Charlie Steiner
Footballguy
Made me dislike QT that much more. Not because of the twist itself but how it was clumsily added. The 'twist' that got me was the Lincoln letter. Totally bought it at the beginning.
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- Thread starter Ilov80s
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
This is part of the 1/3 act that I hated. Like I said before, I was actually on board for the 2nd act once they got to Minnie's, but QT pulled the rug out from under me by: 1. doing the dumb v.o., 2. having the "twist" of Tatum being under the floor the whole time, and 3. Going his usual Grindhouse route starting with the poisoning of Russel and feeling the need to spray blood all over the place (again, mostly directed towards JJL's direction which he seems to enjoy a little too much in his movies).
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Agreed. I felt there was a way to handle the mystery or even use the twist in a smoother way but it was just really clumsy. Which we shouldn’t expect from such a veteran film maker. I would love to know what’s in the extended version. I can’t imagine what the regular version was “missing”.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Isn't this the 4th of QTs movies and the 3rd in a row where somebody gets their junk shot?
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
May i tell the entire flaw of the film, above & beyond however i may feel about how Tarantino makes movies? Or aren't we going there yet?
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I did love that scene "of course it's bull####" (or something like that), and the bit about disarming white folks.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Charlie Steiner
Footballguy
Considering how a tone of distrust was established pretty much right way, I feel I let my guard down about the letter, and that's what upset me. As a plot point, it was brilliant, but I kick myself for not being as quick on the uptake about it.
The 'disarming white folks' line felt a little too contemporary to me, but when directors want to make a social comment, they do it however they want.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
The Yoke of God.
For good or ill, the personality of every non-native American of the late 19th or early 20th century was a reaction to God, grounded in the choice to accept or reject the fight between god & the devil for your soul. The Western as a genre fit the Hays Code perfectly on that basis - that a fella or a gal made that choice & paid that price. Zero sum.
The characters in Hateful 8 simply don't work because none of them have made that choice - they are all modern characters, unburdened by salvation or perdition. And, by the actions of his characters and motive of his stories, the writer/director makes it clear he is not transposing modern characters intentionally to see the affect of the milieu upon them. He just missed the essential element of the reactive patterns of every one of his characters, rendering his tale an immature, unsalvageable effort from the start.
For good or ill, the personality of every non-native American of the late 19th or early 20th century was a reaction to God, grounded in the choice to accept or reject the fight between god & the devil for your soul. The Western as a genre fit the Hays Code perfectly on that basis - that a fella or a gal made that choice & paid that price. Zero sum.
The characters in Hateful 8 simply don't work because none of them have made that choice - they are all modern characters, unburdened by salvation or perdition. And, by the actions of his characters and motive of his stories, the writer/director makes it clear he is not transposing modern characters intentionally to see the affect of the milieu upon them. He just missed the essential element of the reactive patterns of every one of his characters, rendering his tale an immature, unsalvageable effort from the start.
Man of Constant Sorrow
Footballguy
I was disappointed.
I agree. I was hoping for a further delving into "frontier justice" and its uncertainty - which was touched upon earlier. But ... alas...
While I do like thew film, it could have been much much better, imo, if it had taken this route.
Charlie Steiner
Footballguy
Man of Constant Sorrow
Footballguy
Me too.
I agree on all points.
If I ever watch the regular version, I might be able to tell you. I'll see how my schedule looks.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Man of Constant Sorrow
Footballguy
I was forming a potential counter argument to your hypothesis until ... the bold. You obviously see it and address it. But, I am still thinking on the evidence.
This may be a good reason for me the watch the regular version, as I could then answer 80's question and view it from your perspective on this.
I am not disagreeing, rather I am curious now.
need2know
Footballguy
the entire Lincoln letter storyline was great and one of the better things about the movie
Charlie Steiner
Footballguy
This is one of the things that frustrates me about QT. He has some moments of brilliance but is autistic most of the time such that it's not worth it to me to wade through the 99.9% crap for that .1% clever/interesting bit. It's like he's trying to prove how clever he is by trying to outthink the audience and usually outthinks himself as well in the process.
need2know
Footballguy
hes just one of those directors where you have to deal with some BS throughout his movies but the good stuff outweighs the bad for me. granted with QT there is more than most.
but overall i still liked it so i give it like a B-. def not one of my QT favs, but still a decent flick
Charlie Steiner
Footballguy
To be fair, most directors are probably like that, and to give him his due, he does seem able to coax memorable performances from his actors. The biggest turn-off for me about QT is the prevalence of gore/violence/stuff that makes folks feel uncomfortable.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
need2know
Footballguy
lol. thats one of the things i like about him.
he seems to like seeing dip/tobacco juice get thrown into peoples faces which is kinda gross/weird. pretty sure i have seen that in multiple movies
need2know
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
QT definitely overthinks things trying to be clever which is not a problem in Magnificent 7 or any John Sturges movie I’ve seen. They are so different in their approaches to movie making.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I would be curious to hear your take on it if you watched it- especially since you seem to be the most pro H8 person here and everyone so far has said they prefer M7.still havent seen the old one
need2know
Footballguy
i will try to watch it soon. havent really watched anything in weeks. its on amazon right
Man of Constant Sorrow
Footballguy
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
I liked The Magnificent Seven but would have liked to like it more.
The plot limits the possibilities by hunkering them down in the village too soon and for too long. They should have been able to continue the Odyssey pattern by which the Seven were formed with a chase of some kind. Perhaps one of the Seven was being pursued unfairly himself and the band had to resolve that first or in addition or, best, entwined somehow in the defeat of the bandits. Or else the bandit band needed to be pursued and they perhaps lure the Seven away and double back on the town to make the Seven both re-take & defend the village. Just seemed a waste to have these glorious characters digging trenches and waiting in dread. More showcasing would have made it a lot more fun.
The plot limits the possibilities by hunkering them down in the village too soon and for too long. They should have been able to continue the Odyssey pattern by which the Seven were formed with a chase of some kind. Perhaps one of the Seven was being pursued unfairly himself and the band had to resolve that first or in addition or, best, entwined somehow in the defeat of the bandits. Or else the bandit band needed to be pursued and they perhaps lure the Seven away and double back on the town to make the Seven both re-take & defend the village. Just seemed a waste to have these glorious characters digging trenches and waiting in dread. More showcasing would have made it a lot more fun.
Man of Constant Sorrow
Footballguy
In regards to M7 - it is a great movie that I believe only suffers from the same thing that most movies of its era do ... namely, they aren't as realistic to us as modern movies are. I forgive them for that.
A fun example on this: remember the intense training that went into teaching the villagers to "squeeze" a trigger rather than "pull" it? Well ... now think back to the scene when Chico (the young guy of the 7 - Horst Buchholz) was "throwing bullets" at the enemy ... and how he exclaimed that they were there to teach the villagers how to fight.
Also - and hate to pick on poor Chico - but this kid was duuuuumb ... think of his drunken scene in the bar when he was spraying bullets around ol'Yul. Yeah. If I were Yul, I'd be all - ok, he's drunk and spraying lead around me ... nuthin' to worry bout. F that - I'd kill em - or at least stop him.
And, in regards to Chico's super dangerous approach towards the baddies in the woods that everyone rolled their eyes over? Well, if I am not mistaken, they all then took that path .. including some women and children. OK.
LOL. Like I said, I forgive these kinds of things in movies of this era, but they are so fun to find. I will prolly think of more later.
A fun example on this: remember the intense training that went into teaching the villagers to "squeeze" a trigger rather than "pull" it? Well ... now think back to the scene when Chico (the young guy of the 7 - Horst Buchholz) was "throwing bullets" at the enemy ... and how he exclaimed that they were there to teach the villagers how to fight.
Also - and hate to pick on poor Chico - but this kid was duuuuumb ... think of his drunken scene in the bar when he was spraying bullets around ol'Yul. Yeah. If I were Yul, I'd be all - ok, he's drunk and spraying lead around me ... nuthin' to worry bout. F that - I'd kill em - or at least stop him.
And, in regards to Chico's super dangerous approach towards the baddies in the woods that everyone rolled their eyes over? Well, if I am not mistaken, they all then took that path .. including some women and children. OK.
LOL. Like I said, I forgive these kinds of things in movies of this era, but they are so fun to find. I will prolly think of more later.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
One thing i noted from having re-watched M7 within a year of seeing the re-make - America lost itself somewhere between the making of the two. Oh, that we had the savvy of the new and the honor of the old. If there actually was a point where we had both, it was like sheeps...............excuse me? ......ships?......you sure?... ............ships in the night
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Eephus
Footballguy
A big difference was in the way the movies handled character development. The best part of M7 for me was the assembly of the group. Each character was introduced efficiently and provided with just enough motivation to risk their lives for the villagers. Sturges and screenwriter William Roberts didn't dwell on backstory as the characters were introduced although a couple of key characters were fleshed out later. When Yul Brynner was asked where he was from, he simply pointed backwards. Tarantino would have taken that opportunity for a five minute monologue.
M7 showed who the cowboys were. H8's characters, like Tarantino himself love to talk about themselves. That's not bad in itself, QT can write clever dialog but as it turned out in H8 a lot of the exposition turned out to be a charade. The characters told elaborate lies about who they were and why they were there. In the end, it turned out to be another waste of the audience's time. It's fitting that the central prop of the movie, the Lincoln letter was a fraud.
Eephus
Footballguy
M7 lagged after their first encounter with the bandits. Chico's infiltration of the bandits' camp was silly and the plot device of Calvera allowing the Seven to leave the village was unnecessary. It gave Calvera and the Seven a good scene together and the Seven a chance to renew their pledge to help the villagers but it seemed artificial. A desperate bandit wouldn't give his enemies a chance to escape. It's been a while since I've seen Seven Samurai but I think both of these M7 plot devices diverged from the original.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
This is probably giving QT too much credit but is a bit of commentary on the western genre and western lore. Guys in John Wayne movies and movies like The Magnificent Seven are often portrayed as heroes and men with honor but isn’t that really all BS? Aren’t they all mostly just violent nasty men who don’t know any way but the way of the gun?
I don’t recall if they diverged or not but I did appreciate the length of M7. I liked S7 a lot but I’m not sure it needed to be quite so long.
Man of Constant Sorrow
Footballguy
Ah ... great one!
I thought of it ... now ... thnx.
Yep. "Plot device" is the perfect word to use. I also kind of lump this into the "era" thing I mentioned. It seems that many movies of this type let artistic intent over-ride other concerns to a degree that approaches or surpasses the line of necessity. I really don't know why, as I am not a writer. But as a viewer, I have come to accept/appreciate it as a part of the "form". It is kind of like abstract/impressionistic/etc. paintings that diverge from reality for a reason ... but that "reason" can be subjective in its validity or success.
Another good example of this was when Britt (James Coburn) came to the camp of the first three bandits only to find their horses. He decided to wait. Good. But, then he sits down in plain sight under a tree and begins to examine a flower of some type - oblivious to the outer world it seemed. A hunter would not do this, but this character would for reasons other than the logical task at hand. Why? I think that is up for interpretation. But, I do not think it was written to portray a perfectly realistic reaction.
Eephus
Footballguy
That's implicit in Western mythology. The hero is often a man outside of society. His talents and past life separates him from the people he saves. Shane is a good example of this but there are many others.
The characters in H8 were outside of society as well. There was never any real attempt to connect them to the normal world in Red Rock . My problem was with the way Tarantino intentionally obscured the characters' real identities. Not providing character detail to create intrigue is one thing but H8 overcompensated by giving Mobray, Bob and Joe Gage pages of dialog where they spun elaborate, unnecessary tales about their false identities.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Oh yeah it was overdone for sure. As for my point about commenting on the men from outside of society. Shane ofcourse is a good example- but that movie shows us that even though Shane is a hardnened killer, he's a hero. All the heroes have some mythology of backstory that makes them a hero but it's all BS. Shane was a murderer. This idea has certainly been done before and done better. I did like none of the H8 were mythologized or softened and the bounty hunter and the sherrif and the soldier and the gangster are all the same.
jwb
Footballguy
I've seen both of these previously, own both on dvd, and am a big QT fan overall. And both were as I remembered when I re-watched them for this - I liked M7 much better
The thing with H8 that I keep coming back to is I wanted to like it much more than I actually did. I love QT's movies, and even the things he produced / wrote / had a hand in automatically make my movie shelf. When i first saw it, I felt H8 was his weakest effort, and this recent viewing confirmed that. The casting, especially adding Goggins to the mix, really made me think this would be his best film. Nearly 3 hours of QT-style dialog with these greats? How could you not like that? I envisioned Boyd Crowder verbally sparring with Jules.
The funny thing is, we kind of got that, but it didn't work for me. It all felt very forced. I can't explain much else beyond that, because on the surface, it's everything it was supposed to be, yet it felt so sterile. Maybe it would have been a better film at 90-120 minutes - maybe there would have been more tension. We got too much, and in that nearly 3 hour length, it all got lost. I was bored by the end. Maybe he shouldn't have made 2 westerns in a row? This same cast in another era/story might have produced a much better film (am very much looking forward to his Hollywood film).
M7... what else can you say? It's a great way to spend an evening. The Yul and Eli show is fantastic. It might not be as refined or as meaningful as its Seven Samurai inspiration, but it's more fun ("the walls were built to keep you in" is akin to "now yous can't leave"). The one complaint I have is I could do without counting up to 7, and the reiterations of "how many are there"? We get it - there's 7 of them. Other than that, grab some popcorn and take in a fun old-style western.
The thing with H8 that I keep coming back to is I wanted to like it much more than I actually did. I love QT's movies, and even the things he produced / wrote / had a hand in automatically make my movie shelf. When i first saw it, I felt H8 was his weakest effort, and this recent viewing confirmed that. The casting, especially adding Goggins to the mix, really made me think this would be his best film. Nearly 3 hours of QT-style dialog with these greats? How could you not like that? I envisioned Boyd Crowder verbally sparring with Jules.
The funny thing is, we kind of got that, but it didn't work for me. It all felt very forced. I can't explain much else beyond that, because on the surface, it's everything it was supposed to be, yet it felt so sterile. Maybe it would have been a better film at 90-120 minutes - maybe there would have been more tension. We got too much, and in that nearly 3 hour length, it all got lost. I was bored by the end. Maybe he shouldn't have made 2 westerns in a row? This same cast in another era/story might have produced a much better film (am very much looking forward to his Hollywood film).
M7... what else can you say? It's a great way to spend an evening. The Yul and Eli show is fantastic. It might not be as refined or as meaningful as its Seven Samurai inspiration, but it's more fun ("the walls were built to keep you in" is akin to "now yous can't leave"). The one complaint I have is I could do without counting up to 7, and the reiterations of "how many are there"? We get it - there's 7 of them. Other than that, grab some popcorn and take in a fun old-style western.
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jwb
Footballguy
YES - not so much his other efforts, but this definitely sums up H8 to me. QT consciously tried to make a QT movie.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I also wonder how much the leaking of the script impacted this. For those that don't kmow, the script for the movie was leaked online. QT almost just canceled the whole project over it but I do believe instead he rewrote somethings, including multiple endings and even did some live reads of the script aith an audience. I wonder how much that leak impacted QT's story and level of self awareness.
jwb
Footballguy
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
the thing i liked most about the Scruggs thing the Coens did was that they turned the the sparsity - of food, of comfort, of talk, of trust - inherent to cowboy life back on itself. in H*8, the willingness of people who've already given proof of having chosen the closed-off life to be elaborate at the drop of a Stetson immediately disqualifies their palaver as valid intercourse between frontier people and makes an inside con impossible.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
he got it wrong and there was no one to stop him. he writes things that actors wanna play, so he gets away with that.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Yeah there is no way in hell you can view the movie as some kind of accurate portrayal of real events. It's certainly quite theatric in that sense. Like you said the Agatha Christia element or as another review noted, it's an ultraviolent version of the movie Clue. The over-stylized, dialogue heavy theatrics are sort of a staple from QT thoigh.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
Moonlight
Footballguy
Regarding the Magnificent 7 (classic). First half is outstanding which culminates with the attack/defense of the village.
Movie IMO falls apart in 2nd half and makes no sense
Spoiler Alert
First, The bandits after losing half of their men decide to attack the village again. You mean tell me there isn't another defenseless village in all Mexico they could plunder at will.
Second, Chico wanders around the bandit camp even engaging the bandit leader in conversation and no one recognizes that he isn't a member of the bandit group. It isn't like the bandit numbers equal a battalion but rather there are about 40 men and half of them have already been killed.
Third, after the 7 are captured by the bandits. They are not executed but rather they are given their freedom and even more remarkably given their guns back. They do not even have to give their word they will not return. What kind of ruthless thieving bandits are these guys! I guess nobody had any friends or relatives or anyone who owed them money regarding the 20 bandits that were killed.
Movie IMO falls apart in 2nd half and makes no sense
Spoiler Alert
First, The bandits after losing half of their men decide to attack the village again. You mean tell me there isn't another defenseless village in all Mexico they could plunder at will.
Second, Chico wanders around the bandit camp even engaging the bandit leader in conversation and no one recognizes that he isn't a member of the bandit group. It isn't like the bandit numbers equal a battalion but rather there are about 40 men and half of them have already been killed.
Third, after the 7 are captured by the bandits. They are not executed but rather they are given their freedom and even more remarkably given their guns back. They do not even have to give their word they will not return. What kind of ruthless thieving bandits are these guys! I guess nobody had any friends or relatives or anyone who owed them money regarding the 20 bandits that were killed.
Eephus
Footballguy
H8 is more of a locked room mystery than a Western. It's set in the old West but it has little of the typical mythology of the genre. It lacks many of the devices of a locked room mystery too. I suppose Samuel Jackson's character plays the detective role for part of the film when he tries to figure out who poison OB and John Ruth but even that turns out to be a secondary ruse once Channing Tatum's character appears.
jwb
Footballguy
I love when Costner just wastes arm-sling guy, who was set up as the feared hired gunslinger. That guy almost never dies quickly.
