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2019-20 NBA Thread: new forum, same great taste (6 Viewers)

Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn

Lakers are trying to expand Anthony Davis trade and create ability to open max salary slot on July 6, sources tell @BobbyMarks42 and me. Lakers offering contracts of Mo Wagner/Jemerrio Jones/Isaac Bonga to additional teams, so LA can satisfy CBA rules on creating $32M in space.

7:04 PM · Jun 18, 2019

 
Anarchy99 said:
Is it really Ainge's fault that no true superstar wants to play in Boston? They have not been able to get a marquee player sign as a free agent, and any top tier player has indicated he wouldn't re-sign there if acquired by trade. Bottom line, in today's NBA you can't win without a Top 5-ish player and the Celtics can't get one.

Most recently, what good would it have done if they traded say Tatum, Brown, Smart and 3 first round picks to the Pelicans for Davis? It's doubtful Kyrie would have stuck around. They wouldn't have won anything, AD wouldn't have stayed, and they would have to start completely over next year. Who knows, maybe that is better than being stuck in no man's land, but in this case I don't really think Ainge should have pulled the trigger on Davis.

The real killer for Boston was signing Horford and Hayward to max deals, as neither one was really worthy of that kind of money. Hayward getting hurt didn't help any.

Lots of teams don't have Top 5 players, so most of the league is in the same boat. Realistically, how many teams have a legit chance to win?
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I know modogg already beat you up for this but HOLY #### does this need more calling out for your attempt at revising history. 

 
i do wonder what the ceiling of that team would be if it were LeBron, AD and Kawhi, though.  Regardless of what they put around them, could they make the finals?

 
Capella said:
How many GMs would have screwed this up worse than Ainge? Can’t be many. 
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He did put himself into position to have something to screw up in the first place. Have to give him a little credit for that - right? Then again, you didn't have to be a super genius to pull the trigger on the Nets deal for the aged vets.

 
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jvdesigns2002 said:
People slam the Lakers for grabbing those two guys both at #2---but if the Lakers didn't take either of those guys there--other teams would have taken both of those guys shortly after.  The jibberish about how the Lakers somehow managed to "screw" those picks up is largely unwarranted. Those players were both going to go early regardless of if the Lakers took them. 
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Just because lots of other people were wrong, doesn't make the Lakers right. 

 
Gr00vus said:
He did put himself into position to have something to screw up in the first place. Have to give him a little credit for that - right? Then again, you didn't have to be a super genius to pull the trigger on the Nets deal for the aged vets.
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At this time last year he looked like the GM of a stacked team that just missed the Finals with their star player on the bench injured.  Not to mention also having one of the best, young head coaches and future commodities.  He also got a a major free agent to sign with Boston multiple times.

The Celtics still have that great head coach with young talent like Tatum and Brown and solid vets like Hayward and Smart.  Add in some nice roster depth and three 1st round picks to work with, and I think Danny Ainge is doing just fine.

The Celtics didn't turn into Championship favorites, but not every roster upswing will result in a Finals appearance.  Those counting out Ainge appear to be doing so a bit prematurely.

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
Ingram and Ball were not "ESPN" mock draft picks.   They were both consensus picks to go very early in the draft.  Had either of them fallen a few spots in the draft--the vast majority of NBA teams would have absolutely taken them or traded up to have gotten them.   Both of those guys possess basketball intangibles that teams value when they draft. Both are tall and quick for their positions, both have court vision, both have length, both are very good defenders, both have solid handles for their positions--both just had definicies in shooting.  With practice---players can absolutely learn to shoot better. You cannot teach court vision, length and the heart to be a great defender.  People like clowning those picks because it was the Lakers that made them.  Ignoring that fact is intellectually dishonest.  The person who made the statement clowning the Lakers for making those pics is a Nuggets fan.  Funny how he didn't mention the Nuggets picking Mudiaye over guys like Devin Booker and Myles Turner.   It's convenient to clown a team when thats what the bandwagon wants to do.   
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There is a gigantic difference between missing on the 7th pick once (Murray was the #7 pick the following year- they got that one right) and the #2 in back to back seasons. I mostly give them a pass on Ingram, but Ball was a reach IMO. His shot was so broken, he was not very quick laterally and never got to the basket, and his dad was such a cancer that there were plenty of people pushing him down their draft board. Even in this thread, people were all over the place on him. All of his weaknesses are probably at least as bad as advertised, while all of his strengths are probably better than advertised. 

 
trader jake said:
At this time last year he looked like the GM of a stacked team that just missed the Finals with their star player on the bench injured.  Not to mention also having one of the best, young head coaches and future commodities.  He also got a a major free agent to sign with Boston multiple times.

The Celtics still have that great head coach with young talent like Tatum and Brown and solid vets like Hayward and Smart.  Add in some nice roster depth and three 1st round picks to work with, and I think Danny Ainge is doing just fine.

The Celtics didn't turn into Championship favorites, but not every roster upswing will result in a Finals appearance.  Those counting out Ainge appear to be doing so a bit prematurely.
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Hayward is an albatross my dude.

 
Kev4029 said:
There is a gigantic difference between missing on the 7th pick once (Murray was the #7 pick the following year- they got that one right) and the #2 in back to back seasons. I mostly give them a pass on Ingram, but Ball was a reach IMO. His shot was so broken, he was not very quick laterally and never got to the basket, and his dad was such a cancer that there were plenty of people pushing him down their draft board. Even in this thread, people were all over the place on him. All of his weaknesses are probably at least as bad as advertised, while all of his strengths are probably better than advertised. 
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Lonzo's strengths are not better than advertised. In is rookie year he was the 3rd best pg in the league in regards to defensive plus/minus.  His court vision is elite---and his handles are very solid.   If he can develop to be an even slightly below average shooter--his future in the NBA is very bright.  His only deficiency is that his offensive game has not evolved as quickly as many would have hoped.   

Ingram has all of the tools to be a great player. When he is healthy and motivated--he flashes brilliance. When the Lakers were battling injuries last year and he was healthy--he showed glimpses of what he can do.  People already claiming that Ball and Ingram as bonafide busts are just doing so to Laker hate.    Every team has had draft regrets--but the Lakers train of thought drafting those two guys was not as flawed as you and people here are making it out to be.  The Lakers also did a great job drafting Kuzma when they did.    They also got killed when they drafted D'angelo Russell--when if you look back--that was an excellent pick that was very unpopular at the time.     They also had one of the best draft triumphs when they traded away Vlade Divac for Kobe Bryant.   Let's not act like the Lakers are perennial terrible drafters.  The team was on top of the basketball world for decades.   Yeah--the last few seasons has been a transition period for them--but let's not paint them as if they have a history of being morons.   Most teams in the NBA would absolutely kill to have the track record that the Lakers have.  

Lets not forget that the Nuggets drafted both Donovan Mitchell and Rudy Gobert and effectively gave both away for nothing.  If you are calling Ingram and Ball horrid decisions--neither of those was as bad as giving away Mitchell and Gobert. 

 
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trader jake said:
At this time last year he looked like the GM of a stacked team that just missed the Finals with their star player on the bench injured.  Not to mention also having one of the best, young head coaches and future commodities.  He also got a a major free agent to sign with Boston multiple times.

The Celtics still have that great head coach with young talent like Tatum and Brown and solid vets like Hayward and Smart.  Add in some nice roster depth and three 1st round picks to work with, and I think Danny Ainge is doing just fine.

The Celtics didn't turn into Championship favorites, but not every roster upswing will result in a Finals appearance.  Those counting out Ainge appear to be doing so a bit prematurely.
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great head coach has become a little questionable. Great with the X's and O's, but jury is still out on the ability to handle different adult personalities. when you have teammates ready to throw down in a huddle something seems off. also got outcoached against Bucks in 2nd round this year.

and the roster you lay out is a good 5-7 seed in the East, if a lot of things go right. considering the gift trades the team got, to only leave all of those top picks and everything with just Tatum and Brown is very dissapointing.

agreed off-season is still young so maybe they have some moves we haven't seen yet. but if not, this has to be a huge failure top to bottom.

the fact your main cog is ready to jump ship so quick is very telling. Horford doesn't leave if Ainge and Stevens are as wonderful as the Boston media thinks. also think this points to the fact that Kyrie leaving isn't the answer for the Celtics either

 
elguapo07 said:
What do the Celtics do now?  14/20/22 doesn't excite me. Cs not in a good spot right now 
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Here's the thing - if Al's leaving, it ain't because someone's offering 4 yrs and the Celts only 3. It's because it aint working in Boston.

I started griping about the chemistry in Cappy's season thread since around the first of the year. Kyrie made a statement about how Maaaacus Smaaaat desrved to be in the starting lineup. They made the switch, sitting Brown i think, that night. Next day, Kyrie makes another statement about Timelord - 1st rd pick Robt Williams - getting more PT cuz he'd shown flashes on days when Horford rested them knees of his, and vvvvroomp, Timelord's minutes ENDED likat. You could tell by the overquick response starting Smart was response to Kyrie feeling he wasnt getting his due but then he overstepped for Timelord and got slapped down. I then started posting "Free Kyrie" cuz i knew he was gonna leave then - i even lobbied for him to be traded to the Knicks str8up for Dennis Smith Jr at the trade deadline after they got him from Dallas cuz i knew he was gone.

Horford quitting has me thinking this is all about Hayward & race. Hayward signed cuz he's a Stevens protege, has received every consideration because he was a fine player who had a horrible break and confidence was what he needed most. The mercurial Irving could have shaped it that the white boy got all the consideration but a gamer like Smart wasn't starting like he should. That's when Stevens decided or Ainge told Stevens to decide to start Marcus, but then Kyrie gets too big for his britches like players do and tried to boost Timelord, who would take time from who? White boys Baynes & Theis. This could be Kyrie playing or a real divide, but he mighta stirred that drink and it devolved from there.

That's the only scenario i can think of for a well-loved player like Horford - who could never be appreciated anywhere like he was in Boston - to opt opt so quick & so ghostfully.

If that's the case, i hope the Celts draft well, match Rozier if its not too high or he's not another part of the Piss Army, and do little else (tho i'd like to see them bring New Englanders Kris Dunn & Noah Vonleh home, which can be cheaply done), cuz i think teams will be regretting maxing Allstars-but-not-superstars this summer as much as teams did signing depth players to $60mil contracts a few yrs ago and we really should see if there's more fallout from the '18-19 season to be dealt with before proceeding.

 
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wikkidpissah said:
the rumor mill has it that its already settled w someone (which they cant divulge for another 10 days, of course). 
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That’s a little curious because I don’t think he’d be the first choice for any team with major cap space.  But I could be wrong. I often am.

 
wikkidpissah said:
#LEPRECHARMA
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i do think the way the C's and Ainge treated the dismissal of IT has an effect. you still hear it mentioned and they could not cover that up enough how they used him when he was injured then threw him out as quick as they could

 
wikkidpissah said:
the rumor mill has it that its already settled w someone (which they cant divulge for another 10 days, of course). 
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So if the Celtics only make minor moves like bring in Kris Dunn and/or Vonleh then aside from being a 44 win team where do they stand from a cap standpoint. You think they sit tight and wait to spend in '20?

 
elguapo07 said:
So if the Celtics only make minor moves like bring in Kris Dunn and/or Vonleh then aside from being a 44 win team where do they stand from a cap standpoint. You think they sit tight and wait to spend in '20?
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i would. there are maybe 7-8 guys statistically worthy of 35%+ contracts and, by the end of this summer, there's gonna be 20some guys getting em. can't get out from under that, as the Wiz & Rockets can already tell you.

ETA: if the damage i worry about hasn't been done and Hayward is any semblance of what he used to be be, this is still the base of a winning team. if the damage has been done and it was about a white boy getting favored treatment in Boston, the Green aint seeing another FA signee til Lucky Charms is classified as a nutritional supplement.

 
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elguapo07 said:
So if the Celtics only make minor moves like bring in Kris Dunn and/or Vonleh then aside from being a 44 win team where do they stand from a cap standpoint. You think they sit tight and wait to spend in '20?
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the exodus from the team by Horford and Kyrie has t make you wonder if any players would come there through free agency. 

 
wikkidpissah said:
If that's the case, i hope the Celts draft well, match Rozier if its not too high or he's not another part of the Piss Army, and do little else (tho i'd like to see them bring New Englanders Kris Dunn & Noah Vonleh home, which can be cheaply done), cuz i think teams will be regretting maxing Allstars-but-not-superstars this summer as much as teams did signing depth players to $60mil contracts a few yrs ago and we really should see if there's more fallout from the '18-19 season to be dealt with before proceeding.
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The scenario of Horford and Kyrie leaving was mentioned a few days ago in this thread. IIRC, they would have about $20 million in cap space if they renounce Rozier, Morris and others. Don’t you think they should look for a higher impact signing?

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
Lonzo's strengths are not better than advertised. In is rookie year he was the 3rd best pg in the league in regards to defensive plus/minus.  His court vision is elite---and his handles are very solid.   If he can develop to be an even slightly below average shooter--his future in the NBA is very bright.  His only deficiency is that his offensive game has not evolved as quickly as many would have hoped.  
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You pretty much described Ricky Rubio.

 
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Juxtatarot said:
The scenario of Horford and Kyrie leaving was mentioned a few days ago in this thread. IIRC, they would have about $20 million in cap space if they renounce Rozier, Morris and others. Don’t you think they should look for a higher impact signing?
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my count has them with possibly up to $40mil to spend, but i'd say it's more important to see if the growth-stunting of Brown/Tatum was foundational or situational and whether Hayward is indeed a boondoggle before proceeding, especially when this offseason's FA market is almost certain to be noteworthy in b-ball history as a tulip hysteria

ETA: (per spotrac) - Hayward, 32.5, Smaaaat, 12.5, Tatum 8, Brown 6.5, Baynes 5.5, Dancing Bear 3, Timelord 2. total: $70 mil. cap: $109

Optional: Rozier, Theis, 3 mid-round draft picks $20 mil?

 
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Charlie Harper said:
You pretty much described Ricky Rubio.
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Ricky rubio does not have the length or defensive upside that Lonzo has.  I'm a huge Pacers fan--and I'm actually really bummed out that they are apparently targeting Rubio.  If I had to choose between Lonzo and Rubio at this point in time--give me Lonzo all day long.   The Lakers were an average defensive team with Lonzo--and they fell off of a cliff when he got hurt.  The Jazz nor the wolves did not suffer a huge defensive drop off when Rubio was off the court.  The only parallel between Lonzo and Rubio is that they both needed to improve their jumpshot early in their careers.   That I definitely agree with you on.  

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
Ricky rubio does not have the length or defensive upside that Lonzo has.  I'm a huge Pacers fan--and I'm actually really bummed out that they are apparently targeting Rubio.  If I had to choose between Lonzo and Rubio at this point in time--give me Lonzo all day long.   The Lakers were an average defensive team with Lonzo--and they fell off of a cliff when he got hurt.  The Jazz nor the wolves did not suffer a huge defensive drop off when Rubio was off the court.  The only parallel between Lonzo and Rubio is that they both needed to improve their jumpshot early in their careers.   That I definitely agree with you on.  
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So a slightly less useless Ricky Rubio is his ceiling?

I guess if you want my ultimate upside for Lonzo is Old Andre Igoudala - but sadly Iggy has a better offensive game then Lonzo. 

 
wikkidpissah said:
my count has them with possibly up to $40mil to spend, but i'd say it's more important to see if the growth-stunting of Brown/Tatum was foundational or situational and whether Hayward is indeed a boondoggle before proceeding, especially when this offseason's FA market is almost certain to be noteworthy in b-ball history as a tulip hysteria

ETA: (per spotrac) - Hayward, 32.5, Smaaaat, 12.5, Tatum 8, Brown 6.5, Baynes 5.5, Dancing Bear 3, Timelord 2. total: $70 mil. cap: $109

Optional: Rozier, Theis, 3 mid-round draft picks $20 mil?
Click to expand...
Here is what I get renouncing everyone. $28 million.  That’s almost max. They got to explore using that IMO. 

 
wikkidpissah said:
my count has them with possibly up to $40mil to spend, but i'd say it's more important to see if the growth-stunting of Brown/Tatum was foundational or situational and whether Hayward is indeed a boondoggle before proceeding, especially when this offseason's FA market is almost certain to be noteworthy in b-ball history as a tulip hysteria

ETA: (per spotrac) - Hayward, 32.5, Smaaaat, 12.5, Tatum 8, Brown 6.5, Baynes 5.5, Dancing Bear 3, Timelord 2. total: $70 mil. cap: $109

Optional: Rozier, Theis, 3 mid-round draft picks $20 mil?
Click to expand...
Capulator says they would have $28.5MM to spend if they renounce every possible FA - that number includes the cap holds for the 3 firsts (roughly $8.4MM total) and two minimum roster charges ($1.8MM total). Put Rozier's cap hold back on the books and yeah, you're looking at around $19MM of space.

 
wikkidpissah said:
my count has them with possibly up to $40mil to spend, but i'd say it's more important to see if the growth-stunting of Brown/Tatum was foundational or situational and whether Hayward is indeed a boondoggle before proceeding, especially when this offseason's FA market is almost certain to be noteworthy in b-ball history as a tulip hysteria
Click to expand...
Boston's could create just under $28 million with Horford's opt-out and renouncing Morris and Rozier. They could create just over $34 million in space by trading completely out of this year's draft (doubtful) and waiving Semi Ojeleye (saves 700K). Realistically, they have $30 million to spend if they don't keep Morris and Rozier but it sounds like Ainge wants them both back.

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
Ricky rubio does not have the length or defensive upside that Lonzo has.  I'm a huge Pacers fan--and I'm actually really bummed out that they are apparently targeting Rubio.  If I had to choose between Lonzo and Rubio at this point in time--give me Lonzo all day long.   The Lakers were an average defensive team with Lonzo--and they fell off of a cliff when he got hurt.  The Jazz nor the wolves did not suffer a huge defensive drop off when Rubio was off the court.  The only parallel between Lonzo and Rubio is that they both needed to improve their jumpshot early in their careers.   That I definitely agree with you on.  
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Pacers fan? I’ve been really curious what they’ll do with their potential cap space and all their free agents.  Who do you expect will be staying and going? 

 
Could you imagine actually being an NBA GM right now? How exciting and terrifying....endless possibilities to do something great or screw it all up.

 
Juxtatarot said:
Here is what I get renouncing everyone. $28 million.  That’s almost max. They got to explore using that IMO. 
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i only see 70mil in commitments there, too, but whatever.

Scary Terry will cost about the same as Smart did. They need someone on the ball. Otherwise, i wanna see how this team plays, whether there was damage from perceptions of racism/Kyrie drink-stirring, whether there's growth in the Jays, whether Gordo's leg & confidence knit, whether Timelord is a post presence and i'm in no mood to wade out into Supermax hysteria

No one wants to fault Traitor Danny, cause of Leprecharma, more than i, but i dont. except for a technicality, Uncle Drew & the Brow would be wearing the Green today and y'all would be shaking in your boots. no one could know that Irving had Borderline Personality Disorder two years ago and the most Danny can be found guilty of is insensitivity toward basketball hero IT4 and wanting to remount his Garnett/Pierce/Allen triumph of a decade ago.

 
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