living legend.

:towelwave:

I don't think you're in the minority at all for most US non-soccer specific fans.

We like winners- and the women are most definitely winners relative to the rest of the world for soccer.

this is being touted as the most level field yet... there are some teams like thailand that will be getting blown out, but a lot more teams fighting for the top spot than ever.

US with Title 9 grew the sport way beyond the rest of the world- but a lot of the rest of the world has been catching up, adding  pro women's teams onto their already existing men's & youth academy teams. areas with the money and infrastructure in place- europe in particular, but south america too, have really improved.

 

eta ... fwiw- I've been hearing a bit of chatter about the aussies.

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I haven't watched much women's soccer--do they flop as much as the men?  My recollection is that they actually appear to play a tougher game with less of the BS that plagues the men's game.

Very surprised to see Canada's women's team with somewhat of a real chance.  Canada's men's team isn't even in the top 100 worldwide.  :bag: 

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7 minutes ago, otb_lifer said:

... go on - i love a live 'dog

weren't they top shelf a few back? recall them having some slobberknockers with our lasses ... or am i thinking hockey?

They're good and I think they should advance from Group E, which has a very strong Netherlands team and then beatable opponents in New Zealand and Cameroon.  Sinclair is one of the best players in history, but she's on the wrong side of 35 now as is one of their best midfielders Diana Matheson (who also might not be 100% for this).  But, they've got some younger players who had success for their youth teams over recent years.  

You might have further interest in players like Adriana Leon, Julia Grosso or Jenna Hellstrom. :whistle:

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11 minutes ago, El Floppo said:

I don't think you're in the minority at all for most US non-soccer specific fans.

We like winners- and the women are most definitely winners relative to the rest of the world for soccer.

this is being touted as the most level field yet... there are some teams like thailand that will be getting blown out, but a lot more teams fighting for the top spot than ever.

US with Title 9 grew the sport way beyond the rest of the world- but a lot of the rest of the world has been catching up, adding  pro women's teams onto their already existing men's & youth academy teams. areas with the money and infrastructure in place- europe in particular, but south america too, have really improved.

 

eta ... fwiw- I've been hearing a bit of chatter about the aussies.

Yeah, Sam Kerr is phenomenal.  Aussies 12/1 to win it all.

I do like winners. :bag:

Also women.  

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2 minutes ago, chet said:

I haven't watched much women's soccer--do they flop as much as the men?  My recollection is that they actually appear to play a tougher game with less of the BS that plagues the men's game.

Very surprised to see Canada's women's team with somewhat of a real chance.  Canada's men's team isn't even in the top 100 worldwide.  :bag: 

Canada's men are getting better- MLS has helped a ton. they have some fantastic young players.

I have to lol at the "tougher" comment/dig. the women's game has gotten more sophisticated... and unfortunately, the sophistication and higher speed of play has brought on more embellishing to draw the foul, card, pk. 

we all hate the histrionics in the men's game- these guys are doing everything they can to gain an advantage- and the embellishing and occasional diving is the worst part of it. that said- these are professional athletes getting hit continuously at speed- there are many times when they have to ride a tackle (get off their feet so they don't have their legs broken) that looks to the untrained eye like diving. I see way more of that than I do actual dives, which are getting booked either live or after the fact and happen far less. fwiw- top leagues have instituted video assisted refereeing... mostly for goals and PKs, but also used for diving if I understand correctly. but the histrionics trying to sell contact continues.. and it sucks. and the irony is that the people who do it the most are the people who also hack the most- and then get in the face of the player they've just kicked to the ground who is rolling around.

but I do wonder what all the people who make these "tougher" type comments would do if put in even a college game. never fall down, that's for sure.

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12 minutes ago, chet said:

I haven't watched much women's soccer--do they flop as much as the men?  My recollection is that they actually appear to play a tougher game with less of the BS that plagues the men's game.

Very surprised to see Canada's women's team with somewhat of a real chance.  Canada's men's team isn't even in the top 100 worldwide.  :bag: 

No, not nearly as much flopping in women's soccer.  Decent read here:

 

Quote

 

If you’re a fan and follower of both the men’s World Cup and the women’s World Cup, you may have noticed at least one difference between the two, and it isn’t the excitement of the matches.

It’s the difference in flopping.

The antics on the men’s side would make LeBron James blush – diving divas who have taken theatrics to an art form. It’s either amusing or annoying, depending on your team and your tolerance. It’s certainly common. Stoppage time on the men’s side often ends up being “collapse compensation time.”

One 2011 study at Wake Forest found that men’s soccer matches average 11.26 injuries per match with only 7.2 percent of them being actual injuries. The women’s percentage of real injuries was 13.7 percent.

Beyond that, there’s less whining in the women’s game, less fake outrage at referees, less dramatics. Yet there’s just as much effort and playmaking. It’s refreshing. The players mostly just play.

The question is, why?

Jerry Smith, head coach of the Santa Clara women’s program, has taught both the men’s and women’s game. He says part of it is that boys see their heroes on the men’s side on television and pick up the bad cues as well as the good. “Generally, boys watch much more,” he says. “They see their idols much more on TV.”

Obviously girls watch both the men and the women, but when they get onto teams, the culture is more – shall we say, no-nonsense – because the greatest players have never needed to flop to excel. Mia Hamm rarely went down like a ton of bricks; she rarely lost her balance for any reason.

There might also be a national factor at play. The American men don’t flop as much as some others around the globe – or at least not as overtly.

“When I’m coaching [boys], I’m constantly trying to educate what it’s like to play a game in Germany,” Smith said. “You can’t put your hand on small of somebody’s back or they’ll go down. American players are naïve when it comes to that aspect of the game.”

The American women win World Cups and the rest of the world emulates them. They are the New England Patriots of their sport, and they have their own Patriot Way that doesn’t involve tragicomedy. So there might be reluctance among their competitors to flop and risk the chance that Becky Sauerbrunn simply takes the ball and starts a counterattack while the referee shrugs.

 

Full article

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5 minutes ago, General Malaise said:

They're good and I think they should advance from Group E, which has a very strong Netherlands team and then beatable opponents in New Zealand and Cameroon.  Sinclair is one of the best players in history, but she's on the wrong side of 35 now as is one of their best midfielders Diana Matheson (who also might not be 100% for this).  But, they've got some younger players who had success for their youth teams over recent years.  

don't know much from regular footy, but i do know tournament protocol - so, a good shot of gettin' out their group is half the battle on the 28-1 spec: gotta be in it to win it :shrug:

 

9 minutes ago, General Malaise said:


You might have further interest in players like Adriana Leon, Julia Grosso or Jenna Hellstrom. :whistle:

off to teh Redditz for "Women of the World Cup" :stalker:

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6 minutes ago, General Malaise said:
Quote

 

Beyond that, there’s less whining in the women’s game, less fake outrage at referees, less dramatics. Yet there’s just as much effort and playmaking. It’s refreshing. The players mostly just play.

 

The question is, why?

Jerry Smith, head coach of the Santa Clara women’s program, has taught both the men’s and women’s game. He says part of it is that boys see their heroes on the men’s side on television and pick up the bad cues as well as the good. “Generally, boys watch much more,” he says. “They see their idols much more on TV.”

Obviously girls watch both the men and the women, but when they get onto teams, the culture is more – shall we say, no-nonsense – because the greatest players have never needed to flop to excel. Mia Hamm rarely went down like a ton of bricks; she rarely lost her balance for any reason.

There might also be a national factor at play. The American men don’t flop as much as some others around the globe – or at least not as overtly.

“When I’m coaching [boys], I’m constantly trying to educate what it’s like to play a game in Germany,” Smith said. “You can’t put your hand on small of somebody’s back or they’ll go down. American players are naïve when it comes to that aspect of the game.”

The American women win World Cups and the rest of the world emulates them. They are the New England Patriots of their sport, and they have their own Patriot Way that doesn’t involve tragicomedy. So there might be reluctance among their competitors to flop and risk the chance that Becky Sauerbrunn simply takes the ball and starts a counterattack while the referee shrugs.

 

the bolded part is interesting and dead-on. it's gotten terrible in the men's pro game.

 

the cultural part is true too. US has a naivete towards it, that's unforuntately changing as we can all now watch top pros all over the world. english players used to get in the face of diving players... but even that has changed with it being so common place.

I didn't read the rest of the article, but don't undersell how much money is now riding on each game- for the players, the team, the cities, etc.. a team gets into the champion's league (top 3 or 4 teams in each league) means massive amounts of money for the team. a team gets promoted to the next higher league... same. a team gets relegated (demoted) to the next lower league, they're losing tons of money. each play that can get a player yellow carded, win a pk, gain momentum- these guys are trying to gain the advantage. I'm not trying to support the embellishments here- just trying to pass on what I've heard and seen that might help explain it. and also a major difference between the men and women (who are mostly essentially amateur, semi-pros).

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4 minutes ago, El Floppo said:

the bolded part is interesting and dead-on. it's gotten terrible in the men's pro game.

 

the cultural part is true too. US has a naivete towards it, that's unforuntately changing as we can all now watch top pros all over the world. english players used to get in the face of diving players... but even that has changed with it being so common place.

I didn't read the rest of the article, but don't undersell how much money is now riding on each game- for the players, the team, the cities, etc.. a team gets into the champion's league (top 3 or 4 teams in each league) means massive amounts of money for the team. a team gets promoted to the next higher league... same. a team gets relegated (demoted) to the next lower league, they're losing tons of money. each play that can get a player yellow carded, win a pk, gain momentum- these guys are trying to gain the advantage. I'm not trying to support the embellishments here- just trying to pass on what I've heard and seen that might help explain it. and also a major difference between the men and women (who are mostly essentially amateur, semi-pros).

The problem lies in enforcement.  I assume it's illegal to embellish.  If so, enforce it.  If not, make it illegal and then enforce it.  The players will get the message quickly given your well thought out rationale.

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8 minutes ago, El Floppo said:

the bolded part is interesting and dead-on. it's gotten terrible in the men's pro game.

 

the cultural part is true too. US has a naivete towards it, that's unforuntately changing as we can all now watch top pros all over the world. english players used to get in the face of diving players... but even that has changed with it being so common place.

I didn't read the rest of the article, but don't undersell how much money is now riding on each game- for the players, the team, the cities, etc.. a team gets into the champion's league (top 3 or 4 teams in each league) means massive amounts of money for the team. a team gets promoted to the next higher league... same. a team gets relegated (demoted) to the next lower league, they're losing tons of money. each play that can get a player yellow carded, win a pk, gain momentum- these guys are trying to gain the advantage. I'm not trying to support the embellishments here- just trying to pass on what I've heard and seen that might help explain it. and also a major difference between the men and women (who are mostly essentially amateur, semi-pros).

You're bringing great insight and info to a casual fan who doesn't watch near the amount of soccer that you do.  I appreciate it. :thumbup:

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3 minutes ago, chet said:

The problem lies in enforcement.  I assume it's illegal to embellish.  If so, enforce it.  If not, make it illegal and then enforce it.  The players will get the message quickly given your well thought out rationale.

The exact same conversation has happened a zillion times over the last 20 years. 

FIFA does not care, nor does the vast majority of the world that watches the sport, so we are stuck with it.

It is never going to change in our lifetime, that is for sure.   

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30 minutes ago, El Floppo said:

I have to lol at the "tougher" comment/dig.

Yeah that made me crack up too.

It has absolutely zero to do with toughness.

And just like in every sport where there is embellishment, it is all done to gain an advantage.

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2 minutes ago, NewlyRetired said:

The exact same conversation has happened a zillion times over the last 20 years. 

FIFA does not care, nor does the vast majority of the world that watches the sport, so we are stuck with it.

It is never going to change in our lifetime, that is for sure.   

People were pissed off at Neymar in the WC.  Granted, he's an extreme example but people did care.

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58 minutes ago, CletiusMaximus said:

Also, be prepared during the next month to be repeatedly sucked into ignorant discussions as to whether the US women could beat the men.   :oldschoolrolleyes:

we could always refer them to the Ronda Rousey thread :)

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1 minute ago, NewlyRetired said:

The exact same conversation has happened a zillion times over the last 20 years. 

FIFA does not care, nor does the vast majority of the world that watches the sport, so we are stuck with it.

It is never going to change in our lifetime, that is for sure.   

isn't this what they used to say about fighting in the N.H.L.?

ELI5 the differences, plz :popcorn:

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Just now, chet said:

People were pissed off at Neymar in the WC.  Granted, he's an extreme example but people did care.

and how much changed?

Absolutely nothing.   He became a meme and that was the end of it.

Embellishment continued on as it always has (and I hate it).   

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Can anyone quote the FIFA rule (if there is one) related to embellishment?

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Just now, otb_lifer said:

isn't this what they used to say about fighting in the N.H.L.?

ELI5 the differences, plz :popcorn:

The difference is that the people who run the NHL wanted to remove fighting from the game.

Until the people who run football world wide (FIFA) want to do it, nothing major will happen.   And FIFA makes MLB look progressive in comparison to how slow it makes changes. 

We already have rules in place, we already have some video review, but nothing has changed in the culture because unfortunately a large amount of the world does not really care.

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8 minutes ago, El Floppo said:

Canada's men are getting better- MLS has helped a ton. they have some fantastic young players.

I have to lol at the "tougher" comment/dig. the women's game has gotten more sophisticated... and unfortunately, the sophistication and higher speed of play has brought on more embellishing to draw the foul, card, pk. 

we all hate the histrionics in the men's game- these guys are doing everything they can to gain an advantage- and the embellishing and occasional diving is the worst part of it. that said- these are professional athletes getting hit continuously at speed- there are many times when they have to ride a tackle (get off their feet so they don't have their legs broken) that looks to the untrained eye like diving. I see way more of that than I do actual dives, which are getting booked either live or after the fact and happen far less. fwiw- top leagues have instituted video assisted refereeing... mostly for goals and PKs, but also used for diving if I understand correctly. but the histrionics trying to sell contact continues.. and it sucks. and the irony is that the people who do it the most are the people who also hack the most- and then get in the face of the player they've just kicked to the ground who is rolling around.

but I do wonder what all the people who make these "tougher" type comments would do if put in even a college game. never fall down, that's for sure.

Disagree here.  The women just play and don't flop and complain, at least the US woman in the matches I've watched.  i also don't see a ton of flopping in mens college soccer, over course the hits and fouls are very real there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypZO-ULHFxA

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Just now, BassNBrew said:

Disagree here.  The women just play and don't flop and complain, at least the US woman in the matches I've watched.

as the women's game has grown in traditional soccer playing countries the past 5-7 years, the women are starting to emulate their male counter parts (which makes sense since that is who they are likely to emulate until they carve out their own culture) in adding some embellishment to the game.

Like the mens game, it is a little more prevalent in the South American countries than else where.

It is no where near as bad as what the men do, but that may change as the years move forward.

 

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Just now, NewlyRetired said:

there absolutely is a rule.  There are yellow cards given fairly regularly for blatant dives (usually in the box).

The page I linked differentiates diving (no contact) from embellishment (some contact but not enough to cause a player to fall).  

Page 48 of the document you linked appears to call for a yellow if a player fakes an injury or pretends to have been fouled.  Jebus, they devote 5 pages to illegal jersey removal and how that merits a yellow and 1 overly vague page on embellishment.  They have their priorities all ####ed up, and yes, I am starting to see how FIFA doesn't care about it.  

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15 minutes ago, NewlyRetired said:

The difference is that the people who run the NHL wanted to remove fighting from the game.

Until the people who run football world wide (FIFA) want to do it, nothing major will happen.   And FIFA makes MLB look progressive in comparison to how slow it makes changes. 

We already have rules in place, we already have some video review, but nothing has changed in the culture because unfortunately a large amount of the world does not really care.

:goodposting:

I also think Olympic Hockey showed that the game could be played and the fans would enjoy it without the fighting.  So they worked to eliminate it.

FIFA wants people arguing and talking about it.  Plus its not looked as down upon in other countries as it is here.  

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4 minutes ago, chet said:

The page I linked differentiates diving (no contact) from embellishment (some contact but not enough to cause a player to fall).  

Page 48 of the document you linked appears to call for a yellow if a player fakes an injury or pretends to have been fouled.  Jebus, they devote 5 pages to illegal jersey removal and how that merits a yellow and 1 overly vague page on embellishment.  They have their priorities all ####ed up, and yes, I am starting to see how FIFA doesn't care about it.  

yup. :(

I fully believe we have all the tools to remove it entirely from the game but the impetus is not there and I don't see any indication that it will be in the future.

Also worth noting that FIFA is about the most dysfunctional sporting body around.  The sport flourishes in spite of them, not because of them.

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I am surprised the US is the favorite.  Maybe its the defending champs angle but after watching several games over the last couple years, any team in the top 9 have a good shot to beat the US.  10 is Brazil and I don't think they have a chance unless Marta has a tourney like Lloyd did last WC.

This team is weak in the back and very weak in goal.  Ertz needs to play the 6 but may end up to often in the back line to help.  Coach Jill seems to think converting wings to outside backs is the answer.  Was a bandaid forMan United with Valencia/Young, but isn't the answer. 

For the first time in a long time I think the US is beatable.

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1 minute ago, NewlyRetired said:

 

Also worth noting that FIFA is about the most dysfunctional sporting body around. 

the Sport of Kings would like a word ... 

:deadhorse:

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22 minutes ago, NewlyRetired said:

there absolutely is a rule.  There are yellow cards given fairly regularly for blatant dives (usually in the box).

:giggle: :snort:

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1 minute ago, otb_lifer said:

the Sport of Kings would like a word ... 

:deadhorse:

oh there are plenty of contenders I agree :)

The people who run NCAA, Boxing, Horse Racing, Olympics are all corrupt to the core just to name a few. 

FIFA tends to be considered king in this area simply because the sport is so massive.

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2 hours ago, El Floppo said:

A couple people have asked in the two soccer threads about this... and it seems like this event has fans beyond the usual soccer crowd, so this is for you.

Where'd you learn how to count?

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1 hour ago, CletiusMaximus said:

Also, be prepared during the next month to be repeatedly sucked into ignorant discussions as to whether the US women could beat the men.   :oldschoolrolleyes:

I meant to mention earlier that there is a very easy way to end these conversations quickly.  Just point them to articles like this:

FC Dallas under-15 boys squad beat the U.S. Women's National Team 5-2 in a scrimmage

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10 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

Should I throw together a quick drinking guide?  Or are people tired of that?

Those are great but also feel they generally go unappreciated. Just post your cocktail of the day maybe?

 

Are you even drinking anymore, slim? 

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29 minutes ago, Bluto Blutarsky said:

Those are great but also feel they generally go unappreciated. Just post your cocktail of the day maybe?

 

Are you even drinking anymore, slim? 

You people should appreciate me a lot more around here!  ;)

I've had the same thought but I enjoy them and enhance them a little each year.  Honestly, I've spent more time doing the guide than drinking during the last 3 big soccer tournaments. 

I'm drinking light beer and liquor.  No carb bombs or cocktails.  I've got two days and the shell of the last version so I may go ahead and give it a shot - shouldn't be too much work.

And for those who have no clue what we are talking about

World Cup Drinking Guide

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1 hour ago, BassNBrew said:

Disagree here.  The women just play and don't flop and complain, at least the US woman in the matches I've watched.  i also don't see a ton of flopping in mens college soccer, over course the hits and fouls are very real there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypZO-ULHFxA

US women maybe. it's the World cup, so it's more than just hte US women.

1 hour ago, NewlyRetired said:

as the women's game has grown in traditional soccer playing countries the past 5-7 years, the women are starting to emulate their male counter parts (which makes sense since that is who they are likely to emulate until they carve out their own culture) in adding some embellishment to the game.

Like the mens game, it is a little more prevalent in the South American countries than else where.

It is no where near as bad as what the men do, but that may change as the years move forward.

 

this.

plus the comment I made earlier about the money attached to the men' game relative to the women's. 

but yeah- it's also a cultural thing in a big way. I talk to some (not all) friends from central/south america and parts of  europe and they see the diving/embellishment as a skill and part of the game- to even be celebrated by some. I worked with some guatemalan guys who absolutely loved carlos ruiz because he would get under the US team's skin doing all of this. 

 

1 hour ago, AAABatteries said:

Where'd you learn how to count?

match-day thread hadn't seen any USWNT comments yet- so 1+1 = your mom.

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56 minutes ago, NewlyRetired said:

I meant to mention earlier that there is a very easy way to end these conversations quickly.  Just point them to articles like this:

FC Dallas under-15 boys squad beat the U.S. Women's National Team 5-2 in a scrimmage

 

Quote

Of course, this match against the academy team was very informal and should not be a major cause for alarm. The U.S. surely wasn’t going all out, with the main goal being to get some minutes on the pitch, build chemistry when it comes to moving the ball around, improve defensive shape and get ready for Russia.

 

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10 minutes ago, chet said:

 

 

yes that is why it is called a scrimmage, as both teams were likely not at full speed.   

It still shows the massive gap between the men and women.  These were 13 and 14 year old boys, from one city, scoring more goals than I have ever seen any women's national team score against the USWNT, in any level of competition from meaningless scrimmage to a WC game.

This is exactly why the women's team schedule games against this age group because it helps them get ready.   If they can some what match up with young teenage males, they are going to do very well against the other female teams.

Edited by NewlyRetired

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7 minutes ago, chet said:
1 hour ago, NewlyRetired said:

I meant to mention earlier that there is a very easy way to end these conversations quickly.  Just point them to articles like this:

FC Dallas under-15 boys squad beat the U.S. Women's National Team 5-2 in a scrimmage

 

Quote

Of course, this match against the academy team was very informal and should not be a major cause for alarm. The U.S. surely wasn’t going all out, with the main goal being to get some minutes on the pitch, build chemistry when it comes to moving the ball around, improve defensive shape and get ready for Russia.

well, that's settled then. 

the women are all kinds of awesome- but it's the power and speed of play that just can't compete against the men or older boys. 

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