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timschochet

I’ve changed my mind; it’s time to impeach Donald Trump

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Sometimes simple logic needs to hit me in the face, and until it does I lack clarity. Often I’m late to the party; a lot of other people see stuff clearly before I do. 

This is one of those cases. Senator Elizabeth Warren gave a speech last night, which I heard today, that made things clear to me in a way that they hadn’t been before (through no one’s fault but my own.) Here is what she said that gave me clarity: 

When I read the Mueller Report, there were 3 points that I could not escape: 

Point #1 is that a foreign power, Russia, interfered in our election of 2016 with the direct purpose of getting Donald Trump elected President of the United States. 

Point #2 is that Donald Trump welcomed the aid and interference of the foreign power, Russia, in helping him to win the election. 

Point #3 is that when Congress and the Justice Department attempted to examine and investigate  the Russian interference, Donald Trump as President did everything he could to impede, block, prevent, and interfere with the investigation, and obstructed justice to do so. 

She went on to assert that if Trump weren’t President he’d be in handcuffs right now; that’s a bit of hyperbole IMO. But it doesn’t matter. It’s the part I quoted that gave me the epiphany. I’ve been wrong. For the sake of our country’s integrity, for the sake of the rule of law, Trump needs to be impeached. The fact that he very likely won’t be removed doesn’t matter. The fact that a lot of Americans don’t want this doesn’t matter. The fact that it might even help Trump get re-elected doesn’t matter. We need to show our grandchildren that some of us were willing to stand up and do the right thing. 

Edited by timschochet
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2 minutes ago, Gr00vus said:

Better late than never I guess. Maybe you'll listen to us next time?

I always listen to you GB. I don’t always agree but I always listen. 

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4 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

You should just have an all encompassing thread for everything you figure out a month or more late.  

A month would be great. Usually it takes me several years. 

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8 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Sometimes simple logic needs to hit me in the face, and until it does I lack clarity. Often I’m late to the party; a lot of other people see stuff clearly before I do. 

This is one of those cases. Senator Elizabeth Warren gave a speech last night, which I heard today, that made things clear to me in a way that they hadn’t been before (through no one’s fault but my own.) Here is what she said that gave me clarity: 

When I read the Mueller Report, there were 3 points that I could not escape: 

Point #1 is that a foreign power, Russia, interfered in our election of 2016 with the direct purpose of getting Donald Trump elected President of the United States. 

Point #2 is that Donald Trump welcomed the aid and interference of the foreign power, Russia, in helping him to win the election. 

Point #3 is that when Congress and the Justice Department attempted to examine and investigate  the Russian interference, Donald Trump as President did everything he could to impede, block, prevent, and interfere with the investigation, and obstructed justice to do so. 

She went on to assert that if Trump weren’t President he’d be in handcuffs right now; that’s a bit of hyperbole IMO. But it doesn’t matter. It’s the part I quoted that gave me the epiphany. I’ve been wrong. For the sake of our country’s integrity, for the sake of the rule of law, Trump needs to be impeached. The fact that he very likely won’t be removed doesn’t matter. The fact that a lot of Americans don’t want this doesn’t matter. The fact that it might even help Trump get re-elected doesn’t matter. We need to show our grandchildren that some of us were willing to stand up and do the right thing. 

Would it be successful in your opinion?  Peliso doesn’t think so..

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14 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Sometimes simple logic needs to hit me in the face, and until it does I lack clarity. Often I’m late to the party; a lot of other people see stuff clearly before I do. 

This is one of those cases. Senator Elizabeth Warren gave a speech last night, which I heard today, that made things clear to me in a way that they hadn’t been before (through no one’s fault but my own.) Here is what she said that gave me clarity: 

[...]

She went on to assert that if Trump weren’t President he’d be in handcuffs right now; that’s a bit of hyperbole IMO. But it doesn’t matter. It’s the part I quoted that gave me the epiphany. I’ve been wrong. For the sake of our country’s integrity, for the sake of the rule of law, Trump needs to be impeached. The fact that he very likely won’t be removed doesn’t matter. The fact that a lot of Americans don’t want this doesn’t matter. The fact that it might even help Trump get re-elected doesn’t matter. We need to show our grandchildren that some of us were willing to stand up and do the right thing. 

It matters the most, Tim. If doing the right thing results in four more years of Trump, the damage to this country and our institutions may be irrevocable (if it already isn't).

If the Democrats go the impeachment route, that is all that will be talked about until the 2020 election, irrespective of the issues. Trump will play the victim, scream "Witch Hunt!!!" and it could well result in a second Trump term that will be disastrous to our nation, once he becomes a lame duck POTUS.

Edited by squistion

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2 minutes ago, stlrams said:

Would it be successful in your opinion?  Peliso doesn’t think so..

If you mean would he be removed? I doubt it. There is always the possibility that public hearings will change peoples minds but enough Republicans support him so that he will almost certainly win any Senate vote. 

However, if I broaden your question to encompass history, then I think it will be successful, because it will show that some of us weren’t willing to let the rule of law go down. 

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1 minute ago, squistion said:

It matters the most, Tim. If doing the right thing results in four more years of Trump, the damage to this country and our institutions may be irrevocable (if it already isn't).

If the Democrats go the impeachment route, that is all that will be talked about until the 2020 election, irrespective of the issues. Trump will play the victim, scream "Witch Hunt!!!" and it could well result in a second Trump term that will be disastrous to our nation, once he becomes a lame duck POTUS.

I can’t blame you for holding this opinion because up to today I’ve pretty much held it myself. 

Nobody has any idea what the political ramifications of an impeachment will ultimately be. The hearings will be watched by millions and I expect a lot of people’s minds will be changed as they review the details of what Trump has done. 

But even if you’re right, I’ve reached the conclusion that the impeachment is worth the risk of 4 more years of Trump. 

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9 minutes ago, Lutherman2112 said:

Hi, TIm. I've had you on ignore for years.

Please do everyone a favor, just go away for a few months. Take a break. Focus on your family.

You are a wishey washey individual that doesn't hold a single belief longer than a few posts.

Please do everyone a favor and just shut up.

tim’s got the thickest skin on the board, but your post falls short of excellence.

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33 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Sometimes simple logic needs to hit me in the face, and until it does I lack clarity. Often I’m late to the party; a lot of other people see stuff clearly before I do. 

This is one of those cases. Senator Elizabeth Warren gave a speech last night, which I heard today, that made things clear to me in a way that they hadn’t been before (through no one’s fault but my own.) Here is what she said that gave me clarity: 

When I read the Mueller Report, there were 3 points that I could not escape: 

Point #1 is that a foreign power, Russia, interfered in our election of 2016 with the direct purpose of getting Donald Trump elected President of the United States. 

Point #2 is that Donald Trump welcomed the aid and interference of the foreign power, Russia, in helping him to win the election. 

Point #3 is that when Congress and the Justice Department attempted to examine and investigate  the Russian interference, Donald Trump as President did everything he could to impede, block, prevent, and interfere with the investigation, and obstructed justice to do so. 

She went on to assert that if Trump weren’t President he’d be in handcuffs right now; that’s a bit of hyperbole IMO. But it doesn’t matter. It’s the part I quoted that gave me the epiphany. I’ve been wrong. For the sake of our country’s integrity, for the sake of the rule of law, Trump needs to be impeached. The fact that he very likely won’t be removed doesn’t matter. The fact that a lot of Americans don’t want this doesn’t matter. The fact that it might even help Trump get re-elected doesn’t matter. We need to show our grandchildren that some of us were willing to stand up and do the right thing. 

Wow just wow who would of thought you would change your mind!!

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I post a lot, obviously. It doesn’t distract from anything else I’m doing. I’m in my car a lot, waiting for real estate appointments. (Right now I’m waiting for food.) 

Most of my dumbest posts are while I’m waiting for food or in a hurry or had a couple beers.  Such is life 

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1 minute ago, urbanhack said:

Do you have one of those extra large phones?

Yeah. Because I like to read books on my phone (Kindle) 

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Just now, timschochet said:

So- does anyone want to address what Warren said? If you disagree with her, why? 

Sure.  Points 2 and 3 are completely false.

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14 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Yeah. Because I like to read books on my phone (Kindle) 

I’m calling bs here , how do you read on your phone with 132,383 posts. Wouldn’t even have time to read Bazooka Joe or Pud never mind a book

Edited by HellToupee
Edited because Tim upped his posts from 132,382 to 132,383
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46 minutes ago, timschochet said:

If you mean would he be removed? I doubt it. There is always the possibility that public hearings will change peoples minds but enough Republicans support him so that he will almost certainly win any Senate vote. 

However, if I broaden your question to encompass history, then I think it will be successful, because it will show that some of us weren’t willing to let the rule of law go down. 

I agree with first paragraph but 2nd how would it relate or compare to bill clinton.   

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2 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:

Sure.  Points 2 and 3 are completely false.

You saying points 2 and 3 are completely false is completely false.

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12 minutes ago, stlrams said:

I agree with first paragraph but 2nd how would it relate or compare to bill clinton.   

Bill Clinton lied under oath about sexual relations. He was impeached though not removed and had his law license taken away. He lives under a cloud that will remain with his legacy. I think that’s a proper result. 

What Trump has done is far more serious IMO. 

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11 minutes ago, timschochet said:

So- does anyone want to address what Warren said? If you disagree with her, why? 

What I don't understand is why Warren needs to address this at all in a public speech.

If she has a problem with how Pelosi is handling it, then Warren and the rest of the Democratic leadership should get their act together behind closed doors. Then come forth with a unified public decision so we can all move on. The speech screams party dysfunctionality.

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12 minutes ago, dozer said:

You saying points 2 and 3 are completely false is completely false.

I feel like a battle of falsehoods is missing someone

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14 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:

Sure.  Points 2 and 3 are completely false.

I’m not surprised having read your posts on the subject. But it seems to me that you either haven’t read the Mueller report or else you’re really stretching your interpretation of it in order to satisfy your partisan needs. 

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1 minute ago, PhantomJB said:

What I don't understand is why Warren needs to address this at all in a public speech.

If she has a problem with how Pelosi is handling it, then Warren and the rest of the Democratic leadership should get their act together behind closed doors. Then come forth with a unified public decision so we can all move on. The speech screams party dysfunctionality.

That’s an interesting point but it doesn’t really address the validity of her comments. 

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Bill Clinton lied under oath about sexual relations. He was impeached though not removed and had his law license taken away. He lives under a cloud that will remain with his legacy. I think that’s a proper result. 

What Trump has done is far more serious IMO. 

NO ####!!  Is this not common knowledge?

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17 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

I’m calling bs here , how do you read on your phone with 132,382 posts. Wouldn’t even have time to read Bazooka Joe or Pud never mind a book

I’m currently reading 10 books on Kindle and listening to 10 additional books on Audible. 

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Just now, timschochet said:

I’m not surprised having read your posts on the subject. But it seems to me that you either haven’t read the Mueller report or else you’re really stretching your interpretation of it in order to satisfy your partisan needs. 

If Russia are you listening is your evidence for point 2 you are in trouble.  As for point 3, Trump waived executive priviledge and allowed everyone to testify and handed over thousands of documents Mueller's team asked for.  He went above and beyond what was required.  To say he stonewalled Mueller is a flat out lie.

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

I’m currently reading 10 books on Kindle and listening to 10 additional books on Audible. 

Wow. How many eyes and ears do you have to read and listen to all those at once?

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4 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Wow. How many eyes and ears do you have to read and listen to all those at once?

Remember..Tim has a tendency to embellish 

Edited by supermike80

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2 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Wow. How many eyes and ears do you have to read and listen to all those at once?

I read or listen to a chapter and go on to the next one

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

That’s an interesting point but it doesn’t really address the validity of her comments. 

If you put it that way then Warren's points have no validity whatsoever. Just more Trump-bashing hot air. Pelosi is all that matters.

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Just now, KCitons said:

Wow. How many eyes and ears do you have to read and listen to all those at once?

It's like watching multiple Netflix shows in the same week. That's crazy talk!

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Just now, PhantomJB said:

If you put it that way then Warren's points have no validity whatsoever. Just more Trump-bashing hot air. Pelosi is all that matters.

Ok. I found them compelling. 

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5 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:

If Russia are you listening is your evidence for point 2 you are in trouble.  As for point 3, Trump waived executive priviledge and allowed everyone to testify and handed over thousands of documents Mueller's team asked for.  He went above and beyond what was required.  To say he stonewalled Mueller is a flat out lie.

You’re repeating what Trump’s people have said. The report says something quite different. 

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5 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Bill Clinton lied under oath about sexual relations. He was impeached though not removed and had his law license taken away. He lives under a cloud that will remain with his legacy. I think that’s a proper result. 

What Trump has done is far more serious IMO. 

Trump viewed in negative light based on his tweets etc. Time might tell but I totally disagree that Clinton gets a pass because the economy was good which had nothing to do with him.  

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

You’re repeating what Trump’s people have said. The report says something quite different. 

Further evidence you haven't read the report

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6 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:

If Russia are you listening is your evidence for point 2 you are in trouble.  As for point 3, Trump waived executive priviledge and allowed everyone to testify and handed over thousands of documents Mueller's team asked for.  He went above and beyond what was required.  To say he stonewalled Mueller is a flat out lie.

His written answers to Mueller’s questions (which is disappointing in the first place, that he didn’t sit for an interview) are mostly some variation of “I don’t recall.” He flat out did stonewall Mueller. In fact, in the report Mueller essentially tosses away most of those answers, explicitly noting that they were of so little value because Trump did not provide substantive responses.

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

Ok. I found them compelling. 

I've felt for some time that Trump committed an impeachable offense...so Warren's words bring forth no new info IMO. I defer to Pelosi knowing more about the process and trust her judgment won't be overly influenced by election politics. Warren is trying to win an election.

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6 minutes ago, Mister CIA said:

It's like watching multiple Netflix shows in the same week. That's crazy talk!

Based on his comment of "currently" reading and listening to 20 books, it's more like watching multiple Netflix shows at the same time. 

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1 minute ago, pecorino said:

His written answers to Mueller’s questions (which is disappointing in the first place, that he didn’t sit for an interview) are mostly some variation of “I don’t recall.” He flat out did stonewall Mueller. In fact, in the report Mueller essentially tosses away most of those answers, explicitly noting that they were of so little value because Trump did not provide substantive responses.

Yes, his answers are the only thing he stonewalled Mueller on.  You are correct.  I think everyone knows why he did this as Mueller was just looking for a perjury trap and Trump followed the advice of his attorneys.

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2 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:

Yes, his answers are the only thing he stonewalled Mueller on.  You are correct.  I think everyone knows why he did this as Mueller was just looking for a perjury trap and Trump followed the advice of his attorneys.

My take is that Mueller was just looking for the truth.

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15 minutes ago, Mister CIA said:

It's like watching multiple Netflix shows in the same week. That's crazy talk!

Actually it is. I watch 10 shows at a time. Watch an episode, go to the next one. (Actually 9 shows plus one movie). 

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29 minutes ago, timschochet said:

You’re repeating what Trump’s people have said. 

That's where we've been now for the past few weeks.

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Maybe Tim is on the leading edge...

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/12/amazon-billionaire-jeff-bezos-explains-why-the-smartest-people-change-their-minds-often.html

“Bezos went on to explain that the smartest people he’s observed were always “revising their understanding, reconsidering a problem they thought they’d already solved. They’re open to new points of view, new information, new ideas, contradictions, and challenges to their own way of thinking,” Fried recalls.

In short, smart people (a.k.a. those who are “right a lot”), change their minds — a lot.”

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