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Could Russian/Chinese hackers shut down our power grid? (1 Viewer)

Where are other hackers at with our grid?

  • Fully infiltrated - Could shut down now

    Votes: 13 18.8%

  • Well infiltrated - Control of some key systems - could badly disrupt, or take full control within ye

    Votes: 17 24.6%

  • Semi infiltrated - Are making headway - could disrupt - a long way off from full takedown

    Votes: 32 46.4%

  • Not infiltrated - Have little or no access to our grid and likely won’t anytime soon

    Votes: 7 10.1%
  • Total voters
    69
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Insoxicated
We are reportedly “aggressively probing” Russian power grid, including deploying malware that could allow us to take it over / shut it down if we wanted. Realistically if that’s what’s being reported, the truth is likely far more advanced. 

The question is, where do we think other nations are against us? Are the capable or close to capable of shutting down our power grid? 

 
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I think this probably falls under mutually assured destruction. Like nuclear weapons, I don't have any fear that any country who could actually get an attack here (although I guess I'd have to call Dennis Rodman to make sure where NK is) would actually do it because of how bad we'd mess them up in return.

It would be a terrorist group that would actually do something big like that in my totally uninformed opinion.

 
Ask Baltimore how their city's computers are doing (almost all blocked and shut by ransomware currently) and just know that it is only a matter of time before some random power company gets blocked.

 
I pimp the book “One Second After” all the time about an EMP strike against the US that gives what I think is a pretty realistic picture of how society would devolve quickly into a Lord of the Flies situation. I don’t think our power grid could handle anything like that so yea, I don’t think it would take much to humble the US. Our political heroes talk incessantly about improvements to our national infrastructure but it won’t happen until something catastrophic occurs. My option anyhow.

could the Russians or Chines do it? Probably. I’d bet heavy on the Chinese as they steal everything, not sure Russia has kept up but if we can do it, it’s a safe bet they can too.

 
We (the American people) have very little insight into what Russia's focus is.  However, knowing what we know about our power grid and infrastructure, if they aren't focused on it this moment, there's no question they could bring us to our knees in 6ish months with an increased focus.  I continue to be flabbergasted by how little our politicians know about technology and our current state.  

 
I'd put it at between semi and well infiltrated, I think it's probably about 2-5 years out from that ability.

 
Seems unlikely that Russia, China or the US would shut down one our power grids since the other country could likely just do it right back which would be exceptionally annoying for everyone. It’s more likely that this technology is used against a smaller and less advanced nation in advance of an invasion.

 
Ilov80s said:
Seems unlikely that Russia, China or the US would shut down one our power grids since the other country could likely just do it right back which would be exceptionally annoying for everyone. It’s more likely that this technology is used against a smaller and less advanced nation in advance of an invasion.
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We are MUCH further behind in our security of these things than they are.  It's not really close.  Not saying we couldn't get in eventually, but it would take a while.  And it's significantly more difficult to get in if they are actively watching and on alert.  The group who strikes first would have the easiest path to victory.

 
The Commish said:
We are MUCH further behind in our security of these things than they are.  It's not really close.  Not saying we couldn't get in eventually, but it would take a while.  And it's significantly more difficult to get in if they are actively watching and on alert.  The group who strikes first would have the easiest path to victory.
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Are we? That surprises me

 
Ilov80s said:
Are we? That surprises me
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As of three years ago, yes.  I haven't seen any shift of funding to move us towards cyber security that would advance our progress past it's current trajectory.  But, knowing that area, that might be by design.  That's from the attack perspective.  From the defense perspective, our problems stem, primarily, from the fact that the government hasn't made mandates for security and our power grids are privately owned in most cases so it's up to them to protect their own stuff.  That's not a problem that China and/or Russia have to deal with.

 
This is not an area that has been overlooked.  Congress has been throwing money specifically at NCSU ECE dept. with interest in the Smart Grids and Protection schemes of Power Systems for the last 15 years.  👍

 
beer 30 said:
That insinuates they weren't before this power outage. We, as Americans, take our level of comfort & security for granted in a BIG way.

🐑 Baaaa  :P
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I just presume based on our defense spending that would we have start of the art hacking as well. I know our defense systems are lacking but I assumed the entire world is all spying on each other.

 
[icon] said:
We are reportedly “aggressively probing” Russian power grid, including deploying malware that could allow us to take it over / shut it down if we wanted. Realistically if that’s what’s being reported, the truth is likely far more advanced. 

The question is, where do we think other nations are against us? Are the capable or close to capable of shutting down our power grid? 
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Why are we reporting this stuff?

 
The Commish said:
As of three years ago, yes.  I haven't seen any shift of funding to move us towards cyber security that would advance our progress past it's current trajectory.  But, knowing that area, that might be by design.  That's from the attack perspective.  From the defense perspective, our problems stem, primarily, from the fact that the government hasn't made mandates for security and our power grids are privately owned in most cases so it's up to them to protect their own stuff.  That's not a problem that China and/or Russia have to deal with. 
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Not to turn this into a political thread, but I cannot think of one thing that the government performs more efficiently and effectively than a private company. 

 
ThreeThousand said:
Not to turn this into a political thread, but I cannot think of one thing that the government performs more efficiently and effectively than a private company. 
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This seems like a weird thing to post in a thread about electricity reliability post-Enron and the deregulation-triggered California blackouts, but :shrug:

 
ThreeThousand said:
The Commish said:
As of three years ago, yes.  I haven't seen any shift of funding to move us towards cyber security that would advance our progress past it's current trajectory.  But, knowing that area, that might be by design.  That's from the attack perspective.  From the defense perspective, our problems stem, primarily, from the fact that the government hasn't made mandates for security and our power grids are privately owned in most cases so it's up to them to protect their own stuff.  That's not a problem that China and/or Russia have to deal with. 
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Not to turn this into a political thread, but I cannot think of one thing that the government performs more efficiently and effectively than a private company. 
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Not sure what that has to do with my post :confused:   I was merely pointing out that in our case, private companies have to act.  The government can't wave a wand and make them do things not passed through legislation.  As has been shown, it's pretty clear our politicians have very little knowledge of technology and seem to be pretty naive to the entire space.  

In these other countries the governments don't have that sort of reliance or level of ignorance.

 
Recommend watching the VICE documentary on youtube on the county in New York where every police department in the county was held for ransom with Malware.

 
[icon] said:
Not many folks.

People start losing their #### if power is out for a day or two due to a Storm. 
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I have food and water nailed down.  Plus a generator but I want to buy a shipping container and use that for storage, trying to convince the wife.  Also would make it into a huge faraday cage.

 
bucksoh said:
I have food and water nailed down.  Plus a generator but I want to buy a shipping container and use that for storage, trying to convince the wife.  Also would make it into a huge faraday cage.
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I might be wrong because I haven't really kept up with it after I read the book but most everything susceptible to an EMP that should be enclosed in a Faraday cage (or whatever the  government high tech stuff is called) isn't. Would love to hear from an expert in the field if there are any on the board in regards to "hardening" our facilities to withstand something like this. Whether from a foreign power or the sun.

Y'all should read this, 352 pages One Second After. One of the biggest problems that manifests itself quickly is the transport of food ceases. We grow more food in this country than probably the next 50 countries combined but most all of it isn't grown at the local level. It gets trucked in. Think what happens when that immediately ceases. Unless you have a decent sized garden out back you're screwed. Another quick hitter, we've managed to extend our lifespan through medicine, vitamins, etc. All that goes away as well. Think of all the people that require insulin to survive, they probably have about 2-3 months. There is no refrigeration to keep your stuff cool. Old folks homes? Most of the inhabitants are gone in the first month. Think the worst of Katrina/Harvey but with no hope of getting the grid back up because it's all fried and nobody has an extra flux capacitor or 200 sitting around to install. Generator power will only last so long, you need gas/propane to run them, where is that going to come from? Hope y'all have a decent mountain bike because the only vehicles that will run will be circa 1950.

Can't wait!

 
beer 30 said:
I pimp the book “One Second After” all the time about an EMP strike against the US that gives what I think is a pretty realistic picture of how society would devolve quickly into a Lord of the Flies situation. I don’t think our power grid could handle anything like that so yea, I don’t think it would take much to humble the US. Our political heroes talk incessantly about improvements to our national infrastructure but it won’t happen until something catastrophic occurs. My option anyhow.

could the Russians or Chines do it? Probably. I’d bet heavy on the Chinese as they steal everything, not sure Russia has kept up but if we can do it, it’s a safe bet they can too.
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Just ordered from Amazon.  Thanks!  

 
bucksoh said:
A better question is who is prepared for a grid shutdown?
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I am.  I have my grab bag, a supply of 4 thousand MREs, 23 AR-15s, 3 gallons of water, 97 cans of Bush baked beans (country style), and tons of yankee candles for light.

 
The Commish said:
Not sure what that has to do with my post :confused:   I was merely pointing out that in our case, private companies have to act.  The government can't wave a wand and make them do things not passed through legislation.  As has been shown, it's pretty clear our politicians have very little knowledge of technology and seem to be pretty naive to the entire space.  

In these other countries the governments don't have that sort of reliance or level of ignorance.
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My apologies - I read "our power grids are privately owned in most cases so it's up to them to protect their own stuff" as "government owned is better".  You're right you didn't say that.

 
ThreeThousand said:
My apologies - I read "our power grids are privately owned in most cases so it's up to them to protect their own stuff" as "government owned is better".  You're right you didn't say that.
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Gotcha...no, it's just a hurdle and since private business as driven by bottom line, investment necessary in the arena is not likely until they are shown the problem.  At best, they'll do the minimum to say "we tried".  This is something these other countries don't have to deal with.  It would be helpful if we had politicians who knew about technology and what's coming, but we don't and that's going to show to be a huge problem in the not too distant future IMO.  Not just in this, but other areas as well.  The third grade phishing email approach seems to be rather efficient...that has to change.

 
Ilov80s said:
Are we? That surprises me
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Yes we are. Our power grid is protected by the private companies that supply power for money. Those companies are regulated by the NERC (North American Electric Reliability Corporation), to make sure they are secure. The problem is NERC is comprised of members of those companies. In other words those that are in charge of making money are in charge of regulating how secure those companies are, and thus the members or NERC are more worried about making money than being secure, not to mention that it's hard to get everyone to comply. Bigger companies have the means for better security, but not the smaller ones. And catastrophic failures can happen due to breaches to those little companies that snowball through the grid to the bigger ones. 

Also, according to the research Ted Koppel has done in his book Lights Out, he believes that the Russians and Chinese have had the ability to shut us down for a few years now but haven't done so due to the fact that their economies depend on ours too much. The real fear is that if the Chinese and Russians can do it, eventually either a rogue state like N. Korea could do it or a terrorist organization. He said that those two things aren't that far off and where we should really be concerned because N. Korea or Terrorist groups don't have any stake in our economy.

On top of that, this country's plans to react to such an event are laughable. The head of Home Land Security at the time told Koppel that should such an unlikely event occur, they would simply evacuate NYC. The former head of Home Land said not only is that not the plan (that there was no plan), and that evacuating NYC was physically not possible. Not before the water runs out in a couple of days and food runs out in a week. 

 
[icon] said:
Not many folks.

People start losing their #### if power is out for a day or two due to a Storm. 
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Here's a sobering fact. The average grocery store has 3 days of food in it for those that live within it's radius of customers. The average American household has 3 days of food in it as well. These numbers are skewed a bit on the latter stat. Someone living in a college dorm or a one bedroom studio in a large city are going to have far less food than maybe a family of four with a huge pantry in the suburbs, but either way, in less than a couple weeks, once bulk food transportation ceases, there is no more food. 

But the biggest killer is water. Water borne illnesses would kill way more than starvation. 

 
TheFanatic said:
Here's a sobering fact. The average grocery store has 3 days of food in it for those that live within it's radius of customers. The average American household has 3 days of food in it as well. These numbers are skewed a bit on the latter stat. Someone living in a college dorm or a one bedroom studio in a large city are going to have far less food than maybe a family of four with a huge pantry in the suburbs, but either way, in less than a couple weeks, once bulk food transportation ceases, there is no more food. 

But the biggest killer is water. Water borne illnesses would kill way more than starvation. 
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Yea I forgot about about that cool fact. Think about this, how many people know how to make a fire these days? I mean without a lighter or matches. Why do I ask? Well if you want to drink anything, you're going to need to boil it and let your mind wander from there...  I live next to the Catawba river in SC. Recently there has been a lot of rain causing some major flooding. They mentioned this weekend that because of the flooding, 100,000 gallons of raw sewage got dumped into the Catawba. The same river 100's of people were tubing/kayaking/canoeing/skiing on this weekend. Now image that's your water supply and there are no waste water treatment plants to clean it, yummy eh?

Big cities go anarchy first, people that live remote will be the best off but at some point whatever eventually leaves the big cities will be coming their way looking for "stuff". One farmer against a mob doesn't stand a chance.

 
beer 30 said:
Yea I forgot about about that cool fact. Think about this, how many people know how to make a fire these days? I mean without a lighter or matches. Why do I ask? Well if you want to drink anything, you're going to need to boil it and let your mind wander from there...  I live next to the Catawba river in SC. Recently there has been a lot of rain causing some major flooding. They mentioned this weekend that because of the flooding, 100,000 gallons of raw sewage got dumped into the Catawba. The same river 100's of people were tubing/kayaking/canoeing/skiing on this weekend. Now image that's your water supply and there are no waste water treatment plants to clean it, yummy eh?

Big cities go anarchy first, people that live remote will be the best off but at some point whatever eventually leaves the big cities will be coming their way looking for "stuff". One farmer against a mob doesn't stand a chance.
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The farmers I know around here have guns, lots of them, and many of them illegal.  And they all know each other.  By the time city dwellers make their way to the outskirts they will be facing a lot more than "one farmer."  More like a small, heavily armed military.

 
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