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rockaction

Fact: Democratic Presidents Started and Escalated The Vietnam War. Is This A Classy Title?

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Was Goldwater's lack of response to "Daisy" a classy move, or just harebrained?

 

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It’s absolutely true. In reading up about D-Day this week I was struck by Eisenhower’s reluctance to get involved in Vietnam after Dienbienphu and the wisdom he expressed about a quagmire in Indochina. 

That being said- when LBJ committed military forces to Vietnam after the Gulf of Tonkin, he was enforcing a conservative view of how to fight the Cold War, not a liberal one. The liberal viewpoint, as expounded by Eisenhower and JFK was to contain communism in Europe, but allow Aisa and the 3rd world to go its own way, recognizing the fact that Russia did not control events. The conservative viewpoint, first expounded by John Foster Dulles, was that Russia was behind all Communist insurgencies and thus it had to be met and stopped everywhere, a world wide expansion of George Kennan’s original ideas of containment. Though a Democrat, LBJ fully subscribed to this conservative doctrine, as did Robert McNamara. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

It’s absolutely true. In reading up about D-Day this week I was struck by Eisenhower’s reluctance to get involved in Vietnam after Dienbienphu and the wisdom he expressed about a quagmire in Indochina. 

That being said- when LBJ committed military forces to Vietnam after the Gulf of Tonkin, he was enforcing a conservative view of how to fight the Cold War, not a liberal one. The liberal viewpoint, as expounded by Eisenhower and JFK was to contain communism in Europe, but allow Aisa and the 3rd world to go its own way, recognizing the fact that Russia did not control events. The conservative viewpoint, first expounded by John Foster Dulles, was that Russia was behind all Communist insurgencies and thus it had to be met and stopped everywhere, a world wide expansion of George Kennan’s original ideas of containment. Though a Democrat, LBJ fully subscribed to this conservative doctrine, as did Robert McNamara. 

Tim, why do you give him attention?

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5 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Was Goldwater's lack of response to "Daisy" a classy move, or just harebrained?

 

He didn’t even know about it. 

The Daisy ad is one of the biggest revisionist stories In American history. It only ran once and had no effect on the election, Goldwater was already sunk in the polls. The story about the ad was created years later in order to boost the power of television advertising. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

It’s absolutely true. In reading up about D-Day this week I was struck by Eisenhower’s reluctance to get involved in Vietnam after Dienbienphu and the wisdom he expressed about a quagmire in Indochina. 

That being said- when LBJ committed military forces to Vietnam after the Gulf of Tonkin, he was enforcing a conservative view of how to fight the Cold War, not a liberal one. The liberal viewpoint, as expounded by Eisenhower and JFK was to contain communism in Europe, but allow Aisa and the 3rd world to go its own way, recognizing the fact that Russia did not control events. The conservative viewpoint, first expounded by John Foster Dulles, was that Russia was behind all Communist insurgencies and thus it had to be met and stopped everywhere, a world wide expansion of George Kennan’s original ideas of containment. Though a Democrat, LBJ fully subscribed to this conservative doctrine, as did Robert McNamara. 

This is true. It's exactly on point. It's one faction of one's party being used to tar the whole party with a broad brush, much like in the LA case about marriage, where Republicans and conservatives introduced an amendment to actually raise the minimum age of prospective legislation, to be met with objections within their own party.

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Just now, [scooter] said:

Tim, why do you give him attention?

Because he’s smart, because I like him, but most importantly because the subject matter interests me. 

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Just now, rockaction said:

This is true. It's exactly on point. It's one faction of one's party being used to tar the whole party with a broad brush, much like in the LA case about marriage, where Republicans and conservatives introduced an amendment to actually raise the minimum age of prospective legislation, to be met with objections within their own party.

Well honestly I don’t see the analogy there. 

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I knew that about Daisy, but it was the discussion, or to paraphrase Boorstin, "the media event about the media event" that caused the ad to be effective. 

From Wiki:

Broadcast and impact

"Daisy" aired only once, during a September 7, 1964, telecast of David and Bathsheba on The NBC Monday Movie. Johnson's campaign was widely criticized for using the prospect of nuclear war, as well as for the implication that Goldwater would start one, to frighten voters. The ad was immediately pulled, but the point was made, appearing on the nightly news and on conversation programs in its entirety. Jack Valenti, who served as a special assistant to Johnson, later suggested that pulling the ad was a calculated move, arguing that "it showed a certain gallantry on the part of the Johnson campaign to withdraw the ad."[12] Johnson's line "We must either love each other, or we must die" echoes W. H. Auden's poem "September 1, 1939" in which line 88 reads, "We must love one another or die." The words "children" and "the dark" also occur in Auden's poem.

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Just now, rockaction said:

I knew that about Daisy, but it was the discussion, or to paraphrase Boorstin, "the media event about the media event" that caused the ad to be effective. 

From Wiki:

Broadcast and impact

"Daisy" aired only once, during a September 7, 1964, telecast of David and Bathsheba on The NBC Monday Movie. Johnson's campaign was widely criticized for using the prospect of nuclear war, as well as for the implication that Goldwater would start one, to frighten voters. The ad was immediately pulled, but the point was made, appearing on the nightly news and on conversation programs in its entirety. Jack Valenti, who served as a special assistant to Johnson, later suggested that pulling the ad was a calculated move, arguing that "it showed a certain gallantry on the part of the Johnson campaign to withdraw the ad."[12] Johnson's line "We must either love each other, or we must die" echoes W. H. Auden's poem "September 1, 1939" in which line 88 reads, "We must love one another or die." The words "children" and "the dark" also occur in Auden's poem.

The election was decided the day that JFK was shot. There was no chance LBJ wouldn’t win. That’s why Goldwater won the nomination in the first place, as a sop to the conservative base. 

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The Vietnam war was started by Ho Chi Minh and North Vietnam. That would seem to be obvious to everyone except (some?) Americans, apparently.

The American entrance to the intraVietnam war was presided by Democratic Party presidents, which is equally uncontroversial, even for Americans

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2 minutes ago, msommer said:

The Vietnam war was started by Ho Chi Minh and North Vietnam.

It was indeed a war of northern aggression. 

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1 minute ago, msommer said:

The Vietnam war was started by Ho Chi Minh and North Vietnam. That would seem to be obvious to everyone except (some?) Americans, apparently.

The American entrance to the intraVietnam war was presided by Democratic Party presidents, which is equally uncontroversial, even for Americans

For whatever reason, history formerly records the Vietnam War as beginning with the Gulf of Tonkin. The other conflicts from 1945-1954 and from 1959-1964 have different names. It is true that some modern historians now treat it as one long struggle from 1945-1975, but that’s not traditional. 

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Just now, timschochet said:

For whatever reason, history formerly records the Vietnam War as beginning with the Gulf of Tonkin. The other conflicts from 1945-1954 and from 1959-1964 have different names. It is true that some modern historians now treat it as one long struggle from 1945-1975, but that’s not traditional. 

It will be, because it is the most logical way to describe it

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Just now, msommer said:

It will be, because it is the most logical way to describe it

Maybe, but don’t forget Churchill attempted to rebrand World Wars I and II as one long New 30 year war. It didn’t take. 

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LBJ was a hardball type of guy. 

On truth and advertising, from Wiki:

The attack ad was designed to capitalize on these comments. It was not the only ad developed at this time, though it is the best-remembered. One was called "Girl with Ice Cream Cone", and it also talked about the risk of nuclear proliferation. Another was called "KKK for Goldwater", and it portrayed Goldwater as being racist, by noting that Alabama KKK leader Robert Creel supported him, and "Confessions of a Republican" also noted the KKK ties. Another notable ad of the Johnson campaign, "Eastern Seaboard", took aim at Goldwater's statement: "Sometimes I think this country would be better off if we could just saw off the eastern seaboard and let it float out to sea." Bob Mann, author of Daisy Petals and Mushroom Clouds: LBJ, Barry Goldwater and the Ad That Changed American Politics, wrote: "were it not for the 'Daisy Girl' spot, 'Eastern Seaboard' might today be considered the most effective presidential attack ad."

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Goldwater's hyperbole wasn't exactly wrong if you're a Republican political strategist, save for the Carolinas and Florida these days.

Eastern Seaboard

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Just now, rockaction said:

LBJ was a hardball type of guy. 

On truth and advertising, from Wiki:

The attack ad was designed to capitalize on these comments. It was not the only ad developed at this time, though it is the best-remembered. One was called "Girl with Ice Cream Cone", and it also talked about the risk of nuclear proliferation. Another was called "KKK for Goldwater", and it portrayed Goldwater as being racist, by noting that Alabama KKK leader Robert Creel supported him, and "Confessions of a Republican" also noted the KKK ties. Another notable ad of the Johnson campaign, "Eastern Seaboard", took aim at Goldwater's statement: "Sometimes I think this country would be better off if we could just saw off the eastern seaboard and let it float out to sea." Bob Mann, author of Daisy Petals and Mushroom Clouds: LBJ, Barry Goldwater and the Ad That Changed American Politics, wrote: "were it not for the 'Daisy Girl' spot, 'Eastern Seaboard' might today be considered the most effective presidential attack ad."

LBJ was absolutely ruthless and corrupt, but I seriously doubt he had anything to do with that ad. 

If you ever want to read how corrupt LBJ was, read Robert Cano’s first volume of his biography, which describes his run for Senate in 1948. Just brutal. Makes Nixon and Trump look honest. 

This is interesting to me because Doris Kearns Goodwin, a writer I normally like, has just written a new book and apparently part of it lionizes LBJ for his achievements in the area of civil rights. I’m looking forward to reading that as I agree he deserves praise in that area, but I’ll be curious to see how she views him overall since he really was not a good guy. 

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1 minute ago, rockaction said:

Goldwater's hyperbole wasn't exactly wrong if you're a Republican political strategist, save for the Carolinas and Florida these days.

Eastern Seaboard

Personal story from my dad, who is a lifetime liberal. Barry Goldwater is the most honest man he ever met. I can’t remember all the details (something to do with Carnation ice cream) but years ago my dad witnessed Goldwater turn down a bribe and some unethical proposals. Quite a contrast to LBJ. 

Goldwater was a true libertarian, a man of high principle, an early promoter of gay rights (he famously said he didn’t care if a soldier was straight, only if he shoots straight), a hater of social conservatism and any and all corruption. He is the man most responsible for forcing Nixon, whom he despised, to resign. He would have thrown up at the choice presented by the election of 2016 and the current state of the Republican Party would have made him resign from it, no question in my mind. 

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6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Goldwater was a true libertarian, a man of high principle

They only say it when you're gone, or when you're switching parties. In one instance, when you're gone, they'll wonder where the likes of you went. In the other, they don't respect you anyway. You're the useful idiot. And while you're alive, if you haven't switched parties or condemned your own, they'll tar and feather you in the media. It happens to true conservatives/libertarians all the time and allows for someone like Trump to appeal to the basest instincts of lots of people so jaded by this cycle or set of circumstances they don't care anymore what the President says or what he does, so long as he delivers appointments and policy.

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I do think this is interesting and I also wonder what it means that Bush started Iraq & Afghanistan and that Trump has Bolton as NSA.

Gulf of Tonkin doesn’t get enough attention IMO.

Don’t forget McKinley & pre-modern folks in this tally either please. That’s not really about the GOP, it’s about the parties and shifting ideologies.

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4 minutes ago, rockaction said:

They only say it when you're gone, or when you're switching parties. In one instance, when you're gone, they'll wonder where the likes of you went. In the other, they don't respect you anyway. You're the useful idiot. And while you're alive, if you haven't switched parties or condemned your own, they'll tar and feather you in the media. It happens to true conservatives/libertarians all the time and allows for someone like Trump to appeal to the basest instincts of lots of people so jaded by this cycle or set of circumstances they don't care anymore what the President says or what he does, so long as he delivers appointments and policy.

I get your frustration here. But you should realize that if Goldwater read what you wrote here he would just chuckle and say “who cares what they think?” 

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People can complain about the NIE, I certainly do, but I dare you to do the same analysis on Tonkin. Good luck.

It bothers me that ‘messin with intelligence’ has been a thing since the Maine and what have we done to fix that in 100+ years? There have been reforms but despite these firewalls Trump continues to do it today. I’d ***like to blame Trump for that and I do but just like Bush & LBJ where’s the real fix besides impeachment? There is none. To permit it is to join in it.

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59 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I get your frustration here. But you should realize that if Goldwater read what you wrote here he would just chuckle and say “who cares what they think?” 

I think after the serious drubbing he took in 1964, Goldwater would care if he wasn't from AZ.

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