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Footballguy
Discuss.
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Tim, why do you give him attention?It’s absolutely true. In reading up about D-Day this week I was struck by Eisenhower’s reluctance to get involved in Vietnam after Dienbienphu and the wisdom he expressed about a quagmire in Indochina.
That being said- when LBJ committed military forces to Vietnam after the Gulf of Tonkin, he was enforcing a conservative view of how to fight the Cold War, not a liberal one. The liberal viewpoint, as expounded by Eisenhower and JFK was to contain communism in Europe, but allow Aisa and the 3rd world to go its own way, recognizing the fact that Russia did not control events. The conservative viewpoint, first expounded by John Foster Dulles, was that Russia was behind all Communist insurgencies and thus it had to be met and stopped everywhere, a world wide expansion of George Kennan’s original ideas of containment. Though a Democrat, LBJ fully subscribed to this conservative doctrine, as did Robert McNamara.
He didn’t even know about it.Was Goldwater's lack of response to "Daisy" a classy move, or just harebrained?
This is true. It's exactly on point. It's one faction of one's party being used to tar the whole party with a broad brush, much like in the LA case about marriage, where Republicans and conservatives introduced an amendment to actually raise the minimum age of prospective legislation, to be met with objections within their own party.It’s absolutely true. In reading up about D-Day this week I was struck by Eisenhower’s reluctance to get involved in Vietnam after Dienbienphu and the wisdom he expressed about a quagmire in Indochina.
That being said- when LBJ committed military forces to Vietnam after the Gulf of Tonkin, he was enforcing a conservative view of how to fight the Cold War, not a liberal one. The liberal viewpoint, as expounded by Eisenhower and JFK was to contain communism in Europe, but allow Aisa and the 3rd world to go its own way, recognizing the fact that Russia did not control events. The conservative viewpoint, first expounded by John Foster Dulles, was that Russia was behind all Communist insurgencies and thus it had to be met and stopped everywhere, a world wide expansion of George Kennan’s original ideas of containment. Though a Democrat, LBJ fully subscribed to this conservative doctrine, as did Robert McNamara.
Because he’s smart, because I like him, but most importantly because the subject matter interests me.Tim, why do you give him attention?
Well honestly I don’t see the analogy there.This is true. It's exactly on point. It's one faction of one's party being used to tar the whole party with a broad brush, much like in the LA case about marriage, where Republicans and conservatives introduced an amendment to actually raise the minimum age of prospective legislation, to be met with objections within their own party.
The election was decided the day that JFK was shot. There was no chance LBJ wouldn’t win. That’s why Goldwater won the nomination in the first place, as a sop to the conservative base.I knew that about Daisy, but it was the discussion, or to paraphrase Boorstin, "the media event about the media event" that caused the ad to be effective.
From Wiki:
Broadcast and impact
"Daisy" aired only once, during a September 7, 1964, telecast of David and Bathsheba on The NBC Monday Movie. Johnson's campaign was widely criticized for using the prospect of nuclear war, as well as for the implication that Goldwater would start one, to frighten voters. The ad was immediately pulled, but the point was made, appearing on the nightly news and on conversation programs in its entirety. Jack Valenti, who served as a special assistant to Johnson, later suggested that pulling the ad was a calculated move, arguing that "it showed a certain gallantry on the part of the Johnson campaign to withdraw the ad."[12] Johnson's line "We must either love each other, or we must die" echoes W. H. Auden's poem "September 1, 1939" in which line 88 reads, "We must love one another or die." The words "children" and "the dark" also occur in Auden's poem.
It was indeed a war of northern aggression.The Vietnam war was started by Ho Chi Minh and North Vietnam.
For whatever reason, history formerly records the Vietnam War as beginning with the Gulf of Tonkin. The other conflicts from 1945-1954 and from 1959-1964 have different names. It is true that some modern historians now treat it as one long struggle from 1945-1975, but that’s not traditional.The Vietnam war was started by Ho Chi Minh and North Vietnam. That would seem to be obvious to everyone except (some?) Americans, apparently.
The American entrance to the intraVietnam war was presided by Democratic Party presidents, which is equally uncontroversial, even for Americans
It will be, because it is the most logical way to describe itFor whatever reason, history formerly records the Vietnam War as beginning with the Gulf of Tonkin. The other conflicts from 1945-1954 and from 1959-1964 have different names. It is true that some modern historians now treat it as one long struggle from 1945-1975, but that’s not traditional.
Maybe, but don’t forget Churchill attempted to rebrand World Wars I and II as one long New 30 year war. It didn’t take.It will be, because it is the most logical way to describe it
LBJ was absolutely ruthless and corrupt, but I seriously doubt he had anything to do with that ad.LBJ was a hardball type of guy.
On truth and advertising, from Wiki:
The attack ad was designed to capitalize on these comments. It was not the only ad developed at this time, though it is the best-remembered. One was called "Girl with Ice Cream Cone", and it also talked about the risk of nuclear proliferation. Another was called "KKK for Goldwater", and it portrayed Goldwater as being racist, by noting that Alabama KKK leader Robert Creel supported him, and "Confessions of a Republican" also noted the KKK ties. Another notable ad of the Johnson campaign, "Eastern Seaboard", took aim at Goldwater's statement: "Sometimes I think this country would be better off if we could just saw off the eastern seaboard and let it float out to sea." Bob Mann, author of Daisy Petals and Mushroom Clouds: LBJ, Barry Goldwater and the Ad That Changed American Politics, wrote: "were it not for the 'Daisy Girl' spot, 'Eastern Seaboard' might today be considered the most effective presidential attack ad."
Personal story from my dad, who is a lifetime liberal. Barry Goldwater is the most honest man he ever met. I can’t remember all the details (something to do with Carnation ice cream) but years ago my dad witnessed Goldwater turn down a bribe and some unethical proposals. Quite a contrast to LBJ.Goldwater's hyperbole wasn't exactly wrong if you're a Republican political strategist, save for the Carolinas and Florida these days.
Eastern Seaboard
They only say it when you're gone, or when you're switching parties. In one instance, when you're gone, they'll wonder where the likes of you went. In the other, they don't respect you anyway. You're the useful idiot. And while you're alive, if you haven't switched parties or condemned your own, they'll tar and feather you in the media. It happens to true conservatives/libertarians all the time and allows for someone like Trump to appeal to the basest instincts of lots of people so jaded by this cycle or set of circumstances they don't care anymore what the President says or what he does, so long as he delivers appointments and policy.Goldwater was a true libertarian, a man of high principle
I get your frustration here. But you should realize that if Goldwater read what you wrote here he would just chuckle and say “who cares what they think?”They only say it when you're gone, or when you're switching parties. In one instance, when you're gone, they'll wonder where the likes of you went. In the other, they don't respect you anyway. You're the useful idiot. And while you're alive, if you haven't switched parties or condemned your own, they'll tar and feather you in the media. It happens to true conservatives/libertarians all the time and allows for someone like Trump to appeal to the basest instincts of lots of people so jaded by this cycle or set of circumstances they don't care anymore what the President says or what he does, so long as he delivers appointments and policy.
I think after the serious drubbing he took in 1964, Goldwater would care if he wasn't from AZ.I get your frustration here. But you should realize that if Goldwater read what you wrote here he would just chuckle and say “who cares what they think?”