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El Floppo

Official US Women's soocer thread- formerly 2019 WC thread

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58 minutes ago, Long Ball Larry said:

 

I don't know anything about the history of this whole issue, but reading up a bit today after seeing a headline.  According to this article:

So if the total revenue actually is greater (I have no idea if this is accurate and/or the full scope of the situation) for women, why shouldn't they be compensated more in the collective bargaining agreement?  Is an issue that putting on twice as many events leads to much higher costs for the women to generate that revenue, so there is actually less to distribute?  I'm sure that there are many nuances to this whole situation.  

I was initially going to argue for my first point, but now that I am thinking about it, it probably would be apples and oranges to just use revenue and a revenue-sharing model.

the issue is not revenue per say, it is more based on compensation.

US Soccer pays the NWSL salaries for the players.

US Soccer considers the salaries part of the players total compensation.  The players do not.

That is the key point in the whole dispute.  The players made it clear in their public statement that the club salaries that US Soccer pay them should not be considered part of the compensation.

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7 hours ago, NewlyRetired said:

the issue is not revenue per say, it is more based on compensation.

US Soccer pays the NWSL salaries for the players.

US Soccer considers the salaries part of the players total compensation.  The players do not.

That is the key point in the whole dispute.  The players made it clear in their public statement that the club salaries that US Soccer pay them should not be considered part of the compensation.

They better have a really, really good explanation for that.

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48 minutes ago, Christo said:

They better have a really, really good explanation for that.

That’s the key point to me.

Do they think the pro league won’t fold if the federation stops paying their salaries? (which I would assume they will if they get their wish and that isn’t considered compensation?

And if the league folds, what are they left with? A traveling futsal team barnstorming around facing off against the women’s soccer equivalent  of the Washington Generals? (pretty much just the superstars getting paid in that case)

Or, I suppose they roll back to the old pre-Dream Team Olympic model and roll with a bunch of NCAA players and probably be almost as good?

And the timing of the whole thing is a double-edged sword. Yes, visibility and enthusiasm are at a peak following the World Cup, but I believe a lot do folks are boarding the “don’t care, talk to me in 4 years” bus.

I totally agree with getting an equal percentage of  any profit generated, but demanding those salaries be excluded doesn’t generate much sympathy from me. 

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34 minutes ago, Rustoleum said:

That’s the key point to me.

Do they think the pro league won’t fold if the federation stops paying their salaries? (which I would assume they will if they get their wish and that isn’t considered compensation?

And if the league folds, what are they left with? A traveling futsal team barnstorming around facing off against the women’s soccer equivalent  of the Washington Generals? (pretty much just the superstars getting paid in that case)

 

The women in the national team pool would play in Europe, as almost all of them have done at one time. 

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51 minutes ago, Rustoleum said:

That’s the key point to me.

Do they think the pro league won’t fold if the federation stops paying their salaries? (which I would assume they will if they get their wish and that isn’t considered compensation?

And if the league folds, what are they left with? A traveling futsal team barnstorming around facing off against the women’s soccer equivalent  of the Washington Generals? (pretty much just the superstars getting paid in that case)

Or, I suppose they roll back to the old pre-Dream Team Olympic model and roll with a bunch of NCAA players and probably be almost as good?

And the timing of the whole thing is a double-edged sword. Yes, visibility and enthusiasm are at a peak following the World Cup, but I believe a lot do folks are boarding the “don’t care, talk to me in 4 years” bus.

I totally agree with getting an equal percentage of  any profit generated, but demanding those salaries be excluded doesn’t generate much sympathy from me. 

One argument I've heard is that US Soccer also propped up MLS in is early yeas, invested in it at a loss.  I don't know the details and I'm sure its not apples/apples, as nothing is in this dispute.  If true, I suppose that is somewhat relevant to the discussion where some are now saying the current NWSL investment should be part of equation, but please ignore the historical investment in MLS.

 

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Anything from preventing these women from trying out for the USMNT?  Well besides the fact they get destroyed by 14 yo kids on a routine basis.

Seems like the simple solution is USAM soccer organization and USAW soccer organization.  Those two organizations could pay and schedule as they see fit.

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1 hour ago, CletiusMaximus said:

One argument I've heard is that US Soccer also propped up MLS in is early yeas, invested in it at a loss.  I don't know the details and I'm sure its not apples/apples, as nothing is in this dispute.  If true, I suppose that is somewhat relevant to the discussion where some are now saying the current NWSL investment should be part of equation, but please ignore the historical investment in MLS.

 

But they still have to go one step further and demontrate why US Soccer's early investment in MLS means that it's current investment in the NWSL should not be a consideration in how much it currently pays the women.

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1 hour ago, CletiusMaximus said:

One argument I've heard is that US Soccer also propped up MLS in is early yeas, invested in it at a loss.  I don't know the details and I'm sure its not apples/apples, as nothing is in this dispute.  If true, I suppose that is somewhat relevant to the discussion where some are now saying the current NWSL investment should be part of equation, but please ignore the historical investment in MLS.

This was US Soccer biggest mistake.

Way way way back in the 90's, US Soccer loaned MLS $5m.   As MLS turned the century and was about to go out of business, US Soccer forgave the loan.

Had US Soccer done the same thing with the NWSL, we would not be in this mess.  By paying the players directly, instead of the league, they caused this entire mess.

That being said, US Soccer has invested way more than $5m,  in todays money, in the NWSL so there is no need to ignore anything via MLS's past.

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3 hours ago, Rustoleum said:

Do they think the pro league won’t fold if the federation stops paying their salaries? (which I would assume they will if they get their wish and that isn’t considered compensation?

This is the other half of the mess US Soccer created.

By not paying the league directly a set amount, and instead paying ongoing salaries, they are now stuck in a PR nightmare that the women are beating them over the head with.

US Soccer probably would love to simply redo the CBA, give the women what the want for equality and simply remove the salaries, but then they run the exact risk you mentioned, and that is being blamed for possibly causing the league to fold.

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2 hours ago, Ramsay Hunt Experience said:

The women in the national team pool would play in Europe, as almost all of them have done at one time. 

This is something that should be encouraged.

It took MLS almost 20 years to pay decent money to players.   No one should expect the NWSL to do it so soon.  US male players for decades had to look all over for a decent wage while MLS was still paying peanuts trying to stay afloat.

The women who can command higher pay outside of the NWSL, should be encouraged to do so.

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1 hour ago, Christo said:

But they still have to go one step further and demontrate why US Soccer's early investment in MLS means that it's current investment in the NWSL should not be a consideration in how much it currently pays the women.

I think they have a hell of a lot more than just that to deal with if they want to establish a claim under the equal pay act, but yeah, this thing just gets more and more convoluted the deeper it gets. The main thing is that the women are winning the public relations war by a large margin as far as I can tell, and that’s probably going to get them a new deal. Their timing was obviously well-executed. 

 

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1 hour ago, NewlyRetired said:

This was US Soccer biggest mistake.

Way way way back in the 90's, US Soccer loaned MLS $5m.   As MLS turned the century and was about to go out of business, US Soccer forgave the loan.

Had US Soccer done the same thing with the NWSL, we would not be in this mess.  By paying the players directly, instead of the league, they caused this entire mess.

That being said, US Soccer has invested way more than $5m,  in todays money, in the NWSL so there is no need to ignore anything via MLS's past.

The entire issue of league support just massively complicates things, one of the reasons being that US Soccer is supporting foreign players as well as US players in these leagues. I guess I don’t really know for certain, but assume us soccer pays or at least subsidizes the league salaries of Sam Kerr and Marta among others. How does that figure into the equal pay lawsuit? When you also consider there’s no way to meaningfully allocate commercial revenue between the men or women, I suppose it’s no wonder the media focuses on easily quantifiable but less meaningful components like gate receipts and per diems. 

 

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8 hours ago, CletiusMaximus said:

The entire issue of league support just massively complicates things, one of the reasons being that US Soccer is supporting foreign players as well as US players in these leagues. I guess I don’t really know for certain, but assume us soccer pays or at least subsidizes the league salaries of Sam Kerr and Marta among others. How does that figure into the equal pay lawsuit? When you also consider there’s no way to meaningfully allocate commercial revenue between the men or women, I suppose it’s no wonder the media focuses on easily quantifiable but less meaningful components like gate receipts and per diems. 

 

My understanding is that the USSF and it’s Canadian and Mexican counterparts cover the salaries for their pools. I don’t think any other salaries are paid by an FA. 

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9 hours ago, CletiusMaximus said:

The entire issue of league support just massively complicates things, one of the reasons being that US Soccer is supporting foreign players as well as US players in these leagues. I guess I don’t really know for certain, but assume us soccer pays or at least subsidizes the league salaries of Sam Kerr and Marta among others. How does that figure into the equal pay lawsuit? When you also consider there’s no way to meaningfully allocate commercial revenue between the men or women, I suppose it’s no wonder the media focuses on easily quantifiable but less meaningful components like gate receipts and per diems. 

 

The media doesn't actually want to understand the details of a story it's covering, you say. Hmmmm.

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3 hours ago, Ramsay Hunt Experience said:

My understanding is that the USSF and it’s Canadian and Mexican counterparts cover the salaries for their pools. I don’t think any other salaries are paid by an FA. 

This is my understanding as well.

Although, Marta's deal is unique I believe.  If I remember correctly, she makes a nominal NWSL salary ($41k) but a bunch of sponsors kicked in a ton of money for her.

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4 hours ago, Christo said:

The media doesn't actually want to understand the details of a story it's covering, you say. Hmmmm.

Decent sources for accurate info I've found are @McCannSportsLaw, @turneresq and @ProfBank 

McCann recently moved to SI and I think his stuff has become a bit watered down as a result.

 

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Men in Blazers podcast - with interview of Sam Kerr

Apple: https://tinyurl.com/yy5zxp5f
Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/y3hxlerj
SoundCloud: https://tinyurl.com/yxvvxgpu

 

Men in Blazer might not be your thing - but a really good interview with Sam Kerr - starts at 13:00.  Wish she was American.  :kicksrock:

 

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1 hour ago, Sinn Fein said:

Men in Blazers podcast - with interview of Sam Kerr

Apple: https://tinyurl.com/yy5zxp5f
Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/y3hxlerj
SoundCloud: https://tinyurl.com/yxvvxgpu

 

Men in Blazer might not be your thing - but a really good interview with Sam Kerr - starts at 13:00.  Wish she was American.  :kicksrock:

 

Kerr puts Chicago up 1-0 (over Portland)

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Sam Kerr taking her talents to Chelsea.

 

Thats a big pick up for Chelsea, and the Women's Super League.  I wonder what it says, if anything about the future of the Women's league here in the US.  Will the money catch-up - to allow the league to attract world stars, or are they destined to head to Europe?

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Meanwhile, Megan Rapinoe is upset about NWSL's new allocation money (which is designated for players other than USWNT and Canadian internationals) -->  ‘Um, you’re telling me we're opening up the money but I’m stuck?’

Rapinoe had zero goals and zero assists for the Reign in 5 appearances last season, but did manage to win a world cup and release a new clothing line in which a pair of sweatpants cost $150.

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9 minutes ago, CletiusMaximus said:

Meanwhile, Megan Rapinoe is upset about NWSL's new allocation money (which is designated for players other than USWNT and Canadian internationals) -->  ‘Um, you’re telling me we're opening up the money but I’m stuck?’

Rapinoe had zero goals and zero assists for the Reign in 5 appearances last season, but did manage to win a world cup and release a new clothing line in which a pair of sweatpants cost $150.

I am kind of stuck here - because I hate agreeing with Rapinoe - but I kind of agree with Rapinoe.

Not necessarily her specifically - but money is money.  Pay the players what they are worth.  If the league can't afford the world's biggest stars - I think that says more about the league than anything.

 

(Caveat - I don't follow the finances all that much, but I suspect the major women's teams in Europe might be at an advantage if they are being subsidized by the overall football operations of a given club, so that they might be able to run the woman's team at a loss, if the mens team is making a large enough profit.  Having said that, I know anecdotally that the women's game, overall, in Europe is on fire right now - drawing bigger crowds - and presumably attracting sponsors...)

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30 minutes ago, CletiusMaximus said:

Meanwhile, Megan Rapinoe is upset about NWSL's new allocation money (which is designated for players other than USWNT and Canadian internationals) -->  ‘Um, you’re telling me we're opening up the money but I’m stuck?’

Rapinoe had zero goals and zero assists for the Reign in 5 appearances last season, but did manage to win a world cup and release a new clothing line in which a pair of sweatpants cost $150.

Seems easy to me, then agree to do away with US Soccer paying your league salary in the next CBA. One CBA to cover all players regardless of if they play on the national team or not. If teams value you over another top player they'll pay you as such. If not then you get paid like the other NSWL players.

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1 hour ago, Sinn Fein said:

I am kind of stuck here - because I hate agreeing with Rapinoe - but I kind of agree with Rapinoe.

Not necessarily her specifically - but money is money.  Pay the players what they are worth.  If the league can't afford the world's biggest stars - I think that says more about the league than anything.

 

(Caveat - I don't follow the finances all that much, but I suspect the major women's teams in Europe might be at an advantage if they are being subsidized by the overall football operations of a given club, so that they might be able to run the woman's team at a loss, if the mens team is making a large enough profit.  Having said that, I know anecdotally that the women's game, overall, in Europe is on fire right now - drawing bigger crowds - and presumably attracting sponsors...)

I'm a big Rapinoe fan, and have no allegiance to the NWSL at all.  I just think she's an odd one to be a champion of pay rights for US players in the NWSL when she hardly played for her club at all last season.  I know she was hurt a fair bit last season, but it was pretty obvious her focus was on the USWNT and seizing the moment to promote herself (absolutely her right to do and I think everyone would do the same).  I get why they did the victory tour, and have no complaints about that, but it was pretty obviously at the expense of those players' clubs.   It seems hypocritical to make that decision, then pretend to be a great supporter of the league.

I have no idea what it will take for the league to succeed, but it seems pretty obvious that losing a player like Kerr is not good for the league.  This allocation money is presumably meant to address that.

 

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4 hours ago, SwampDawg said:

Seems easy to me, then agree to do away with US Soccer paying your league salary in the next CBA. One CBA to cover all players regardless of if they play on the national team or not. If teams value you over another top player they'll pay you as such. If not then you get paid like the other NSWL players.

The ironic thing about the whole story is that it was Rapino herself who championed the whole idea of US Soccer paying their salaries during the last CBA.

The women look worse and worse with each complaint.  First they want every one to ignore US Soccer massive financial commitment to the NWSL that they themselves pushed for, while flying the equal pay banner, now they are pissed that they can't partake in the new allocation money because they are already being paid higher than anyone else in the league by US Soccer, again by their own decree in the CBA.

The sooner US Soccer extricates themselves from this stupid deal the better for everyone.  And I mean that on both sides.  We all know how broken US Soccer is, I think the NWSL may be better off in the long run if they start managing their own finances across the board.

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Rapinoe won FIFAs ballon d'or as the world's best female soccer player this year. 

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19 minutes ago, El Floppo said:

Rapinoe won FIFAs ballon d'or as the world's best female soccer player this year. 

yet another reason the Ballon d'or is a joke of an award.

She wasnt the best player on her team in the wc, let along the tournament.  She had little to no impact on her club team.  Barely played in the "victory tour"....

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19 minutes ago, El Floppo said:

Rapinoe won FIFAs ballon d'or as the world's best female soccer player this year. 

I gotta say I just don't get it.  I know she's the best free kick and penalty taker the US has, but outside of that she's always seemed very pedestrian to me.  

I have no idea how an objective voting council could vote for Rapinoe over say Samantha Kerr if you're judging fairly on this season.  

 

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8 minutes ago, encaitar said:

I gotta say I just don't get it.  I know she's the best free kick and penalty taker the US has, but outside of that she's always seemed very pedestrian to me.  

I have no idea how an objective voting council could vote for Rapinoe over say Samantha Kerr if you're judging fairly on this season.  

 

By "always" you must mean the last year or so... She's been a massive player and part of the US previously, and one of their most fun to watch.

But yeah...this year, was all about the PKs and goals to help the US win the WC...she wasn't even the "best" player on the team, let alone world.

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36 minutes ago, El Floppo said:

By "always" you must mean the last year or so... She's been a massive player and part of the US previously, and one of their most fun to watch.

But yeah...this year, was all about the PKs and goals to help the US win the WC...she wasn't even the "best" player on the team, let alone world.

I do mean this year.  She was quite a bit pacier in the past and was usually one of the US's best players before.  I honestly thought she shouldn't have even started this year's WC as Press and Pugh offered more to our attack IMO.

And her winning Balon d' Or Feminin shows what a joke the award is.

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Rapinoe has been a good player but the last 1-2 years she has been poor and undeserving of the awards she has been given. however she is high profile, outgoing, outspoken, etc etc.  She is in the public eye and brings viewers in (love her or hate her)

Was this the first year of the women's award?  That may be why...

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On 12/5/2019 at 12:39 PM, B Maverick said:

Rapinoe has been a good player but the last 1-2 years she has been poor and undeserving of the awards she has been given. however she is high profile, outgoing, outspoken, etc etc.  She is in the public eye and brings viewers in (love her or hate her)

Was this the first year of the women's award?  That may be why...

2nd year. The Norwegian woman who chose to sit out the WC won last year

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US women started their Olympic qualifiers on tuesday vs Haiti.

Even us soccer geeks didn't know about it. Sounds like it was bundled/bungled into a tv deal on fox (with men's tournaments) that only got settled the day before the game...so no advertising. And it was on fs2.

They won 4-0 at home in Houston in front of what what sounds like a handful of friends and family rather than the hordes of adoring fans they should have had for their first competitive game since winning the WC.

Maybe next time will be better.

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The women continue Olympic qualifying in Houston.

Vs Panama, Friday 1/31 8:30pm, FS+

Vs Costa Rica, Monday 2/3 8:30pm, FS1

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And the men have a friendly game vs Costa Rica this Saturday at 4pm...featuring all young MLS guys and a handful of guys on Scandinavian teams.

This isn't an official FIFA international break for the men, so teams in Europe never release their players (other than scandi leagues that have an extended winter break) for this annual "camp cupcake" for the US; none of the USs "big" stars will be there. Looks like a potential Olympic tryout roster (u23) featuring a handful of teens and first time players and citizens (Jesus Ferreira just got citizenship- born in Colombia). Looks like it will be somewhere on ESPN, and will likely be preempted for bowling, curling or some other more worldly important sport.

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Maybe it's time to turn this into the ***Official US Women's Soccer*** thread?

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12 hours ago, El Floppo said:

US women started their Olympic qualifiers on tuesday vs Haiti.

Even us soccer geeks didn't know about it. Sounds like it was bundled/bungled into a tv deal on fox (with men's tournaments) that only got settled the day before the game...so no advertising. And it was on fs2.

They won 4-0 at home in Houston in front of what what sounds like a handful of friends and family rather than the hordes of adoring fans they should have had for their first competitive game since winning the WC.

Maybe next time will be better.

I ended up watching it, mainly by stumbling across the listing on HULU.

The crowd support was sad. Team played pretty sluggish in the first half before finally picking it up in the second half.

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18 minutes ago, ChiefD said:

I ended up watching it, mainly by stumbling across the listing on HULU.

The crowd support was sad. Team played pretty sluggish in the first half before finally picking it up in the second half.

Unless Mexico is playing, Houston fans don't seem to go to soccer games much.  Neither the Dynamo nor the NWSL team there draw well.

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On 1/30/2020 at 7:40 AM, El Floppo said:

The women continue Olympic qualifying in Houston.

Vs Panama, Friday 1/31 8:30pm, FS+

Vs Costa Rica, Monday 2/3 8:30pm, FS1

8-0 vs Panama

6-0 vs Costa Rica

The USWNT will face the runner-up of Group B, either Mexico or Canada, with a victory in the semifinal round clinching a spot in the 2020 Summer Olympics in Tokyo.

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5 hours ago, El Floppo said:

8-0 vs Panama

6-0 vs Costa Rica

The USWNT will face the runner-up of Group B, either Mexico or Canada, with a victory in the semifinal round clinching a spot in the 2020 Summer Olympics in Tokyo.

Watched last night's 6-0 drubbing of CR.  Noticed something about the USWNT, their passes were often late and a little off, but they are so much better then their opponent it didn't matter.

Great Goals by Press.  She looked goooooood (;))

The last goal didn't cross the line and shouldn't have been given in a 5-0 route. Goal line tech should be standard issue at all the top levels and national team matches in major tourneys and qualifiers.

Canada may be the only team that gives the US a game, but I don't see the US losing.  Although if its the final it may not matter since both teams would have qualified.

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Canada beat Mexico to set up a game with Costa Rica.

The US will face Mexico at 10 p.m. ET Friday,.

Winners make the Olympics.

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2 hours ago, El Floppo said:

Canada beat Mexico to set up a game with Costa Rica.

The US will face Mexico at 10 p.m. ET Friday,.

Winners make the Olympics.

Can the loser qualify or is it winner take all?

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7 minutes ago, Capella said:

Can the loser qualify or is it winner take all?

Loser gets a set of steak knives.

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1 minute ago, El Floppo said:

Loser gets a set of steak knives.

If they’re cutco, count me in!

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Wiki says that Mex has only beaten the US once, in 2010. But I recall something more recent which may have been a friendly.

US should be lopsided favorites, but anything could happen.

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2 hours ago, El Floppo said:

Loser gets a set of steak knives.

... can they at least go across the street to Jerry Graf?

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On 2/5/2020 at 9:47 AM, El Floppo said:

Wiki says that Mex has only beaten the US once, in 2010. But I recall something more recent which may have been a friendly.

US should be lopsided favorites, but anything could happen.

US beat Mex 4-0 to qualify for the Olympics a couple days ago, and just beat co-qualifier Canada in our region's final 3-0.

They'll have to be favored in Tokyo.

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19 hours ago, El Floppo said:

US beat Mex 4-0 to qualify for the Olympics a couple days ago, and just beat co-qualifier Canada in our region's final 3-0.

They'll have to be favored in Tokyo.

I would think so, but the European teams should put up more of a fight then the Concacaf teams did.

Scary to think that with a real coach who has a plan and tactics, the US team can actually get better.  The real test will follow the Olympics when they have to find the next group of studs as the previous gets up there in age.  They need to find another striker.

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Kelsey Trainor

@ktrain_11

The Court has GRANTED summary judgment in favor of US Soccer on the #USWNT Equal Pay Act Claim, saying that no material issue of fact exists for trial.

 

 

Legally, this is the correct answer.  I don't think the women ever really had a good case - PR issues aside.

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This has obviously been a weird year in terms of team sports - and soccer is not exempt.  But I wonder if the US dominance in Women's Soccer has peaked - it seems the European club teams are starting to spend more and more money, and they already have the infrastructure in place - and attracting the world's best soccer players.

Can the NWSL survive?

What will that do to the development of women's soccer - in Europe and in the US?

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22 minutes ago, The Gator said:

This has obviously been a weird year in terms of team sports - and soccer is not exempt.  But I wonder if the US dominance in Women's Soccer has peaked - it seems the European club teams are starting to spend more and more money, and they already have the infrastructure in place - and attracting the world's best soccer players.

Can the NWSL survive?

What will that do to the development of women's soccer - in Europe and in the US?

It's been coming rapidly, because of what you've said. Top clubs/staff/infrastructure already in place...expanded, not niche, generation of girls growing up playing and a lot more money being invested. In spite of the pro league here, the US still essentially relies on Title 9 and the college game to build players. 

It's interesting to see more and more top US women going to Europe to play for the big clubs. Mewis and Lavelle both just signed for Manchester City who is playing in the Community Shield right now as I type.

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